Combat shotgun reconsidered

[RIKA]

After shooting the Garand, Jack and I took time out and shot a few clay birds from a hand held thrower. We used my Rem 870 police shotgun. I did pretty good because I'm used to it - Jack not so good.

What I noticed :blush: was my tendency to short stroke the shotgun on repeat shots. I admit I need more practice, especially shooting under stress. That will come though the shotgun isn't my primary choice of weapon.

I'm really thinking about trading the 870 in on an 11-87 police model but that would mean that the 870 beat me. I'd rather master the beast.

What do you think. More importantly, if you were buying your first combat shotgun would you buy the 870 or the 11-87?

RIKA

[84 C4]

Mossberg, I don't mess with the Remington shotguns, they make great rifles, but I don't like their scatterguns...but to answer your question, I'd go with the 870 instead of the 11-87. You already have an 870, though, so why don't you just buy the 11-87? Why not have both?:D :cool:

[RIKA]

Money. I'd have to trade the 870 in for about 1/3 - 1/4 of what I paid for it. I could probably get the money for the 11-87 through a series of trades though it would take a while.

RIKA

[Half elf]

Personally I like a pump gun, and the "Remy" is about as close to a standard as we need. I havent used many semi's but the ones I tried didn't handle the switch from light to full bore as well as a pump gun does.

[Magnum88C]

I'd stick to the 870.
Many things can go wrong with the autoloaders in combat. Biggest problem is they are relatively sensitive to ammo used.

Get a set of 12 gauge snap caps and practice your "tromboning". Biggest tip I can give is treat it like a primitive machine, which it is. What that means is fire, yank the slide all the way back until it stops, then push it forward, hard, until it stops. Don't try to go easy on it, give it hell. You won't break it and you can build plenty of "muscle memory" using the snap caps to stroke, fire, stroke, fire. . .

If you don't mind spending the money, get enough caps to top off the magazine and go from the scattergun's "ready" condition (chamber empty or loaded) and empty the thing.

[RIKA]

Thanks to each of you for your valuable comments. There is nothing that training and familiarity with the weapon can't accomplish.

RIKA :)

[Garand]

I currently have 3 shotguns, a Mossberg M500 ATP6SP, a Winchester M97 Trench Gun and a plain jane Winchester M97 takedown. I'm not crazy about Remington shotguns because of the location of the safety and I had some experience w/ the Remington M1100. Shotgunning is a challenge. I shot a 3 gun match a couple of weeks ago where there were 16 rds of shotgun required on one of the stages. Was that a hoot!

Set out some sort of "jungle lane" with steel reactive targets and stationary clay pidgeons mounted about 1 1/2' off the ground. Get familiar with your chosen firearm. Use a timer, it adds a bit of stress to the practice, challenge a friend to the course, keep the competition friendly. Keep in mind what you are working for is a flawless execution of the stage above all other things.

I prefer the pump shotgun because it always seems that I have a variety of different loads available to me and the pump digests anything.

[Rich Z]

How about the Benelli M-3? Flip of the switch and you change it from semi-auto to pump?

[GBullet]

RIKA, I have used pump 12 ga. shotguns extensively hunting nutria and beaver in bayous and swamps.

At times, we were hard on our shotguns, but they never failed us. When a shell became stuck in the chamber, we would hold in the slide release button with one hand and the pump forearm with the other hand, while slamming the butt against the ground.

Shotguns are not perfect, nor are they universal weapons. Shotguns are at their best within 60-70 feet (20 meters for our Canadians friends) ;) The lack of pellet penetration and range are more than limitations, they are assets as well. They make shotguns well suited to darkness, populated areas and thick vegetation.

Here's a test for the non-believers of shotguns:

If you have access to a safe place, have a friend throw an old tennisball onto an enbankment while you try to hit it with a CAR-15 or other rifle. Now try it with a shotgun.

[andy]

ball, I'll worry about that. The only size target you have to hit with a CAR is the torso, most likely, 12"x 24", and with a bit of practice, anyone with a canned CAR can hit that FASTER than the typical bozo can with a pump 12 ga, neither one wearing ear protection. The CAR can do so MUCH more, why waste the time and money on the shotgun? You aint GOT a decent rifle and you AINT any good with one, so you HOPE that the shotgun's pattern makesup for your LACK of ability, that's all.

[Magnum88C]

I can put 12 holes in a torso faster with the 12 gauge than you can with your poodle popper.

We have real files, not pistols with a buttstock, like you. . . .wait, you don't have even that.

[GBullet]

Originally posted by 223 fan
the next time I'm attacked by a tennis ball, I'll worry about that. The only size target you have to hit with a CAR is the torso, most likely, 12"x 24", and with a bit of practice, anyone with a canned CAR can hit that FASTER than the typical bozo can with a pump 12 ga, neither one wearing ear protection. The CAR can do so MUCH more, why waste the time and money on the shotgun? You aint GOT a decent rifle and you AINT any good with one, so you HOPE that the shotgun's pattern makesup for your LACK of ability, that's all.

A bouncing tennisball is more representative of a rabbit or squirrel than is a stationary 12"x24" target.

Spend some time in a southern swamp, especially at night, and then tell us that a shotgun has no merit.

Spend some time outside anywhere on a dark night and then tell us that a shotgun has no merit.

Ask some Vietnam vets about why many pointmen carried shotguns.

Ask some Korean vets about the 10 ga. Browning pumps used in the 3-man anti-sniper squads.

Why did the British use 12 ga. shotguns in defeating the Malay communist insurgents?

Why were pump shotguns used by the U.S. in WWI and WWII?

Why were buck-and-ball loads the standard U.S. load in the Revolutionary War?

Why was buckshot issued for America's first 90 years?

[Magnum88C]

Why, if the shotgun is so ineffective, did the Germans in WWI try to have it outlawed?

[KJUN]

> Biggest tip I can give is treat it like a primitive machine, which it is. What that means is fire, yank the slide all the way back until it stops, then push it forward, hard, until it stops. Don't try to go easy on it, give it hell. You won't break it and you can build plenty of "muscle memory" using the snap caps to stroke, fire, stroke, fire. . .

I agree. My advice is to treat it "rough." If it breaks, there was something wrong to begin with....lol. I work the pump on my Mossbergs about as hard as I can in a relatively quick succession. Problems with feeding are VERY, VERY rare. Hard and fast action.

I don't and won't own a rem 870 Express especially in a 20gauge. If my life depended on it, I MIGHT use one instead of a rock.
KJ

[KJUN]

Originally posted by GBullet
RIKA, I have used pump 12 ga. shotguns extensively hunting nutria and beaver in bayous and swamps.

Where at? Sounds like the way I spent WAY too many years of my life in south Louisiana. Sorr for the bad spelling, but have you ever put down the shotgun and hunted them with a "flu-flu" arrow? What a blast!

Even once we got off of the lease where we had to harvest a couple thousand a year, I ALWAYS carried my .410 pump (A Western Auto gun made by Mossberg) and/or ancient Reminton .22LR with a 5,000" barrel (or so it seemed!) with me to pop a nutria while catfishing. The liver (and a few other internal organs) were awesome bait, and the meat was good smothered in onions or jerked.

KJ

[GBullet]

Mostly Hegwood Bayou and Bee Bayou. Hunted a lot in Felsenthal Swamp and Dugdemona Swamp, too.

No, never used a flu-flu. We used to ding beavers in the head with shotgun pellets as they swam by, just wounding them. That way they would head for land. A half dozen or so times I wound up finishing them off with a large knife.

We got five dollars for beaver tails in most parishes, ten dollars in Morehouse Parish. It's amazing how many beavers have been taken in Morehouse Parish (ha ha).

Last I heard, the state was still paying Prudhomme and some others to find a way to make people want to eat nutria.

[Garand]

GBullet, you forgot to ask why the Marines are carrying shotguns in Iraq or why the Canadians are carrying shotguns in Afganistan while patrolling Kabul!