If you could only have one 22 rifle, what would it be?

[Stillwater]

There are so many good 22 rifles to be had, that the choice is almost endless.

Base you choice on the complete rifle, not some near worthless 22 conversion unit modification of a centerfire rifle. Try not to go far afield, but stick with individual 22 rifles, and action styles.

Explain your preference in detail, if you would, please.

What would you want for a scope on the rifle? Or, would you open sights or aperature sights?

Do you base you choice on the action type?

Do you base you choice on the brand name?

Or, would you base your choice on how the individual rifle is equipped, and your experience with that individual rifle?

Do you practice fire discipline, or do you tend to spray and pray?

I, personally, would choose a repeater, either a semiautomatic, or a lever action style rifle. While I like bolt action rifles, I would choose other action types. I probably would not choose any of the single shot 22 rifles that I own either.

I have about thirty, 22 rifles, to select from. I have, mostly, high end rifles, with some medium priced rifles that are highly modified.

My first choice would be one of my CPC modified Ruger 10/22 Sporters (DSP model), because I do not like barrel bands.

I have nine Ruger 10/22's, and all of them are equipped with Leupold M8 6X42AO fixed power scopes. I would choose any one of these rifles because of their proven reliability, and accuracy, since CPC performed their accuracy work.

However, I could, just as easily, choose one of my several Winchester, CZ or Marlin repeating rifles too.

Bill

[RIKA]

Based strictly on utility, ease of customizing and availibility of parts, I would have to choose the Ruger 10-22. I have extensive experience with it and trust the design. A true workhorse in every sense of the word.

Dad's 10-22 dates from 1967 and is quality built with the walnut stock, Weaver Variable 22 scope and a 2.25 lb trigger that I gunsmithed years ago. My rifle is 1999 vintage and un-gunsmithed with an el-cheapo Chinese Bushnell 4X scope. Either would suffice for hunting. My 10-22 could definitely use some gunsmithing and slicking up.

Do you practice fire discipline, or do you tend to spray and pray?

Fire discipline is natural for me. One shot, one kill if I do my part.

If I had unlimited funds, would like to have a Grade 3 Browning Autoloader and a Kimber Super America also, just for their beauty and both in 22 lr.

For any reasonable use, the 10-22 does the job just fine.

RIKA :)

[Rich Z]

Heck, I'm thinking seriously about letting loose one of my 10-22s and having it rebuilt with an integral silencer. There is a local shop here that does that kind of work. Probably would replace the trigger group as well.

I think a low powered Leupold variable would be the ticket. Something like a 1.75 x 4 or so.

I have an H&K model 270 that is a real tack driver, so that would be a real close runner up.

[RIKA]

Rich,

A 10-22 with an integral suppressor (silencer) would be a real prize. I assume that your gunsmith is an installer for one of the large manufacturers. What brand do you like? I've been told that when you're firing lead bullets through the unit that its best to have one that can be disassembled for cleaning.

RIKA :)

[Rich Z]

The guy appears at the local gunshows every now and again. Here's his site:

LRM Firearms (http://www.lrmfirearms.com/pages/507919/index.htm)

The stuff looks well made on his table, but heck, how do you know until you actually take it out for a spin? I'm just concerned about accuracy of the unit. If I can't hit squirrels with it at 50 yards it's not worth beans to me.

Maybe I can get him to guarantee minimal performance and give me a test target.

I assume the local sheriff will sign off on this, since he signed off on my Street Sweeper when I had to have it registered as a DD a while back.

Guess I might need to start on this soon if I want to have it by the Winter months.

[andy]

not th2 .22 unit in the AR. The 1 in 12 twist AR's and .22 units group 2" at 50 yds, POI is within 2" of the 223, too. No fighting rifle handles like a 1022 The sights bolt lockrelease, mag release, safty, all different, and POINTLESSLY so. What 's the matter, can't you shoot a .22 PISTOL good enough to hunt with it? Cant you stalk within 35m of small game? :-)

[andy]

if you don't want theBATF hassle (and UTILITY) of a 6" barrel (which keeps standard, "high speed" .22lr ammo subsonic, then be sure to ream out the rifling in any ported area of the barrel. That will eliminated the ports each tearing off a little piece of the side of the pure lead .22 bullet, as it passes the port.

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by 223 fan
not th2 .22 unit in the AR. The 1 in 12 twist AR's and .22 units group 2" at 50 yds, POI is within 2" of the 223, too. No fighting rifle handles like a 1022 The sights bolt lockrelease, mag release, safty, all different, and POINTLESSLY so. What 's the matter, can't you shoot a .22 PISTOL good enough to hunt with it? Cant you stalk within 35m of small game? :-)

Melvin:
Your posts are so damned illiterate, repititious and disrespectful in demeanor, that no one wants to listen to you, or read what you have to say.

Get an education, and get a life. You're functionally illiterate. Your abject illiteracy causes others who know how nutty you are, to laugh at you.

Sorry Melvin, but you just don't have it. As my friend Mel Tappan used to say, "that boy is a little light between the ears."

Bill

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by 223 fan
if you don't want theBATF hassle (and UTILITY) of a 6" barrel (which keeps standard, "high speed" .22lr ammo subsonic, then be sure to ream out the rifling in any ported area of the barrel. That will eliminated the ports each tearing off a little piece of the side of the pure lead .22 bullet, as it passes the port.

Your're off topic Melvin. Either stay on topic, or get the hell out of here.

Bill

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by 223 fan
not th2 .22 unit in the AR. The 1 in 12 twist AR's and .22 units group 2" at 50 yds, POI is within 2" of the 223, too. No fighting rifle handles like a 1022 The sights bolt lockrelease, mag release, safty, all different, and POINTLESSLY so. What 's the matter, can't you shoot a .22 PISTOL good enough to hunt with it? Cant you stalk within 35m of small game? :-)

Off topic post again Melvin. Get on topic, or get out!

Bill

[Magnum88C]

Originally posted by Raider
Based strictly on utility, ease of customizing and availibility of parts, I would have to choose the Ruger 10-22. I have extensive experience with it and trust the design. A true workhorse in every sense of the word.

Have to agree, for those reasons. Mine wears a 4x Weaver scope.

As far as LIKING the rifle, the Marlin 39A takes it. It wears irons.

For SHTF, I have to go with utility over aesthetics, the 10/22 would be the pick.

Fire discipline is a given. Spraying and praying is for morons.

[andy]

able to LIMIT the discussion,and I prove you WRONG about that, and you HATE being shown up. THAT'S what your problem is. There's no POINT to the .22 rifle, as a shtf gun, because you can't CARRY BOTH the .22 AND a real fighting rifle, and you dont DARE not ALWAYS have the fighting rifle ready to hand, basically. You can THINK that you can tell when you will need the fighting rifle, but that's PURE bs. The swap of the .22 unit for the 223 AR is a 20 second thing, and the .22 unit is at LEAST as "good" a weaoon as is any .22 rifle. BETTER, in most cases, if the AR that is the "host" weapon for the .22 unit is suppressed,and the .22 rifle is not. ESPECIALLY if the .22 rifle is a non-auto,and a tube fed auto aint much in the way of a good idea, either.Got a CONCEALABLE .22 rifle? got a set of luminous sights on it? ambi-safety? is it rustproofed? lw, crisp trigger pull? Hell no, that stuff costs MONEY

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by 223 fan
able to LIMIT the discussion,and I prove you WRONG about that, and you HATE being shown up. THAT'S what your problem is. There's no POINT to the .22 rifle, as a shtf gun, because you can't CARRY BOTH the .22 AND a real fighting rifle, and you dont DARE not ALWAYS have the fighting rifle ready to hand, basically. You can THINK that you can tell when you will need the fighting rifle, but that's PURE bs. The swap of the .22 unit for the 223 AR is a 20 second thing, and the .22 unit is at LEAST as "good" a weaoon as is any .22 rifle. BETTER, in most cases, if the AR that is the "host" weapon for the .22 unit is suppressed,and the .22 rifle is not. ESPECIALLY if the .22 rifle is a non-auto,and a tube fed auto aint much in the way of a good idea, either.Got a CONCEALABLE .22 rifle? got a set of luminous sights on it? ambi-safety? is it rustproofed? lw, crisp trigger pull? Hell no, that stuff costs MONEY

Well MELVIN, I see you're still totally unclear on the concept. Illiterate as usual, and off topic as usual.

Bill

[mrostov]

There's not a lot I can't hit with my Ruger MkII pistol. The leader of the Minutemen of the 1960's, who lived off the land for over a year and a half while running from the feds recommended a Ruger .22 pistol for living off of the land.

The .22 Ciener kit in the AR is a better .22 rifle than you may think. I can make a coke can dance at 75m with one. That's with a 16" 1:9 barrel.

The Ciener is ammo sensitive and is not that reliable, but it's a neat thing to have.

All in all, probably the best, most reliable, and toughest .22 rifle I've used to date is a Ruger 10/22.

Just about the ultimate live off the land .22 rifle is a Ruger 10/22, 3 extra mags, a large 40mm scope of at least 4x, and a Butler Creek stock.

[andy]

WHY be without the ease of stripping cleaning, ambi safety, luminous siights, power, penetration, and reach of the 223, when you dont HAVE to, hmm? If use the CarBon 15,it AND the .22 unit weigh no more than the 10-22 does.

No, the Ciener unit is NOT "ammo sensive". You have experience with ONE (poor one) and I have experience with nearly a dozen. If you can't make one work reliably with nearly ANY ammo, you are just no smith, that's all.

[Teufelhund]

We all have many rifles of different types and most have several members of thier families and close friend that will be banding up SHTF. In my family it's not too hard to envision a mix of M1A's and AR's and a bolt gun or two for special use.

Back to the one .22 thing, I would definetly choose the 10/22 as a dedicated rifle, but would prefer to shoot .22LR though my CAR15 with a Ciener for SHTF use. I like the Cieners and wouldn't consider owning an AR without one, I don't find them unreliable at all, though they sometimes can stand some tuning.

A heavy barrel 10/22 is getting pretty close to the wieght of a CAR15 and no where close in utility value IMO. No way in the world I would leave a CAR15 in the safe and take a 10/22 target rifle SHTF.

My favorite .22 pistol is my G26 with it's Advantage Arms top end, light, accurate and good quality with the advantage of mucho cheap practice.

I rarely shoot "dedicated" .22 LR anything these days.


Teuf,

[andy]

being ignorant and a cheapskate. The only .22 worth consideration for shtf is a canned, pocket autopistol, and the M21 is the king there, because of its size, wt, and SA carry posibility, ease of mounting a can. The smith 2214 is a pretty nice gun, but its barrel is awful short to be internally threading for a can, and its safety is pretty slow to use, and basically "unfixable" by smithing. You could go with the expensive TPH walther, and PUT UP with the DA handicap, but fitting the longer, externally threaded barrel will add at least $200 to the $500 price tag of the gun.

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by andy
being ignorant and a cheapskate. The only .22 worth consideration for shtf is a canned, pocket autopistol, and the M21 is the king there, because of its size, wt, and SA carry posibility, ease of mounting a can. The smith 2214 is a pretty nice gun, but its barrel is awful short to be internally threading for a can, and its safety is pretty slow to use, and basically "unfixable" by smithing. You could go with the expensive TPH walther, and PUT UP with the DA handicap, but fitting the longer, externally threaded barrel will add at least $200 to the $500 price tag of the gun.

Good morning again Patricia!

Bill

[andy]

from a Raven, or a TPH from a Baur .25. :-)

[Stillwater]

Originally posted by andy
from a Raven, or a TPH from a Baur .25. :-)

Yeah, Sure TARD, we believe you!

Bill

[mrostov]

Originally posted by 223 fan
WHY be without the ease of stripping cleaning, ambi safety, luminous siights, power, penetration, and reach of the 223, when you dont HAVE to, hmm? If use the CarBon 15,it AND the .22 unit weigh no more than the 10-22 does.


The Carbon-15 is a POS.

The Ruger pistol is WAY more stashable, rugged, reliable, and indestructable than a CAR-15 rigged Ciener.

The CAR-15 is also illegal as hell in many of the places I travel.

For foraging, the Ciener cannot approach the surgical accuracy that the 10/22 is capable of.

For backpacking during 'normal' times, a stainless MkII and a couple of boxes of stinger plus a few CB longs is still one of the handiest things to have (you can manually feed CB longs in both the MkII and the 10/22 reliably via the magazine if you do it properly).

1) Ambi safeties are an unecessary luxury, and a marginal one at that. The 10/22's safety is already ambi.

2) You can get luminous sights for the MkII and red dot opticals for both the 10/22 and the MkII.

3) Tiggers can easily be done on both weapons. I've always found the stock MkII trigger to be just fine.

Originally posted by 223 fan
If you can't make one work reliably with nearly ANY ammo, you are just no smith, that's all.

That's horsepucky, John and you know it. They are NOT that complicated. I've dealt with several of them now, BTW.

The problem with the Ciener is that:

1) It's a kludge and it always will be, although it is a handy kludge to have around at times.

2) The QC on the Ciener from the factory varies WILDLY. Getting a good one out of the box is a crap shoot. Given my druthers I'd much rather have a US Army M261 .22 unit.

3) I shoot WAY more than you do and THAT is a fact. No matter WHAT you do to a Ciener, they will NEVER be as reliable as a MkII or a 10/22. They are a hunting and plinking tool, period.

Originally posted by 223 fan

No, the Ciener unit is NOT "ammo sensive". You have experience with ONE (poor one) and I have experience with nearly a dozen.


They ARE ammo sensitive. You just haven't shot them enough with a wide enough variety of ammo.

[Stillwater]

Mike, those are my conclusions exactly. And, I have both of the firearms you mention favorably. For the exact same reasons you put forth.

To any of you who don't know who mrostov is, he is a mod, over on the Patriotnetwork. He also has a reputation, on the Internet, of knowing his hardware, as well as, or better, than most people. I agree with that conclusion. I haven't seen him wrong yet.

Conversely, I haven't seen the TARD right, on anything, in the last three years I have been reading his BULL SQUEEZE!

Bill

[Teufelhund]

I would have to say though that a standard Ruger 10/22 is not "surgicaly" accurate IME and a target 10/22 is getting close to a CAR15 in wieght. For SHTF use I have to lean towards the CAR15 and Ciener.

We have 6 Ciener kits floating around our place, every one of my 3 kids have AR's and Cieners as well as my better half. Other than the first one I bought many moons ago (early 80's) used and battered at a gunshow they have all worked very well. The last couple have been outstanding. If fairness though they can stand a "fluff and buff" and they get them.
I have worn out the springs, but never had one break while shooting. They will gum up though, till they will hradly run but it takes a couple bricks of cheap LR's to do it. SHTF you would be shooting much less and cleaning much more so I don't find it a problem. Keeping them lubed with CLP works good as it's good on powder and carbon deposits.

The Ciener "ammo sensativity" goes away with a good "fluff and buff" job. The ammo sensativity stems from variable extractor tension caused by ill fit extractors on some of the Cieners, .22LR ammo can really very in rim thickness.

I am also of the opinion that the best dedicated .22LR is a MKII, my Leupold scoped MKII Target is more accurate than any of the 5 standard 10/22's we have.

However, my favorite MKII configuration is how I set up my kids pistols. A standard MKII 4 3/8" barrel with a Clark trigger and a LPA adjustable rear sight retaining the standard front. Keeps the wieght down but still gives the advantage of a good sight picture and trigger. The Clark triggers are acually rather cheap to buy, but time consuming to install. They come with tighter cross pin hole tolerances, so they don't wobble around causing that mushy pull and they are oversized for width. You have to stone them down in width so they fit well between the frame and the slide stop assem. Using a diamond bench stone makes it go fast. The rest of the intralls just need some flattning and polishing where thing rub. It takes an hour or so and a $15 part, but you get a nice crisp trigger that is far better than a "factory" target trigger.

The nice thing about the standard MKII's is that they fit nicely into any military holster that holds a Gov model. My kids like to carry them around in GI "Tanker" holsters.

The CARBON 15 is definetly a POS, a good friend of mine owns a large gunshop and every single one of them he sold came right back. They suck bad.

I didn't have very good luck with the GI .22 LR conversions.

Teuf,

[mrostov]

Yeah, I prefer the standard barrel MkII's myself, M1911 holster compatibility is a plus. On hikes into the boonies for a long time I carried a MkII in either an old style leather military M1911 flap holster or the old military leather M1911 shoulder holster.

Not bad for a weapon that is a bastardized varient of the Japanese Nambu.

My favorite MkII is the standard barrel with fixed sights in stainless. The only drawback to a stainless weapon is that you can't shoot too many non-plated bullets in them before they lead up.

My experience with the Ceiner has been slightly different than your's. I've seen some that had a buff, a lapping, etc, and it still periodically malfunctioned. I've worked on several that some buddies bought at the same gun show (rare event, guy had a whole table of new Ciener kits). That personal experience is mirrored in feedback I've received across the web. The best one I've had so far shoots for a while OK, but still has the random jam. I've never seen one yet that is on the same level of reliability as a Ruger .22.

If you have 6 that all work great, don't ever let go of them.

About Ruger... I've learned over the years that like the Cieners kits, Ruger's barrels can sometimes vary wildly in quality. All of the 10/22's I've had have been accurate. I've not had one that was a dog. But after my varying experiences with the Mini-14, and with the P89, I can see how you can get 10/22's of mediocre accuracy.

[Teufelhund]

All of them will go into a couple inches at 50 yards, but so will the AR equipped Cieners. I have a buddy with a custom heavy barrel 10/22 target rifle and it's almost Anschuzt accurate. Way big difference, though probually would mean zip in the context of SHTF rifles.

I think Ruger .22's are the cats a$$, they have so many models there is something for everyone and they are definetly rugged and reliable. Everybody should have a few IMO.

In the big scheme of things, IMO the .22LR would play a big role in SHTF survival use.

Teuf,

[andy]

post shtf, at least,not any longer than it takes to shoot somebody and get something better. The CAR is every bit as light as is a bull barreled 10-22, and it offers 8x the power,4x the effective range, many times the penetration in car glass, car bodies, trees and similar "cover". Only an idiot would deliberately "half arm" himself with a mere .22, when most of the opposition is going to have AR's, AK's, sks's, 30 carbines, Garands, and such. The AR-22 unit is less than half of the wt of a Ruger .22 pistol, So is the(canned) M21. If you cut the Ruger's barrel to 2.5", so that it still has 1.7" of rifling, and can it, it will STILL have to be an inch longer than is a 1911, in order for the can to have 100 rds of service life, in between cleanings. That 36 ozs and 9.5" OAL IS WAY too much wt and bulk for no more than such a gun can do. The .22 Ar unit is no longer, weighs less than 1 lb, and has at least twice the ability to forage and fight than the canned Ruger pistol has.

The canned M21 is 8" and 14ozs, with 2.2" of riflling, 2" groups at 25 yds.

A large, heavy .22 pistol can't be kept ready, while wearing a backpack and ALSO have a large, heavy defensive pistol at the ready,a nd you can't conceal more than one of them (in a fanny pack at the navel)

The pistol has a VERY minor role once the autorifles come out. Basically, about all they will be for is covering your butt a bit, when the rifle is disassembled and hidden in the pack. That BETTER be a pretty rare circumstance, or you wont be around long.

[Stillwater]

If you want a Ruger 10/22 to shoot really well, send you rifle to Connecticut precision chambering:

http://www.ct-precision.com/

I have had their work done to two 10/22's and the difference is quiet striking.

Bill

[mrostov]

What I've also found to be very light is a 10/22 with a Butler Creek synthetic stock and a 16", standard contour Butler Creek synthetic barrel (stainless steel lined).

Having a Ciener is a good idea if your primary is an AR-15. It doesn't weigh much and it carries well out of the way if you rig up a pouch for it.

However, to use it you have to disable your primary rifle. Also, if something happens where your AR get's diabled or lost, you also have no .22LR. If you get into a situation where you have to ditch or stash the AR you have no .22LR ready to use. If you have to switch primary rifles, you have no .22LR ready to use.

The Barreta M21 is a poor substitute for a .22LR hunting weapon.

The stainless MKII is about as indestructable as they get, and it's as accurate as the shooter can be.

One of my biggest disagreements with GK is that he's assuming that your gear only needs to last a year, as it will be over and 'normal' by that time. That is a crazy assumption. Besides, a LOT can happen in a year.

Having an extra .22 around can be priceless. It's worth humping the 2 extra pounds in your pack.

When I go backpacking, the stainless MkII and it's rig goes into the pack. During a bugout, that would also happen.

During a situation like that, my primary concern would be fighting and I'll be carrying a CAR-15 and an M1911A1, so the only .22 on my immediate person would be the Ciener unless I had to hump my pack or something happened to the AR and I was using a different primary.

Here's a cool variation on the MkII.

The Pac-Lite upper for the MkII and .22/45 http://www.tacticalsol.com are lightweight aluminum with steel barrel liners. Mounted on a synthetic .22/45 frame they are very light. I like their 4.5" bull barrel that's threaded with iron sights and tapped for an optic mount.

http://www.tacticalsol.com/products/images/5_guns.jpgproducts/images/5_guns.jpg