J David has 0 to say about my claim

[andy]

that it's IMPOSSIBLE to shoot an attacker in the eye, 4x , with a .25 auto. If the eye was hit 4x, the last 3 were as he laid there on the floor, dropped by the first hit to the eyeball. :-)

[Rich Z]

I have talked with Dave about this situation a LOT. Bear in mind that Dave and his attacker were in a dance of death together. The attacker had a samurai sword shoved into Dave's adbomen and trying to shove it straight on through. Dave had his hand on the hilt trying to prevent the guy from doing it. They were practically nose to nose at that time.

When he reached into his pocket and remembered the .25 auto, he had only to pull it out and just about put the barrel of the gun into the eye socket of the bad guy. I'll bet he didn't even have to fully extend his arm to do that. With the adrenalin pumping and the speed up time that facing death had his mind racing, I think it would be simple to fire off 4 shots with that Beretta easily within 1 to 2 seconds. The Beretta isn't going to recoil much, and the bad guy really couldn't go anywhere quickly because the two of them were holding onto each other.

Try it with a clothing store dummy. Bet you can put those 4 shots into the head easily before it even moves. Or even use a small melon. I have a .25 Beretta and I don't believe this would be any superhuman feat at all to do.

[Aslan]

Originally posted by 223 fan
that it's IMPOSSIBLE to shoot an attacker in the eye, 4x , with a .25 auto. If the eye was hit 4x, the last 3 were as he laid there on the floor, dropped by the first hit to the eyeball. :-)

So, I guess it IS possible. How you can be so wrong so often and still be alive is a mystery.

Had you asked how it was possible instead of ATTACKING FIRST (like you always do), you probably would have gotten a polite answer and no one would be pointing out how dumb you made yourself look.

In your haste to make yourself look so big, you fell very short.

But it's always the other guy that attacks you first in the forums - right? just like this thread that YOU started with an attack.

Does it physically hurt to be that stupid?

:devil:

[andy]

after the FIRST hit to the eyeball, ANY others to the eyeball would be MURDER, delivered AFTER the attacker was incapacitated.

[Clint Boyer]

Huh?

The first shot is self defense but after that it's murder? You lost me on that one.

[andy]

the EYe STOPS the attack. firing 3 more into his eyeball, as he lays on the floor (the ONLY way 3 more shots COULD be put into the eyeball) is MURDER. The attack STOPPED, and you KEPT firing, into the head of an incapacitated man. That's MURDER. What Mirules did to Platt and Matix was MURDER. The 2 robbers were bled out, disarmed, and unable to do jack crap. Mirules walked up and shot them in the head, 3x each. Had he been a civilian, instead of a Fed, he'd be on Death Row.

[Rich Z]

BS.... YOU talk about the "splits" you can shoot and how rapid fire you are. How long would it take you to fire off 4 shots with a Beretta .25 when you are supercharged on adrenaline and fighting for your very life? You are shooting at a golf ball sized target less than 1 foot from the end of the barrel. What MOA does that equate to at 25 yards?

Secondly take ANY self defense course and take notes. They TELL you to keep on firing until the attacker is neutralized and DO NOT count on one shot doing the job. Most teach double taps as a matter of course. This is in courses taught by LEOs, btw.

[Clint Boyer]

Exactly, now if he were laying there, still, and you put more rounds in him that might be different.
The continuation of fire is what I was taught also. Don't stop after the first shot to admire your work.

[Rich Z]

Heck, in Dave's shoes, bleeding from multple stab wounds, I would have no choice but to make sure my attacker was stone dead, because I would likely be going to pass out at any moment. Once that happens and the attacker is still alive and can still move, YOU won't be waking up later on.

[gripper]

I gotta ask...Andy and GK(.223 Fan)...are you guys both the same guy?Every time someone opens up a post with the word "punk",it just shines thru...know what I mean?:D

[Hard Rock]

As long as you feel your life is in immediate lethal danger it's self defense. A hit to the eyeball is not a guaranteed fight stopper. If it doesn't penetrate the skull to cause trauma to the brain it won't stop the guy from trying to kill you.

Mike

[Aslan]

well, since he can't legally own a firearm, he can't legally take a CCW course, or he'd KNOW what is being taught and why.

You shoot and keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. You don't pause after each shot and ask your assailant if they're done attacking you.

Bleeding and in the state he was in, hell, any REASONABLE person would have emptied the gun.

Before you open your mouth, GK, you might want to try THINKING first.


:devil:

[Aslan]

Originally posted by gripper
I gotta ask...Andy and GK(.223 Fan)...are you guys both the same guy?Every time someone opens up a post with the word "punk",it just shines thru...know what I mean?:D

Oh yeah, they're the same guy. There's even at least one thread where he's holding a discussion with himself.

hey GK, have you decided which one of your names is really JJ?

:devil:

[gripper]

I still can't figure why anyone just does the reflexive "you're a " thing whenever anyone either disagrees or points out a discrepancy.You make enough enemies just living your life;why live it like an @sshole?

[84 C4]

Originally posted by gripper
I gotta ask...Andy and GK(.223 Fan)...are you guys both the same guy?Every time someone opens up a post with the word "punk",it just shines thru...know what I mean?:D

Nah, they're different people...they just happen to share the same body.;) :D

[andy]

can't be penetrated, why BOTHER with such a round, dummy? I can stick my FINGER into your brain, via the orbital socket.

[andy]

down like a ROCK. u AINT putting ANY more hits into his eye socket, cause his head is going to BOUNCE off of the deck, in 3/4 second after you get such a hit. That's 6 ft drop in 3/4 second, and no you do NOT hit such a mark again, at ALL, much less THREE MORE TIMES, , as it falls at a rate of 8 fps, bsers. Once he's falling, much less on the ground(from a hit to the eye socket), he is no LONGER an immediate threat to you,and ANY further shooting on your part is MURDER. I knew several guys who did MANY years in prison, because they were as stupid as you are about such things.

What Mirules did to Platt and Matix was MURDER, and if a civilian had done, or in the future DOES such a thing, he's going to prison, most likely indeed.

[Aslan]

Originally posted by andy
down like a ROCK. u AINT putting ANY more hits into his eye socket, cause his head is going to BOUNCE off of the deck, in 3/4 second after you get such a hit. That's 6 ft drop in 3/4 second, and no you do NOT hit such a mark again, at ALL, much less THREE MORE TIMES, , as it falls at a rate of 8 fps, bsers. Once he's falling, much less on the ground(from a hit to the eye socket), he is no LONGER an immediate threat to you,and ANY further shooting on your part is MURDER. I knew several guys who did MANY years in prison, because they were as stupid as you are about such things.

What Mirules did to Platt and Matix was MURDER, and if a civilian had done, or in the future DOES such a thing, he's going to prison, most likely indeed.

Lets try this very very slowly...

You're claiming that if you and I are locked in each others grip, that a single shot into your eyesocket will instantly cause my grip AND your grip to relax, and they you will instantly drop to the floor faster than the normal acceleration due to gravity.

You're also claiming that even though I continue to pull said trigger with gun jammed into your eye, that all subsequent shots will fail to track the gun barrel (inserted into your eye socket) and will hit someplace else.

Being jammed into your eyesocket, the barrel would be falling at the same rate as the head. Since My hand is holing on to the gun, the rate of fall would be somewhat slower. Also since we are holding on to each other, the descent would be slower still.

Not to mention that the head, being attached to a body won't fall like a rock or a basketball. The position of the body, the tension in the muscles, etc will all affect what happens.

You can claim all you want, but the know facts and the known scenarion don't necessarily support your claims.

(actually an object accelerates as it falls at 9.8 m/sec squared.)

:devil:

[andy]

standing, in 3/4 second, without getting hurt. Well, actually on my side. The trick is to bend one knee a lot, raising the other leg in front of you, curling the torso, and slapping the ground as you fall backwards and "rock" the torso. The entire forearm and palm contact the deck VERY hard, as the force of falling is "spread" up the torso, by the rounded shape and rocking motion of the torso. All this combines to let you drop that fast, to concrete, without harm. I KNOW how fast the body drops, and I ALSO know that you CAN'T get that many hits, that fast, on the eyesocket. You'd have to BEND OVER with the gun stuck in his orbital socket, EXACTLY following the head's path to the floor. The guy was obviously just LYING, and you bsers are just plain fos.

[Dakota]

We are all aware of how fast you can be "slaped" down to the concrete,lord knows you had enough practice in prison at it in the showers.

[Hard Rock]

Originally posted by Dakota
We are all aware of how fast you can be "slaped" down to the concrete,lord knows you had enough practice in prison at it in the showers.

Oh damn... I give that one a 9.5 for opportunity.

Mike

[Aslan]

Originally posted by 223 fan
standing, in 3/4 second, without getting hurt. Well, actually on my side. The trick is to bend one knee a lot, raising the other leg in front of you, curling the torso, and slapping the ground as you fall backwards and "rock" the torso. The entire forearm and palm contact the deck VERY hard, as the force of falling is "spread" up the torso, by the rounded shape and rocking motion of the torso. All this combines to let you drop that fast, to concrete, without harm. I KNOW how fast the body drops, and I ALSO know that you CAN'T get that many hits, that fast, on the eyesocket. You'd have to BEND OVER with the gun stuck in his orbital socket, EXACTLY following the head's path to the floor. The guy was obviously just LYING, and you bsers are just plain fos.

you should also be able to land on your back doing the same slaping with both arms.

Gosh, you know enough to fall like a white belt.

You beleive, you don't know. there is a difference.

you can't stand that anyone knows more than you (or should I say everyone?)

:devil:

[andy]

you wont HAVE both hands free,in a fight, and the risk to the back of head, tailbone, kidneys, etc, of a straight back breakfall is a stupid one to take. all of u TOGETHER dont know asmuch as I do about these subjects. I prove that every day.

[Clint Boyer]

What do you mean you won't have both hands free in a fight, that's a rediculous statement.

[J. David]

that it's IMPOSSIBLE to shoot an attacker in the eye, 4x , with a .25 auto. If the eye was hit 4x, the last 3 were as he laid there on the floor, dropped by the first hit to the eyeball. :-)

Using the word 'impossible', is similar to using the word 'never'. It winds up being a short period of time.
If I weren't intimately involved with the incident that happened, I'd almost be amused at your lack of knowledge of shooting a firearm. A skilled person, shooting a decent semi auto , can fire a magazine full of ammo, in less than 2.5 seconds--- IN the X ring at 15 meters. That's 13 rounds, out of a Browning Hi Power. If you won't believe me, then start reading up on the SAS. In my case, a Beretta 950SB is a lot easier to manipulate, and consequently to fire rapidly. Do the math. With few exceptions, I clean it every day, and try to fire at least a mag through it once a month. It works, and is very reliable.
I started shooting handguns, before I was too old to hold one up by myself. Same for rifles. At one time, I was active in IPSIC, as well as a State Champion in the Florida Peace Officer's Association in PPC, as well as Regulation Bullseye. I competed in the National Rifle Matches at Perry, when I was fifteen years old. Thankfully, I had the mechanical skills necessary to stay alive, and the luck to pull it off.
We've all sat back and 'arm chair warriored' things to death. I suppose it is only natural to think about " what we would have done". I've done it EVERY DAY since that happened to me. Like my therapist--- yeah, that's right-- THERAPIST-- says to me, " Most people sit around and 'wonder' what they are capable of doing to someone else. We KNOW what we are capable of doing to someone else." I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money , and have gone as far as Texas, to find someone that could help me put my mind back on top of my shoulders--- sort of. Knowing I have killed, and am capable of killing is not something I ever wanted to have to do. I just hope I live long enough, to where my legacy is not that I killed someone in a stupid pawn shop. It is not what I'd like to be remembered for.
Everyone of us 'gun nuts' have sat around and daydreamed about the time when we would be called upon to use our 'superior' shooting skills to 'save the day'. We all fantasize about 'what ' will happen, and 'when' it will happen, and 'how' it will happen. We always come out the hero, with drinks and congratulations all around. It ain't that way in real life. I've had my fifteen minutes of 'fame', and my name and picture in the paper. Nothing would have pleased me more, than to have lived my life in obscurity.
Right on this forum, I've been called a murderer. Believe you me, this guy would NOT want to say that to my face. He also does not know ANYTHING about Florida's Fleeing Felon Laws. Otherwise, he would not have the stupidity to mention the FBI agent was wrong about 'offing' the Miami Shootout perpetrators. I would do most anything possible to have not gone through what I did. NO ONE knows what happened that day, except two people. One of them is not talking. Yeah, it's my word, against a dead man's. Also my word against forensic science--- which is 97% accurate. The facts and science backed up my story. If it were otherwise, I would have been charged with something. To suggest otherwise, is not a good thing to do.
I suggest anyone who is all 'that' interested, to apply , under the Freedom of Information Act, to get a copy of the Medical Examiner's Report, and the Police Reports of the incident. It happened on September 26th, 2000, at approximately 1:15 PM. The address was A-1 Pawn & Jewelry, 1925 S. E. Hwy 19 , Crystal River, Florida, 34429. The Fifth Circuit Medical Examiner's Office is in Leesburg, Florida.
The investigative detective was Det. Corey Sharp, of the Crystal River Police Dept. My complete name is James David Phillips. I would say that is enough information for anyone to track down whatever information that is public record.
For someone to imply it was murder, shows a couple of things. One, a total ignorance of the facts of the case. Two, a complete lack of class and taste. Also, they have left themselves open to a real good libel case for slander of character. Third, if they knew me personally, they would not make such statements.
The reason I have not been on this forum, and not replied for a long time to these vicious attacks on my character, is due to my wife having cancer. She fought, and beat breast cancer last year, only to have it re surface three weeks ago in the form of three tumors in her brain.
I hope Rich will excuse my attitude, and wondering of thought. As most decent people could understand, I'm having a hard time focusing on things at the current time, and dealing with idiots is especially taxing at the current time.
Thanks for your indulgence, and I wish everyone a good day.

J. David
flmflam@hotmail.com

[Clint Boyer]

Thank you sir for the reply.

Best wishes for you and your wife!

[Rich Z]

We're with you 100 percent, Dave. Whenever you need us, you know where to find us.

[andy]

I dont give a <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> WHAT you fire, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, u CAN'T get 4 hits in the eyeball, in 3/4 second. NOBODY can. It's like claiming you can run a 5 second 100 yd dash. EVERYONE knows you just lying. I know you are lying about 4 shots to the eyeball, with a .25 ACP.

[Rich Z]

Here's the quote EXACTLY from Dave's post:

I knew using a sub caliber firearm center mass would be a joke, so I pulled it up in front of my right eye, while thumbing back the hammer. When he realized what was about to happen, his eyes became REAL large. That was what I aimed for, his left eye. I only thought I'd fired about two or three times, but in reality I fired five rounds. That was a surprise to me when they told me that.
I hit him four times in the left eye, and the other round was taken into one of his hands, and went through my front office door fifteen feet behind him. The door is a steel cased door, and the bullet penetrated all the way through, out into the parking lot.
Two of the four bullets that went into his head penetrated all the way through, and fell spent, on the ground ten feet behind him. The last two bounced around in his head, one lodging in the upper cervical region of his spine, and the other in his grey matter. He dropped like a brick, and made a lot of back and forth motions on the floor, like someone having a seizure. Yeah, I guess it 'was' a seizure.


I don't see anywhere in that post where he stated that it took place in 3/4 of a second, do you? Read it again. How long does it take from the time someone sees a gun pointing at his eyesocket to raise his hand to catch a bullet in the hand? How fast can you pull the trigger on a semi-auto when you are in overdrive fighting for your life? Dave had the gun in his right hand, his left hand on the sword and/or the hands/arms of the bad guy and puts the bullets into the left eye. That was the side of the perp closest to his right hand, so at MOST that eyeball was maybe a foot away from the end of the barrel. Even if that head reacted backwards at the first shot (which wouldn't be all that much from such a small caliber projectile), the eyeball was still well within range and an easy target for the subsequent shots. The head would have had to turn nearly 90 degrees to move the eyesocket to where it could not be hit by the later shots fired. If it was moved directly BACKWARDS by the shots, it still would not make the target hard to hit.

Anyone firing a Beretta .25 knows that recoil is minimal, so there is NO problem whatsoever putting all those shots into a golf ball. Try it. Get a melon that has about the mass of a head and draw a two inch diameter target on it. Then fire a .25 caliber handgun at it from 1 foot away and see if you can duplicate this "impossible" feat.

Dave didn't say it only took 3/4 of a second to fire those shots. In reality he didn't even know how many shots he had fired, much less how long it took. I am certain his time sense was completely out the window at that point. He is also an expert pistol shot and I have seen the trophies and awards he has to prove it. So what is all that tough about what he did?

So, Andy, someone in your book is lying if you say they said something that they didn't actually say, or does something that you have never done? So please, lying is when someone states something that is not true, not if someone states something that you don't understand nor agree with.

[John in AR]

Two things.

First, I also missed the "3/4 second" reference in J David's post; if it was there.

Second, even if he DID make that claim... Four shots means three 'split' times from between the first and fourth shots. Three splits over 3/4 second is .25 second split times; simple math.

And you yourself have said:

My idea of controling a powerful defensive pistol is .17 second splits, on repeat hits to the 10" chest circle, at 6 ft, one handed,or at 10ft,both hands on the gun.

(From the a thread in the "Handguns" section.)

So you say it can be done with a "powerful" pistol, on a "ten inch" target, at "six feet", "one handed" with ".17 second splits". (Your words.)

But you now say it can't be done with a single-action auto in .25acp at contact distance, at a 47% slower speed (.17 vs .25 second splits)...?

And before we get into the "10-inch versus eyeball" target size debate, consider this. Figure his barrel was two inches from the eyesocket, and the eye is 1 1/2" inches (approx) in diameter. That's the equivalent of a 90" target at 10 feet. [1.5 / 2 x 120] A 10" diameter target has 78.5 square inches of target area; a 90" diameter target has 6,361; making it more than 80 times as big a target.

Heck, let's say the attacker's got tiny eye sockets; just 1" in diameter. That's still the equivalent of a target 60" in diameter at ten feet. (Or 2,827 square inches of target; still [b]36 times[/i] larger than the target you list.)


So we've got a similar-functioning weapon action (SA auto), in a MUCH less-recoiling caliber, firing 47% slower, at a target that's at least36 TIMES larger (really more like 80 times larger), than what you yourself say your "idea of control" is.

Or saying it without the number clutter: Firing a weapon with an almost identical action, with a MUCH less recoiling round, shooting MUCH slower, at a MUCH larger target.

And yet you say it's impossible...?

[Rich Z]

Yeah, what John said! :nyah:

[Magnum88C]

Mr J David, please keep in mind that these criticisms are coming from someone who's never been in a giunfight and has no idea what the event is like, much less the aftermath.

My best to you and your wife.

[J. David]

I'm sitting in the doctor's office, waiting for Jane to finish her radiation treatment, so thought I'd check back on the site, and see if I garnered any responses. Guess I did.
Yep, back before my little 'incident', I too had doubts about what people could, and could not do with a firearm--- especially a mouse gun. I've taught over the years, more than 5500 people in the safe use of a handgun, and ALWAYS told them, I'd rather have a large rock than a .25 in my hand. I don't tell them that anymore. Point of impact is everything, not caliber. Yep, a .45 is better than a .25. That is a simple mathematical exercise--- however, a .25 in the hand is a whole lot better than the .45 in the gun safe.
Basically, that is the situation I found myself in that day, and utilized what I had. Luckily, it came out the way it did. Looks like I might live long enough to see 'the rest of the story'.
Thanks very much for the kind words, and support. I realize people who 'haven't been there', simply 'haven't been there'. Nothing to their detriment, as I sincerely hope no one ever has to go through what I've done. It is not pleasant. Yeah, people say I did the 'right' thing, and I ' did society a favor', and blah, blah, blah. However, they aren't the one that pulled the trigger, and deal with the aftermath. Most people try to be kind, and understanding, as most people 'are' kind and understanding.
But, there are always the ones that think they are being 'cute', stirring the pot of hate and discontent. I KNOW, because I used to be the same kind of person. Anyone that has access to the internet, can see how my posts were on rec.guns before I was hurt, and after. There's a world of difference. The way I treated, and wrote about Clint McKee, of Fulton Armory, was damn near criminal. Guess what? When I was hurt, he was one of the first people to ask if there's anything he could do. Amazing. We are now fairly good friends, and communicate on a pretty regular basis. I was totally wrong about him, and am glad I can write that.
The idiot on this forum that has written about me, obviously does not know me, and probably would not like me. That's ok, as it takes all kinds. Where there is black, there is also white. Where there is sweet, there is also sour. Where there is good, there is also evil. I KNOW what it is like to have someone after me, with ill intent. Lately, I've been trying to live my life in such a manner, that no one is 'after' me with ill intent. Everything on the internet is traceable. Everything. Anyone that is stupid enough to want to start a 'war', someday might end up paying a penalty. Believe me, those penalties hurt. I would suggest he tone down his accusations, and demeanor before someone starts taking him seriously. It's just too easy to track someone down in this day and time. He reminds me of what we call ' CB Rambos' on the open road. I drive a semi for a living. There are always the 'rough, tough talking' guys on the radio, that do the same thing in voice, that the idiot is doing in print. Ok, no big deal. They always have to pull over sometime to pee. Guess what? Sometimes they find themselves with company that they do not want. No matter how angry some people are, they are quite capable of running into others that are more angry. I believe the trick in life, is just not to be angry, and especially try not to make others more angry than they already are. After some of the things that have happened to me in my recent life, I'm angry.
Two of my very closest friends are Rich, and his bride. They have been more supportive over the years than I can ever say, and I don't believe there's anything I would not do for them. Maybe , if the idiot really, really, really tries---- someday he 'might' be fortunate enough to have friends like them. But, until he changes his tune, he has a lot better chance of being a target.
Thanks guys,

J David

[Terry G]

down like a ROCK. u AINT putting ANY more hits into his eye socket, cause his head is going to BOUNCE off of the deck, in 3/4 second after you get such a hit. That's 6 ft drop in 3/4 second, and no you do NOT hit such a mark again, at ALL, much less THREE MORE TIMES, , as it falls at a rate of 8 fps, bsers. Once he's falling, much less on the ground(from a hit to the eye socket), he is no LONGER an immediate threat to you,and ANY further shooting on your part is MURDER. I knew several guys who did MANY years in prison, because they were as stupid as you are about such things.

What Mirules did to Platt and Matix was MURDER, and if a civilian had done, or in the future DOES such a thing, he's going to prison, most likely indeed.You really are a sorry individual. I met a relative of Agent Mirales at a Law Enforcement Training Academy several years after the incident. He said that the man was still having some problems. And you defend those two worthless pieces of trash? What should he have done? Give them first aid? Too bad he didn't have a 15 rounder to shoot them a bunch more. Murder my, A**.

[Magnum88C]

Terry, you're picking on two of Goonkid's heroes. He loves them because they used autoloading rifles to really show the cops what's what. . .:rolleyes:

And they probably lasted a lot longer that he would if he ever tried what he spouts off about.

[gripper]

Damn;I see that GK/Andy/.223fan/whatever is still makin' friends .....WTF,try to just think of it as the actions of a spastic kid that occasionally is.......interesting COULD be the word if it was'nt such a one note song with no dance.Cheer up though ;he's annoyed people from my area(Massghanistan) to Texas.All he's got to do is visit one of us :dgrin:

[Aslan]

Damn;I see that GK/Andy/.223fan/whatever is still makin' friends .....WTF,try to just think of it as the actions of a spastic kid that occasionally is.......interesting COULD be the word if it was'nt such a one note song with no dance.Cheer up though ;he's annoyed people from my area(Massghanistan) to Texas.All he's got to do is visit one of us :dgrin:

Won't happen though. Even when offered to have his trip paid for, and to have it arranged so he can get a travel waiver, he's a no show.

You see, if you tell him where to meet you, you're just trying to get someone you don't like killed. (which only works if he isn't planning to face anyone but ambush them from behind in the dark. I mean, how hard is it to introduce yourself and see if you are in fact talking to the right person?)

:devil:

[Stillwater]

BS.... YOU talk about the "splits" you can shoot and how rapid fire you are. How long would it take you to fire off 4 shots with a Beretta .25 when you are supercharged on adrenaline and fighting for your very life? You are shooting at a golf ball sized target less than 1 foot from the end of the barrel. What MOA does that equate to at 25 yards?

Secondly take ANY self defense course and take notes. They TELL you to keep on firing until the attacker is neutralized and DO NOT count on one shot doing the job. Most teach double taps as a matter of course. This is in courses taught by LEOs, btw.

Careful Rick, don't get too touchy. He is your star poster. You need him -- remember?

Bill

[Stillwater]

I dont give a <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> WHAT you fire, <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, u CAN'T get 4 hits in the eyeball, in 3/4 second. NOBODY can. It's like claiming you can run a 5 second 100 yd dash. EVERYONE knows you just lying. I know you are lying about 4 shots to the eyeball, with a .25 ACP.

You know something? You picked the wrong pony to flog. The people here are getting enough of you. Even old Ricky is starting to get out of sorts with you. It won't be long, until you're gone. Keep it up -- the sooner the better, stvpe.

Hey, I still hear you have twelve years to go on parole. Is that true? A certain deputy sheriff sergeant told me that.

Bill

[andy]

like I SAID, u r a liar. The FIRST 25, having "penetrated all the way thru his skull", dropped him like a ROCK, so you DIDN'T put 3 more rds into his eye socket, UNLESS you did so as he lay there on the floor (which WOULD be an act of murder).

[Rich Z]

like I SAID, u r a liar. The FIRST 25, having "penetrated all the way thru his skull", dropped him like a ROCK, so you DIDN'T put 3 more rds into his eye socket, UNLESS you did so as he lay there on the floor (which WOULD be an act of murder).

And you, sir, have a reading comprehension problem:

I hit him four times in the left eye, and the other round was taken into one of his hands, and went through my front office door fifteen feet behind him. The door is a steel cased door, and the bullet penetrated all the way through, out into the parking lot.
Two of the four bullets that went into his head penetrated all the way through, and fell spent, on the ground ten feet behind him. The last two bounced around in his head, one lodging in the upper cervical region of his spine, and the other in his grey matter. He dropped like a brick, and made a lot of back and forth motions on the floor, like someone having a seizure. Yeah, I guess it 'was' a seizure.


Show me where it says the bad guy dropped like a brick after the FIRST shot, as you are claiming? The way I read this was that the guy dropped after Dave unloaded the clip, which is probably a much more realistic scenario than the guy dropping immediately from a single strike with a .25ACP projectile.

Besides, why do nearly all defensive classes teach a double tap? I mean, why bother when the perp has already bounced off of the floor at the first shot? Some people advocate two shots to the chest and a followup to the head. Why bother with those last two shots if everyone hits the floor at the first shot?

How many people have you said you have shot, 223 fan? I forget.

[Stillwater]

Rich:
You should understand something. J. David has survived an up front and close gunfight.

This gives him stature in MELVIN'S eyes. It is a stature that MELVIN covets. If MELVIN can't have the stature, he will tear at the person that has survived the encounter.

I think Mr. David is to be admired for putting one of MELVIN'S prison buddies six feet under. My hat is off to him.

[J. David]

Thanks for the nice remarks, Bill. Believe me, I wish I could give my 'status' to Melvin, or whatever the pukes name is. He's welcome to it. It is NOTHING like I ever would have imagined, and would certainly not want it, now that I've been there.
As for him, about all I can say , is that he wants to keep writing me as a murderer, well I guess that is his perogative. However, it totally flies against scientific forensic facts, as well as my story. He appears to be the only one that just doesn't 'get it'.
I wonder if he wears his pants with the underwear up or down? I bet his pants go South in a hurry in the joint :-)
Thanks again, guys,

J David

[Dakota]

Melvin AKA Gunkid is very jealous and envious of anyone that has actually had a taste of life or death,...hell for that matter he is intimidated by anyone who calls his bluffs and BS that he spreads across the net,...he is a waste of bandwidth and fresh air.If the US even did emissions tests on its populus Melvin would fail hands down,...he is a convicted felon that hates the fact that he can not have half of the life we do.


Melvin is and always will be internet BS and nothing more because he WILL NEVER FACE one of us like a man should,...he is to used to turning around for men in prison.


Melvin is a coward and a LIAR

[andy]

and YOU are scared to come meet me,punk. :-)

[Stillwater]

and YOU are scared to come meet me,punk. :-)

MELVIN, your not going to do anything to anybody. Everybody out here realizes that you are just blowing smoke. You're are either blowing smoke and hot air, or are having BRAIN FARTS. That is all that INTERNET HEMMORHOIDS like you do.

You have no courage melvin. You are a stone cold COWARD. we all know it, so you blustering means nothing, because we know you would ROLL OVER AND PEE ON YOURSELF LIKE A SCARED PUPPY, if someone ever did confront you.

Sorry MELVIN, we know you too well to believe any of your bluster. But, you can go ahead and do it, if it makes you feel good.

[Stillwater]

<snip>

I wonder if he wears his pants with the underwear up or down? I bet his pants go South in a hurry in the joint :-)
Thanks again, guys,

J David

If JOHN MELVIN DAVIS ever did wear underwear, he would wear them down, so he could clear the decks for action quicker.

HEY CONVICT, did BUBBA let you be his private BITCH-BOY while you were in prison, or did he rent you out? As for me, I think Bubba rented you out to all comers.

[John in AR]

...Four shots means three 'split' times from between the first and fourth shots. Three splits over 3/4 second is .25 second split times; simple math.

And you yourself have said:


Originally Posted by andy
My idea of controling a powerful defensive pistol is .17 second splits, on repeat hits to the 10" chest circle, at 6 ft, one handed,or at 10ft,both hands on the gun.



(From the a thread in the "Handguns" section.)

So you say it can be done with a "powerful" pistol, on a "ten inch" target, at "six feet", "one handed" with ".17 second splits". (Your words.)

But you now say it can't be done with a single-action auto in .25acp at contact distance, at a 47% slower speed (.17 vs .25 second splits)...?

And before we get into the "10-inch versus eyeball" target size debate, consider this. Figure his barrel was two inches from the eyesocket, and the eye is 1 1/2" inches (approx) in diameter. That's the equivalent of a 90" target at 10 feet. [1.5 / 2 x 120] A 10" diameter target has 78.5 square inches of target area; a 90" diameter target has 6,361; making it more than 80 times as big a target.

Heck, let's say the attacker's got tiny eye sockets; just 1" in diameter. That's still the equivalent of a target 60" in diameter at ten feet. (Or 2,827 square inches of target; still [b]36 times[/i] larger than the target you list.)


So we've got a similar-functioning weapon action (SA auto), in a MUCH less-recoiling caliber, firing 47% slower, at a target that's at least36 TIMES larger (really more like 80 times larger), than what you yourself say your "idea of control" is.

Or saying it without the number clutter: Firing a weapon with an almost identical action, with a MUCH less recoiling round, shooting MUCH slower, at a MUCH larger target.

And yet you say it's impossible...?


I ask again.. What's wrong with my math?

The claimed .17-second splits mean 0.42 seconds from the firing of the first shot to the firing of the last; less than half a second, using times you say are doable even with a "powerful" handgun, one-handed. This guy was using a .25 auto.

"Locked together" as they were grappling, the bad guy's not going to be down "dead on the floor", less than a half-second later.

And I've already covered the 'targe-size relative to distance' issue above.

So either it's possible, which means the story could be true; or it's impossible, which means .17-second splits are just that - impossible.

As you say, "Can't have it both ways".

[andy]

OK, he'd STILL drop 3/4 of the way to the floor in .51 second, and WHO says that THIS BOZO can get .17 second splits, hmm? He KNOWS he's got a disgruntled wannabe gun buyer hanging around, he LEAVES his Glock laying around,he is charged by a guy with a sword, and FORGETS he's carrying a .25, but SUDDENLY he's a Master shottist?

I shoot you ONCE in the eyesocket, you are dropping like a ROCK. Now maybe you CLAIM you can hit 1" circles, at ANY range, while they are falling at the rate of 6 fps? BS, the guy's an effing LIAR.

[Clint Boyer]

You just don't get it do you DUMBSH!T.

They were in a death grip! You don't just let go while your shooting (yes TWO o's).

[Rich Z]

Andy, exactly how many people have you shot to know exactly how quickly a person will drop after being shot in exactly the same circumstances? You seem to know exactly how all people will react when being shot, so from what experience base are you drawing from? How many other first hand experiences have you heard of that are similar that you are basing your decisions on? Do you think that assailant might have been on drugs? Do you think that might have made a difference in how he would react?

Heck, show me even one instance where a self defense training exercise recommends only firing one shot at an assailant claiming that the target will drop like a rock from that one shot. Why do they recommend at least double taps or more? DO you think there is a reason for this recommendation? If people dropped like a rock, without fail, from a single shot, then why would the additional shots be recommended?

I have been to Dave's place and seen the shooting trophies and certificates he has. He is VERY capable with a handgun. I firmly believe that him being able to fire 4 shots into the eyesocket of some guy he is grappling with at arm's length (at most) away would be well within his capabilities. I am actually surprised that he didn't shove the gun into the eyesocket as well for good measure.

As far as him being caught with his pants down when he was attacked, well heck, I guess you were always at the ready when those dogs came around, eh? Dave was at his place of business and people come into the shop all day long, day in and day out, without incidence. He didn't go out walking down the street looking for trouble. He did not EXPECT to get attacked. With people, sometimes things are quite different then when dealing with dogs. The stress of being attacked by a sword wielding human being is likely quite different from being charged by barking dogs, I would guess. But maybe if a dog happened to walk into your house and suddenly attack you, maybe your reactions would be quite different, hmmm?

So yes, Murphy's Law certainly had a hand in this situation. If Dave had been able to lay his hand on his Glock, the story would have been much different. But I'll bet he doesn't have a .25 Beretta outside of easy reach.....

[Stillwater]

OK, he'd STILL drop 3/4 of the way to the floor in .51 second, and WHO says that THIS BOZO can get .17 second splits, hmm? He KNOWS he's got a disgruntled wannabe gun buyer hanging around, he LEAVES his Glock laying around,he is charged by a guy with a sword, and FORGETS he's carrying a .25, but SUDDENLY he's a Master shottist?

I shoot you ONCE in the eyesocket, you are dropping like a ROCK. Now maybe you CLAIM you can hit 1" circles, at ANY range, while they are falling at the rate of 6 fps? BS, the guy's an effing LIAR.

You are never going to understand anything MELVIN, why, it is because you are an ex-convict and automatically take the criminal's side of the equation. You are revealing more of the hideous inside of your mental processes.

And, Rich is starting to look just as bad as you, MELVIN, because he is a post whore, for wanting all of the traffic, an idiot like JOHN MELVIN DAVIS generates. It's money in your pocket, isn't it Rich. Come on Rich, tell the truth.

Then Rich lets MELVIN, try to destroy a man that bested a criminal in personal combat, a man that deserves out praise, not letting a stupid, damned criminal, tear his reputation down.

I think you're damned disgusting for allowing this to happen Rich!

Now, come out here and talk about freedom of speech and all of the other liberal-ass platitudes that let you cover your assnatomy, while allowing this disgusting charade place.

Rich, you are begining to be beneath contempt. If you don't like me saying this, lets let this be your personal problem. Go ahead Rich, kiss MELVIN'S ex-convict butt again, as you count the posts on your forum. While you're counting posts, count this one too!

And, Rich, if you want to ban me over ripping your butt over being a post whore, and protecting MELVIN, I will consider it a BADGE OF HONOR! And what will it make you look like?

[Rich Z]

Quote from Bill Stillwater:

And, Rich is starting to look just as bad as you, MELVIN, because he is a post whore, for wanting all of the traffic, an idiot like JOHN MELVIN DAVIS generates. It's money in your pocket, isn't it Rich. Come on Rich, tell the truth.

Then Rich lets MELVIN, try to destroy a man that bested a criminal in personal combat, a man that deserves out praise, not letting a stupid, damned criminal, tear his reputation down.

I think you're damned disgusting for allowing this to happen Rich!

Now, come out here and talk about freedom of speech and all of the other liberal-ass platitudes that let you cover your assnatomy, while allowing this disgusting charade place.

Rich, you are begining to be beneath contempt. If you don't like me saying this, lets let this be your personal problem. Go ahead Rich, kiss MELVIN'S ex-convict butt again, as you count the posts on your forum. While you're counting posts, count this one too!


How do you figure this, Bill? I don't make a dime off of this site. Not one single solitary penny. The few banner ads I have here are being run for FREE. I don't get a penny off of them. This site comes completely out of my pocket. How much did YOU pay to be here, Bill?

So just what is your beef anyway? If you don't like the way this site is run, nor the people on it, then just go away. Pretty simple to understand, now isn't it? You can collect the money you paid to be here at the door on your way out....

From what I can determine, YOU have a gunkid fetish. And that, bud, is not my problem, it is yours. You really need to get a life.

Matter of fact, I have a very difficult time recalling anything you have posted here that was in any form positive or helpful and NOT an attack on someone else. You have tried everything you can think of to get me to ban 223 fan/andy, and they failed, so now the plan is to attack me directly, eh? So tell me, just who the heck needs YOU here? You were just frothing at the mouth hoping I would allow you to be a moderator here, now weren't you? Not a chance, bud. Not a chance. One thing I have learned in the years of running message boards is to recognize a pathologically destructive personality.

BTW, Dave knows where I stand with him. Go ahead, ask him.

So anyway, since you brought this up, let me lay the law down to YOU right here and right now. If you attack anyone on this site, either directly, via innuendo, or by implication, you are gone. If you want to contribute to this site and be helpful to the other people participating here, then do so, but not in the manner in which you have been doing so.

So go ahead, I am awaiting the expected derogatory laced response to this post.......

[Stillwater]

Quote from Bill Stillwater:

How do you figure this, Bill? I don't make a dime off of this site. Not one single solitary penny. The few banner ads I have here are being run for FREE. I don't get a penny off of them. This site comes completely out of my pocket. How much did YOU pay to be here, Bill?

How much do I pay to be here? They same amount that every one else pays. Is that a problem? And I don't think that you set this website up out of the goodness of your heart. There are other forces at play here, EGO for one!

However, if you did, then my hat is off to you, but, treat everybody equally and decently.

Stop JOHN MELVIN DAVIS'S attacks on a man who defended his life, and won, in mortal combat. Is that too much to ask, of your worshipfullness?

So just what is your beef anyway?

If you can't tell what my beef is, you must have a reading comprehension problem.

The beef I have with you is your support for the EX-CONVICT JOHN MELVIN DAVIS.

A man had to engage a criminal in deadly combat, this man killed the criminal and you won't head off MELVIN'S attacking him.

What does that say about you Rich?

I will tell you something else that says a lot about you! You ignored everything I said in my post. So you do not debate -- you attack. Very well, and what does that say about you?

If you don't like the way this site is run, nor the people on it, then just go away. Pretty simple to understand, now isn't it? You can collect the money you paid to be here at the door on your way out....

Your insipid attack in the above paragraph also speaks volumes about your frame of reference.

Except for MELVIN, I think there are a great bunch of people on this forum. You, may make me change my mind about you. Why? because I believe your priorities are misplaced.


From what I can determine, YOU have a gunkid fetish. And that, bud, is not my problem, it is yours. You really need to get a life.

Ah, here we go -- if you can't debate, attack a persons heterosexual sexuality. What does that say about you Rich?

Matter of fact, I have a very difficult time recalling anything you have posted here that was in any form positive or helpful and NOT an attack on someone else.

And I suppose the drivel that MELVIN has posted is Wisdom from the Mount On High? Is that what you think?

You have tried everything you can think of to get me to ban 223 fan/andy, and they failed, so now the plan is to attack me directly, eh?


For all that read this, that allegation is an outright lie.

Where have I asked you to ban him? All I have done is object to the content of his idiotic posts. That IS right isn't it?

So what is the REAL problem Rich?


So tell me, just who the heck needs YOU here? You were just frothing at the mouth hoping I would allow you to be a moderator here, now weren't you? Not a chance, bud. Not a chance.

Frothing at the mouth? not hardly, not even a chance! I wouldn't want to be a moderator on a board that supports destructive EX-CONVICTS. So get that squared away in your head right now.

Being a moderator, on a board that coddles criminals, is not a position that accrues any respect.

I said I would help you, the operative word is help. However I don't think you want to help yourself.

One thing I have learned in the years of running message boards is to recognize a pathologically destructive personality.

First of all, unless you are a psychiatrist, or a Ph.D. Psychologist, you aren't qualified to make that diagnosis.

However, you have allowed a destructive Sociopath (this diagnosis from a psychiatrist, whom I let read MELVIN'S posts) one your board, to attack good people.

You have allowed the EX-CONVICT JOHN MELVIN DAVIS, to attack a man who had to defend his life against another ANTISOCIAL CRIMINAL.

You have allowed JOHN MELVIN DAVIS to call a man, who defended his life, a murderer.

I have spent forty yearrs working in an Engineering environment. I have designed Spacecraft structures and payloads. A destructive person, I don't think so! For if I were, I would not have kept my job, and I wouldn't have been promoted as many times as I was. If you are destructive, you do not last long in Aerospace. Trust me on that.


BTW, Dave knows where I stand with him. Go ahead, ask him.

Oh, I am quiet sure that MELVIN knows where he stands with you. However, I am sure that MELVIN will respect your feelings, just as he has respected the law all of his life.

In other words, he will do as he damned well pleases. As MELVIN always has done.

So anyway, since you brought this up, let me lay the law down to YOU right here and right now.

Rich, you aren't laying down any law to me, that is in anyway different, than what you expect out of anyone else. Is that clear? I know something about the law too! You will not treat me any differently than you will anyone else.

If you attack anyone on this site, either directly, via innuendo, or by implication, you are gone.

I have only attacked the EX-CONVICT JOHN MELVIN DAVIS. And I will continue to point out the errors (crimes) he has committed. And, just as long as you do that to everybody else, including the EX-CONVICT JOHN MELVIN DAVIS, I don't have a problem with it. Just as long as you deal fairly with everybody. Which you have not done, up to this time.

If you want to contribute to this site and be helpful to the other people participating here, then do so, but not in the manner in which you have been doing so.

I have been helpful to others on this sight, except for the EX-CONVICT JOHN MELVIN DAVIS. I don't post drivel. I don't recycle posts that have been posted on fifty or more sites that THE EX-CONVICT JOHN MELVIN DAVIS has been banned from. DAVIS is an unreconstructed INTERNET HEMMORHOID that needs to go back to prison. And I am, with other members of this forum, helping in that effort.

So, I guess that makes me out to be an unworthy person just because I have a dislike for CRIMINALS. Is that right RICH?

Curious people would like a direct answer to the above question. And, I will assure you that there are many curious people one this site. Probably, because I am instrumental in bringing many them here.


So go ahead, I am awaiting the expected derogatory laced response to this post.......

Gee Rich, what have I said that is derogatory? in fact I have pointed out in this post where you have been assumptive, and derogatory. So, if you wish -- because of this, ask me to leave and I will! Just email me!

If by saying you protect, and support, an EX-CONVICT is derogatory. Then I have said that. So, if you wish, because of this, -- ask me to leave and I will! Just email me!

If saying you must treat everybody equally, is derogatory. Then I have said that. So, if you wish, because of this, -- ask me to leave and I will! Just email me!

Rich, you need to recognize, that an opinion opposed to your's is not an attack -- these words are expressions of my opinion.

You need to Learn to debate with out attacking, yourself. Then you may earn back the respect your forum should deserve.

I don't like EX-CONVICTS consorting with law-abiding people. Apparently you do. This sentence is an expression of opinion, in debate, not an attack. If you can't realize that, then you may have a deeper seated personal problem.

I have never been arrested in my life, I have only been in a jail, to see what one looked like. A friend on LAPD gave me a tour. In fifty-two years of driving, I haven't hardly ever got a traffic ticket, three -- and I beat two in traffic court. All this while living in an area where the average is one traffic ticket a year, per driver.

I respect the law, even if I don't agree with the law. That may change because of governments attitude towads firearms.

I am a CITIZEN who legally owns firearms. I am not an EXCONVICT, ILLEGALLY IN POSSESION OF FIREARMS. And, unlike you, I will continue to my opposition to criminals, in possesion of firearms. Which of us, does that make the better citizen, RICH.

[Rich Z]

Rich, you need to recognize, that an opinion opposed to your's is not an attack -- these words are expressions of my opinion.


So the below are expressions of your opinion and not an attack, Bill?


And, Rich is starting to look just as bad as you, MELVIN, because he is a post whore, for wanting all of the traffic, an idiot like JOHN MELVIN DAVIS generates. It's money in your pocket, isn't it Rich. Come on Rich, tell the truth.

Then Rich lets MELVIN, try to destroy a man that bested a criminal in personal combat, a man that deserves out praise, not letting a stupid, damned criminal, tear his reputation down.

I think you're damned disgusting for allowing this to happen Rich!

Now, come out here and talk about freedom of speech and all of the other liberal-ass platitudes that let you cover your assnatomy, while allowing this disgusting charade place.

Rich, you are begining to be beneath contempt. If you don't like me saying this, lets let this be your personal problem. Go ahead Rich, kiss MELVIN'S ex-convict butt again, as you count the posts on your forum. While you're counting posts, count this one too!

And, Rich, if you want to ban me over ripping your butt over being a post whore, and protecting MELVIN, I will consider it a BADGE OF HONOR! And what will it make you look like?


No, I am not going to email you at all. I will ask you right here and now to leave. Got that? Don't bother to reply to this post, just be gone.

[Stillwater]

BYE, BYE -- I am sorry that I pointed out so many of your personal problems, please do not accept my apology.

[Aslan]

You just don't get it do you DUMBSH!T.

They were in a death grip! You don't just let go while your shooting (yes TWO o's).

Clint, you are just wasting your time. GK doesn't want to try and comprehend the situation. He's doing this for two reasons:

1) make the thread about him, and he is succeeding. That's why he has split his repsonses into two threads, though I was surprised he came back to this one.

2) he can't stand it when the "good" guys win. Life was unfair to him, and it wasn't his fault that he made bad choices. Therefore anyone who makes a different choice and succeeds doesn't deserve it. Besides, no one can have more skill then GK (see reason # 1)

:devil:

[brass hammer]

did i ever sink to this 'level' on a forum?

after reading above posts?



'ONLY A FOOL ARGUES THE FACTS!'


[can't we all just get a long neck] :laugh:


personally , the imput from ,stillwater , rich z , andy/.223fan, are all equal

IN MY SMALL VEIW OF THINGS!



[you can fire my ass too! it's won't be the first time , and i am fearless]





thanks.

[Magnum88C]

Don't forget that GoonKid idolizes criminals. Here is an example of a decent person putting a scumbag where he belonged -- in the gardening program at the local cementary.

Second thing is, GoonKid has PROVEN himself to be not only a criminal, but an abject coward and is shamed by a person who is enough of a MAN to not surrender, and actually defended his life.

J David: Two thumbs up!
GoonKid: two thumbs down.

[RIKA]

When I read the argument between Rich and Stillwater this morning I was deeply saddened. The cause of the argument: goonkid. IMO it got too hot too quickly with two Alpha Males who absolutely wouldn't back down. I can see both points of view and will not take sides. Its not my place to do so.

Just want to make one point. We have all lost on this one. Goonkid is the winner and he is laughing out loud at all of us.

RIKA

[John in AR]

GK - not listening again.

I didn't say "he" could do it. I said based on the numbers I laid out (which were based on numbers you've laid out), either:

1 - It's possible, or

2 - It's impossible.

That's all; no commentary on his ability whatsoever. Never having met the man, much less seeing him shoot, there's no way a person can comment on his ability, anymore than I can comment on his bowling skill or golf game.

In a fight, going from "locked in a life & death struggle" to "dead and still on the floor" is not going to happen in half a second. Even an animal, head-shot with a centerfire rifle, doesn't fall that fast. (Been there, done that, as they say.)

- And the animal isn't tensed, muscles locked, and pumped with adrenaline when shot, as would have been the case here.

- And the animal doesn't have an equal-size, still-upright animal holding them up, as was the case here.

- And that's with a powerful, centerfire rifle, not a .25 pocket pistol, as was the case here.

So no, the guy's not going to go from 'struggling' to 'dead and lying on the floor', in half a second.


Again I ask. What's wrong with my math?

[Rich Z]

You are never going to understand anything MELVIN, why, it is because you are an ex-convict and automatically take the criminal's side of the equation. You are revealing more of the hideous inside of your mental processes.

And, Rich is starting to look just as bad as you, MELVIN, because he is a post whore, for wanting all of the traffic, an idiot like JOHN MELVIN DAVIS generates. It's money in your pocket, isn't it Rich. Come on Rich, tell the truth.

Then Rich lets MELVIN, try to destroy a man that bested a criminal in personal combat, a man that deserves out praise, not letting a stupid, damned criminal, tear his reputation down.

I think you're damned disgusting for allowing this to happen Rich!

Now, come out here and talk about freedom of speech and all of the other liberal-ass platitudes that let you cover your assnatomy, while allowing this disgusting charade place.

Rich, you are begining to be beneath contempt. If you don't like me saying this, lets let this be your personal problem. Go ahead Rich, kiss MELVIN'S ex-convict butt again, as you count the posts on your forum. While you're counting posts, count this one too!

And, Rich, if you want to ban me over ripping your butt over being a post whore, and protecting MELVIN, I will consider it a BADGE OF HONOR! And what will it make you look like?


Please read the post that Bill Stillwater placed in this thread. This was very antagonistic, in my opinion, towards me for my allowing someone else, who Mr. Stillwater appears to hate with a passion, to express their opinion on MY site. Even an opinion which I have been very vocal about disagreeing with. Mr. Stillwater apparently has deep rooted issues with 223 fan/andy and those feelings were obviously being transferred over to me. Mr. Stillwater, in my opinion, had one goal for being on this site, and that was to try to get andy/223 fan banned from it. When I refused, I then became a focus point for his anger as well.

I can take my lumps with the best of them, but quite frankly, in this case I felt Mr. Stillwater was way out of line with his accusations. The words are there for you all to read, so judge them as you will. I have earlier emails from Mr. Stillwater that were along the same vein, which definitely contributed to my laying down "the law" to him, but I see no reason to dredge those up and quote them here. If any of you, running your own site, would be complacent about those sort of accusations being leveled against you, then I just guess you are a better man then I am.

You all can fight among yourselves as much as you want as long as you are at least somewhat restrained in the language you use here on a public message board. But when any of you want to turn on me for my allowing you the freedom to do that, then you, as well, are welcome to leave and go elsewhere. I am not making a dime by your being here, and will not lose a penny if you leave. I lease my own servers, so it does not really cost me anything beyond the yearly price of the domain name to run this site.

So, with the above in mind, please note that this site is offered on an "as is" basis, so take it or leave it.

[RIKA]

Rich, if the above was intended for me let me assure you that my thoughts were neither a personal attack nor a condemnation of your decision. I understand your position and absolutely don't want to become part of this altercation. As I said, IMO this is a loss of us all with only Gunkid winning. I am saddened what happened and I am sorry if you interpreted it differently. Perhaps I was wrong in offering an opinion. Sorry. This is your place and, as you say, we must abide by your rules or leave. I accept that.

RIKA

[Rich Z]

No, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I guess you can consider it general policy applicable to everyone. When I get busy, I tend to be very blunt and to the point, sometimes maybe interpretted as rudeness by those people such comments are directed at. Sorry about that, but right now this is the busiest time of year for me, so beating around the bush will not be in the cards at all.

Maybe at a different time of year I would have been willing to debate with Mr. Stillwell and try to come to some sort of compromise. But that's the way it is, I guess.

[John in AR]

This is why I always tell my boys, "Emotion is the enemy."

Emotions, whether negative (anger, jealousy, etc) or positive (jocularity, pride, etc), are the antithesis of reason. Sometimes that isn't a bad thing; an emotional thing can be very positive, such as watching a hilarious comedy, attending a loved-one's wedding, or seeing your kid win the big game. "Experiencing" emotion is pretty much unavoidable as a human being.

But letting actions or decisions be controlled (or even influenced) by emotion is ALWAYS a mistake.

What do I care if Rich, Bill, or GK agree or disagree with each other, or even with me? It costs me nothing, and it's not important enough (or at least shouldn't be important enough) to make me respond in a way I'd be embarrassed for my kids to read. Not belittling Rich, Bill, or GK; but their opinion of me or my stance on something is irrelevant to my life. And here's the important part: My opinion of them should mean equally little in their lives. If we step back for a minute, we have to realize how impersonal and low-impact these types of forums really are. (No offense, Rich. :) ) For all we really "KNOW", Rich, Bill, and GK could in fact be the same person, couldn't they...? Doubt it, personally, but I can't "know" for certain. And if I can't "know" a person's identity, how can I in good conscience let their opinions substantially influence my life?

In the strictest sense, we're like a bunch of strangers who are sitting in a dark room. Can't see each other, can't make eye contact, can't tell if we're talking to ten people or one person using different voices, or even talking to one person with multiple personalities. Yet many of us get fighting mad over what's said by these faceless, anonymous voices that are rambling in the darkness; that makes no sense to this big dumb redneck. My suggestion would be to get over it; get past it; get through it; or somehow deal with it.

Just my (unemotional) opinion.


OK; flamethrowers back "on"... :flamethr:

[RIKA]

Good advice John. I appreciate your comments. (No flamethrower needed)

RIKA

[Magnum88C]

Condensed version of John in AR's post:

It's the friggin' 'net!

Some people are as much an a$$hole in real life as on the 'net (like me). But we all know if GoonKid did half the sh!t he says, or even mouthed off the way he does on the 'net, he'd have been planted long ago. So don't get worked up by him. AFAIC, he deserves every bit of abuse he gets, but don't make your life revolve around it.

Hell, we got GUNS to talk about!

[RIKA]

... Some people are as much an a$$hole in real life as on the 'net (like me).

If you say that again I'll give you a cyber-smack up against yore head. :D

(Just kidding. Remember what you told me awhile back)

Hell, we got GUNS to talk about!

Absolutely!

Lets get back to real business.

RIKA :)

[Hard Ball]

Yes, we have real guns and we shoot them!

[Magnum88C]

If you say that again I'll give you a cyber-smack up against yore head. :D

(Just kidding. Remember what you told me awhile back)

RIKA :)

Yeah, thanks for the spin-around ;)

[brass hammer]

i have read your post a half/dozen times and it is still RIGHT ON !



I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EFFORT!



thanks.