Some fact over fiction

[Unregistered]

This is some misinformation with a few folks around here
about hand gun caliber and stopping power. I think most
would do well to read "Dr. Fullers ballistic study". It can
be accessed on the web by keying in the above.

Among other things, hand guns don't lift or knock people
over. If this were so, simple physics dictates the shooter would
be knock back when dischargeing a round.

Fact: the energy expended on a target in ft/lbs is equal the
the guns recoil in energy in ft/lbs.

Fact: penetration is far more important than expansion.

It makes for some interesting reading.

[CAV]

Your "facts" are not entirely "factual".

1. Energy is bled-off and expended through several processes during a firing cycle (recoil, springs, gas expansion, ect)

2. Penetration v. expansion - Your statement is an opinion, not a fact. There are multiple variables that impact "target effect" including the most important factor, placement. ;)

You might want to expand on your thought a little more.......


BTW, here is an interesting site to visit. Nothing like real world data. Stopping power (http://www.powernet.net/~eich1/sp.html)

[.45 COLT]

Marshal, Sanow, Pi, Fackler, Fuller. Everybody has their own close-held ideas on this subject and everybody has the “facts” to prove their theory.

My own feeling is that a large, expanding, heavy bullet driven at moderately high velocity beats the crap out of any lightweight whizbang that achieves the almighty 100% “energy dump”, which seems to be the Holy Grail with some (self-styled) experts. My heavyweight is enough to break through bone, create a huge wound channel and blow out a large chunk of flesh upon exit. Who cares if it still has energy left that it didn’t expend on the target? It has done all the damage it possibly can, and a whole lot more than if it had stopped about halfway through or on impact with bone.

An argument I hear against “overpenetration” is that an “innocent bystander” might be injured. That only holds water if every shot fired is a hit on the intended target. Anybody who believes that not only has never engaged in a firefight but also suffers from delusions.

DC

[eli95]

45 Colt:

I agree, the 45 was put into service because the 38 would not knock down the enemy in the Phillippines, while it did not always kill with one round it KNOCK THEM DOWN.

check the history!

[Glenn Bartley]

I agree a .45 is a great round but 'knock down' power is a bs play on words. History is often full of bull stink and this is a fine example. 'Fall down' would be much more applicable a term than knock down as the bullet puts into motion a number of things that causes a person to fall down, and it is the energy of the round actually knocking someone down. There have been a number of people who have shot themselves in the chest while wearing body armor, some of the shots coming from 45s and some from various other calibers. None of them were knocked down - none even fell down. What someone implies that the 45 caliber round conveys enough energy into the target (in this case an adult male human) to actually knock it down, I find it rather amusing, and when someone says that the energy of a round lifted a bad guy up and propeled him through the air, well I believe it quite farcical. On the other hand, I could strike you while you were wearing body armor, and I could conceivably knock you down, especially if I used a full body blow. Yet it is unlikely that my body or any part of it would penetrate your body cavity whether or not armor was being worn, just as it is unlikely that the force of my blow would lift you airborne and propel you through the air.

And yes energy is bled off but in both directions. The energy of recoil felt by the shooter is quite close to the amount of energy transferred by the bullet to the person being shot. Of course one of the big differences is that the person who is shot has tissue damage from penetration, and suffers shock due to that rapid tissue damage, blood loss, impact of the projectile and so forth. A 45 does that work much nicer as compared to a 9mm, but I will take what is at hand and hope for the all critical shot placement. Of course it is nicer to have a round with better penetration capabilities should the adversary be wearing body armor, but in that case even a 45 may fall short. Then again this is when shot placement comes to play, and as some would say: two to the chest one to the head....

By the way, a quick 8 shots to the chest cavity of someone wearing body armor, would probably hurt a bit more with the 45 than would a similar amount of shots from a nine, yet I wonder though which would be more likely to penetrate the modern body armor better.

As for repalcement of the 38, I believe the 38 was also replaced, in great part, because of the insufficient penetration properties of the round in the body armor worn by the warriors in the Philippines. Of course some may claim that the 45 is a one shot man stopper (heck I have even heard that if anyone is shot in the arm with a 45 he goes down immediately - LOL), but my guess would be they have a nasty surprise coming if they ever shoot someone once with a 45 and then assume the threat has ceased because they were shooting wonder bullets.

Rather shoot till the threatening adversary stops, then make sure the threat is truly over with, as you help assure your own safety behind any available cover. That way you are more like to enjoy a few :beer: while you tell your 'war story' at a later time.

All the best,
Glenn B

[.45 COLT]

Just for the record, the .38 that was used in the Phillipines was NOT the .38 Special, as most people assume. It was the .38 Long Colt, a real pipsqueak of a cartridge.

DC

[Glenn Bartley]

DC,

While I did not realize it was a .38 Colt, neither did I think it was the 38 Special. I thought it was the .38 S&W. If I remember correctly, the .38 S&W preceded the .38 Colt in manufacture, and as far as I am aware, the .38 Colt was basically a knock off of the .38 S&W differing only in bullet shape.

I am sure someone out there is more up on this than me, but I do seem to remember atrue gun aficionado telling me this way back when...

Whichever it was, neither one had much power to it.

All the best,
Glenn B:beer:

[Glenn Bartley]

Whoops did not see the LONG in the .38 Long Colt...

[.45 COLT]

The .38 Long Colt was adopted by the United States military in 1892, replacing the .45 Colt. Service in the Spanish-American War and the Phillipines Insurrection showed that it was a pretty sorry military round and it was replaced by the .45 ACP in 1911.

The .38 S&W was introduced around 1877. I can’t find any record of it ever being used by the American military. It was, however, used by the British military, who called it the ‘380/200’.

The .38 S&W Special (.38 Special) was brought out in 1902 as S&W’s answer to the anemic .38 Long Colt, but the Long Colt remained the official chambering for the military until 1911. This is the cartridge that Colt tried to rip off, coming out with the .38 Colt in 1909, created simply by changing the bullet profile of the .38 Special.

DC

[tasco 74]

nobody mentioned my caliber of choice.. the .357 magnum... i beleive that the .357 mag will stop anything in north america. i'm wondering what some of the reverse loaded hbwc would do to a flesh target. they are loaded to move at about 1200 fps.

[.45 COLT]

Originally posted by tasco 74
i'm wondering what some of the reverse loaded hbwc would do to a flesh target. they are loaded to move at about 1200 fps.

Actually, they won't perform well at all at .357 velocities. You're MUCH better off loading your cartridges with a Speer Gold Dot or a Hornady XTP. The reversed HBWC might do a fair job at .38 Special speeds, any faster and it will start coming apart and folding back on itself, reducing both penetration and wound channel volume.

DC

[41mag]

would it really come apart?it seems like it would just tumble erratically.like trying to throw a badmiton birde feathers first.

[.45 COLT]

would it really come apart?it seems like it would just tumble erratically.like trying to throw a badmiton birde feathers first
At short, combat-distance range, 5 or so yards, it'll fly fairly true. When you push it up around 1000 fps, it comes apart and folds. I've tried to push it faster just to see if I can make it disintegrate, all I've succeded in doing is blowing a hole straight through the bullet, leaving part of it in the barrel. Maybe with a different powder, but even at the lower speed, the thin lips of the cup come off.

You're right about tumbling, it will at any longer range. I've seen tumbling as close as 10 yards, don't even play with it any more. Better results from a LSWCHP I cast myself.

DC

[Glenn Bartley]

I have seen about a dozen or so guns that have basically blown up because people decided to customize their ammo - including reversing bullets. If you decide to customize your ammo beyond factory specs (extra powder, experimental bullet shapes, reversing a bullet, etc...) you are taking a lot of risks. DC is lucky enough not to have quickly pulled the trigger a second time after leaving part of a round in the barrel. Sure you may know enough to be careful when experimenting, but someone else may not have been so smart. You are taking the risk of ruing a fine firearm, hurting yourself, and being thrown in jail for using a round that you designed as a 'more potent killer' thereby showuing the court your intent was to kill not to stop. Why take those risks. Ammo companies experiment all the time, under controlled conditions, and produce some pretty fine ammo for defensive rounds. I prefer to be on the safe side of my pistols, and I prefer to keep the safe side safe by using only factory fresh rounds that have been examined by me for obvious defects before loading. You guys really have me wondering why you would experiment like this because I see little benefit to it. Oh well, shoot safely.:)
All the best,
GB

[41mag]

its just like changing the wheels or swapping out a cam in a perfectly good truck.did it work fine before?sure.some just like to tinker.
just because you make a max expanding,super penetrating,jello obliterating,fire breathing,SAAMI spec round doesn't mean that it'll go into a carry gun.besides,without people tinkering at home some very neat/handy inventions might never have been.

[Rich Z]

Heck, if people didn't just like to tinker, we probably would all just be shooting round balls of lead out of our guns.

Have the bullet manufacturers thought of everything possible to think of in bullet design? Maybe, maybe not. I believe that many of the breakthrough discoveries in technology were found by accident or keen observation of something completely unrelated to its eventual application.

Do you think someone intuitively knew that if you combine potassium nitrate, sulfur and charcoal together and put a match to it that it would explode? Probably the person watching the first person to do that found a suitable application for that newfound information that he used right after the funeral of his friend. :laugh:

Heck, I remember reading an article about lasers back when I was a kid. The article was entitled: "Lasers: A solution looking for a problem." Nobody knew what the heck to do with them back then, but it was a neat discovery.

So, tinkering is necessary if we are to learn something new. It may be at some cost, not nonetheless it is an expense that must be spent.

Heck, I learned as a kid that you can't make a rocket out of an empty CO2 cartridge. And I have a scar on my forehead that is stamped PAID for the cost of this knowledge. :headbang:

[Unregistered]

I tinker with ammunition all the time, but not exactly blindly. I have pressure barrels and Oehler pressure testing equipment. Some experiments will run over SAAMI pressures, but they are only fired in pressure barrels - if pressure is up, that load is scrapped and is never fired in anything else.

The only factory ammunition I can't safely outdo is the Hornady Light Magnum loads - so far.

Some "factory" ammunition is unsafe. There is at least one shotshell seller on the Internet who is producing 3 1/2" loads that are running about 500 psi over SAAMI. I had never heard of his company until I was asked by a group to look at his shells. Before I did any testing, I talked with him and he quoted me a pressure figure he was running, then misquoted SAAMI spec. Seemed like a nice fellow, just misinformed. I know he has a large following of customers, even though some complain of difficult ejection. He always has a reason their gun is faulty. His pressures aren't so high as to cause a blowup, but one slip in his loading process and there is a problem. He even went so far as to tell me what components he uses, so I'm sure he isn't producing unsafe ammunition purposely. So factory ammunition isn't necessarily safe.

Factory SD ammunition pretty much all follows the Jack O'Connor school of thought - light, high velocity. I presonally don't subscribe to that. I prefer heavy, lower velocity bullets. For that, I have to manufacture my own loads.

As far as the LHBWC loads, I had heard of people doing that reversing thing and didn't think it would work too very good, especially with the soft lead swaged bullets. I set out to see one way or the other. As I said before, a Gold Dot or XTP works far better.

DC

[.45 COLT]

I don't know how I wound up Unregistered. Anyhow, previous post was me.

DC

[Rich Z]

You know, I have had a preference for the Gold Dots myself lately. Can't really say why, but something about the design just interests me. Can't say I have ever actually used the bullets for any serious work, but I do find I get satisfactory accuracy using them.

They do seem awfully similar in design to the original Black Talons, though.

Just one of those things, I guess.

[tasco 74]

blows the center out of the bullet at magnum pressures huh.. hhhhhmmmmmm very enlightening.... thanks for the info!as for the round ball thing... i shoot what i call a multi-ball load in my 6 " model 27 ... it's constructed by loading about 4 gr. bullseye then a plastic wad then 2 .32 cal. round balls then another plastic wad and crimped to hold it all together. now them are fun!!:D the .32 cal. balls do not grip the rifling so they all come out at different angles against the target. you shoot 6 rounds and get 12 hits in about a ft pattern at 3yds.

[41mag]

those can be quite a suprise to fellow shooters @ the range.
six shots=twelve holes:D

[tasco 74]

they are kind of fun 41 mag:) !! once when i was at the silhouette range with my friend i shot at the center of the chicken bank of targets an hit the 2nd and 4rth chickens. got some laughs on that one.:D


THE 2ND AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL.....

[Hard Ball]

I had to use a .357 Magnum to save my life twice.

[Smarter Gun]

:rolleyes: First, I hate unregistered people who post! If you've got an opinion, fine - Just put a name on it like the rest of us do. (This way we, all, know whom we're arguing with.) :D

Second, Yes, the 38 Long Colt is the cartridge that was used by American forces in the 1899 Philippine insurrection. IIRC, it replaced the 38 S&W which, apparently, was an American military cartridge.

Third, IMO, Evan Marshall takes himself much too seriously. I don't place a lot of store in most of what he has to say. His viewpoints, too often, come across to me as being rather priggish.

Fourth, Somewhere in the, 'this or that caliber blows 'em away' theories room should be made for the sheer PAIN of being hit with a bullet. Years ago I was shot across the ankle with a 22 caliber bullet - ouch! The impact knocked me off my feet. I very much doubt that it was expansion, energy transfer, cross-sectional density, or bullet weight that knocked me down. Instead, it was the impact and the pain! Years later I was shot across the right side of my head. (Yes, I know - this explains a lot!) I didn't go down; but I did stagger backwards and fall to one knee.

Finally, There does seem to be a, 'magic corridor' about 2" on either side of the backbone, and running from the base of the neck down to the groin. Put a decent bullet in here; and you've, pretty much, got your man. As I type this I'm troubled by a recent reading of the 1986 Miami shootout. It certainly appears that the combatant's ATTITUDE has a lot to do with the physical and emotional ability to absorb terrific carnal punishment. I guess, with the wisdom of old age, I have to conclude that ALL pistol calibers KILL; however, it's only the occasional WELL-PLACED shot that, ever, STOPS. I'm not sure, 'What' the answer is; but, I can say this; 'I will always remember Peter Hathaway Capstick's accounts about his use of a 12 gauge shotgun and double 00 buckshot to stop wounded charging lions DEAD in their tracks with head shots he made at inside 15'. Wow!!! I'd have to say that Capstick DEFINITELY put this technique to the, 'acid test'. ;)

[Rich Z]

This brings up something that has puzzled me for quite a long time. The whole concept of bullet "energy". Expressed in foot pounds, right? Well what exactly does that mean?

I have always thought it meant the equivalent energy spread over a square foot of surface area. The fact that this energy is concentrated over the frontal surface area of the bullet is what gives it penetration, as most soft materials will give way to that energy and allow the projectile to push it aside.

So let's say we have a projectile that delivers 300 ft/lbs of energy upon impact. In a case where the total energy is transferred to the target, that implies to me that the effect would be as if a 300 pound weight had been applied to one square foot of the target area. Does this sound right? But I am sure that many of you have fired rounds at logs and other materials that the round did not penetrate, and in most cases, the log never even quivers, much less gets knocked over. But if I applied 300 pounds to the side of that object, most certainly it would be pushed over.

So yeah, this has puzzled me, but since everyone uses that designation as an indication of bullet energy, then most certainly my understanding of what "foot pounds" really means must be faulty.

Anyone willing to 'splain this to me?

[Unregistered]

.45 l Colt was, and it failed miserably. Even 30-40 Krag ball rds failed to stop some of the "juramentados". The 357 is a joke when it comes to repeat hit speed, in a ccw capable gun. Those who "think" that high velocity and energy are not where it's at are simply ignorant, that's all. Get a hollowbased, solid tin .45hollowpoint, 70 grs, at 2300 fps, in a 4" barreled 460 Rowland, using 13 grs of Bullseye, and it recoils like .45 ball. Slit its nose back to the (deepened in a lathe) grease groove, and at impact, you get 3 big frags. The rear, 40 gr segment is a full wadcutter, nose heavy shape, which penetrates 10-12" of flesh. The front segments are 15 grs each, and create their own separate wound channels, 6-8" deep, as proven on ANIMAL flesh and blood, not bs jello tests. This load pierces level II body armor like it's not even there, too.

[SFC Hall]

Ever see “Last Man Standing” with Bruce Willis? Did you see what a 25 round clip of .45 ACP hardball could do? Blew the one guy back 20 feet through the air. Yep hardball .45, that’s for me…:D

[Rich Z]

Yeah man.

I've been wanting to fly out to Hollywood, California to take martial arts training. I would LOVE to be able fly through the air like they do in the movies, so I figure this is the place to learn how to do that. :roflmao1:

[Unregistered]

diff between having a bullet enter your body, and remain there, and having the bullet stopped by body armor. Rich Davis, president of Second Chance, has many times shot himself with various pistol calibers, while wearing his company's vest. It creates a bruize, and there's a visible impact, but he's always able to accurately return fire. True of .44 magnum hits, too.

The DWELL time of the impact has a lot to do with whether or not any movmement is imparted to the target. You can exert a minor amount of energy, building it slowly, and move a safe door. You can shoot that door, with a load having a lot more energy than your push has, and the door won't twitch, because the energy is dissipated (mostly as heat) as the bulllet shatters on the safe door.

[andy]

often. They are pathetically inaccurate, and at 1200 fps, lead the bore so badly that they dangerously increase pressures. That's what they will do. Unlike todays current crop of lazy cheapskates, guys of 30 years ago would take the trouble to LOAD some, and check them out, on paper targets, in water troughs, and on animals.

The .38 special has been WELL proven to be an anemic pos, for over 100 year now. 250 ft lbs, whooper crap. I can KICK you harder than that.

[andy]

make himself a lot more "bullet resistant", it's quite provable that as the tissue destruction and shock of a load increases, the odds of it sufficing increase right along with it, until you get to 98 percentile or so, at which point even 308 sp's and 12 ga slugs are proven to fail to stop men, too, with just chest hits.