The death penalty

[John in AR]

The "Felons and Firearms" thread made me think of this. My view of the death penalty is different from most people's and for different reasons.

Most people that I've talked to fall into two categories:

- They don't believe in it for ANY reason, or

- They believe in it for only two or three reasons (usually some combination of: murder, rape, armed robbery, kidnapping, treason, or child molestation)


I believe in the death penalty for only one offense: murder. My reason for NOT supporting it for other (admittedly hideous) offenses has nothing to do with altruism or "niceness" on my part; strictly pragmatism. Let's see if I can word this clearly...


Some goblin grabs my wife in the mall parking lot. Yes, we macho, pistol-packing types on this board can say she "shouldn't" put herself in this vulnerable position, but it does happen in an imperfect world. (This example could just as well be of a goblin that grabs a child from a playground for either ransom or sexual abuse.)

He cold-cocks her, throws her in his van, drives to the woods, and has his way with her for a few hours. At this point, he has to decide what to do with her. He can let her go, or he can kill her; that's his only two options at this point.

If he kills her and hides the body, his chances of being identified (and therefore caught) are much lower than if he lets her go alongside the road or in an alley. Many bodies are never found, and more than one "known" killer has been acquitted due to lack of forensic evidence that a body and/or crime scene provides. (If they don't find the body, they're less likely to find the scene.)

Follow me now... He's already committed rape and kidnapping; two of the things many people want the death penalty for. If the penalty for kidnapping or rape is the SAME as for murder, think about his position at this point. He can reduce his risk of capture and/or conviction if he "wipes out" the evidence by going ahead and committing murder, with no increase in potential penalty, can't he?

Once he's crossed the line where he's facing the death penalty, he has absolutely nothing to lose by doing whatever he can to reduce risk of conviction. And the "disappearance" of the one person who's often the only witness (the victim) absolutely reduces that risk in a HUGE way.

So by imposing the death penalty for anything LESS than murder, we literally INCENTIVIZE murder.

Frankly, I'd rather he had an incentive to keep her alive.

[RIKA]

A well reasoned argument, John. But I can think of another offense deserving the death penalty - maiming.

I mention this because I remember hearing (reading) of the man in CA who kidnapped a woman and cut her arms off. Seems CA law didn't exactly cover this crime and he got out in a few years (they gave the max sentence under the law). He got out intact but the woman he maimed - and who lived - is existing in a living hell even today.

Perhaps gruesome crimes like that should be included. Or maybe an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

RIKA

[Half elf]

I am a person who believes that if it was good enough for the victim then it should be good enough for the perp. If the victim was shot, so be it line up a firing squad, if it was burning, creamate the bastage, dismemberment, donate his wothles arse to a college and let medical students donate his organs, skin, and eyeballs. One of the far eastern countryies floods regularly, and build a basement for death sentences, 1st floor for lifers, and 2nd-3rd floor for short termers. I dont agree with the means, but do with the results.

[Magnum88C]

You make a good point John.
I'll have to rethink my position, but the problem is how do you adequately punish the other crimes you mentioned without resorting to torture?

Maybe torture is the answer? Before anyone goes off the hook, remember that for many decades after this country was formed, just about every town has a whipping post and stocks, which were rarely idle. Often in the stoicks one or both ears were nailed to the stocks, and when the sentence was over, the nails weren't pulled, the ears were sliced off. Sounds barbaric in the Age of the Wimp, but then, there was no huge tax burden for prisons because most crimes were paid for swiftly and the perpetrators didn't often repeat their mistakes.

Just something out of the usual "box" to think about.

[84 C4]

I believe in two punishments:

1) Restitutions to the victim and a $500 fine for the state; for the misdemeaners.

2) Execute the felons.

No sense wasting taxpayer money on prisons, that money is better spent on new highways, and the deportation of liberals.

[Stillwater]

I like the biblical, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

Anything less is just a waste of time and money.

Give the perp a fair trial in the morning, and execute the perp in the afternoon.

Bill

[KJUN]

Give the perp a fair trial in the morning, and execute the perp in the afternoon.

I disagre with this because of the number of cases where someone spends years in prison only to be found completely innocent years or decades. Rushing things too much will increase this stuff.

I believe in a VERY SPEEDY trail, but I don't believe in a trail that is even slightly rushed. There is a difference.

KJ

[KJUN]

Frankly, I'd rather he had an incentive to keep her alive.

Very good points that I can't answer. On the one hand, if you put someone like that in prison and let them out to do it again, the fault is at least partially on society for NOT removing that violent predator from society completely. On the other hand, what you mention is a very valid consideration. Let me state plainly that I don't agree with you, but it is making me reconsider my views. I believe that was your goal, and you at least reached it with me.

I'd still rather see that violent predator removed from this society forever - that's what they deserve. At least we know it won't happen again!

[John in AR]

Everyone's still civil; that's encouraging (and surprising) when discussing this kind of topic.

I understand the "wanting to remove them from society"; I do too. I don't want rapists, muggers, etc, just wandering around free society where my wife & kids are. Violent felons need to be removed from society, whether by means of long prison sentences, whatever.

All I'm talking about is "at what point do we impose the ultimate penalty?" Because once a scud is faced with "the ultimate penalty", he's crossed a line where he has nothing to lose and literally his life to gain by killing every victim, and every witness, to every crime he commits.

There's an old saying about murder, "The first one's real expensive; after that, they're all free". Scuds and goblins do understand this. Once they've committed murder, they have nothing to lose by committing more of them. But if he hasn't yet killed anyone, I think it's a bad idea to make murder "free" to him. If a guy's robbing a bank, and it turns into a hostage situation, he can possibly be talked out (or strung along long enough for someone to snipe or assault him). But if he's already facing execution for the bank robbery, then killing all the hostages costs him literally nothing, does it? And this is one of those "domino" things; the police KNOW he has nothing to lose by killing people at this point, so can they afford the time it would take to even TRY to wear him down...? (And talking/stall tactics ARE the most proven way to end those situations without innocent people dying.)

Don't misunderstand... How I 'feel', and what I 'think' are two very different things on this. If some guy grabbed one of my kids and abused him, I'd want to put a bullet in his head, as most all of us here would. But while that's true, I want the guy to have an incentive to NOT kill my kid afterwards; and if the punishment doesn't escalate with the escalation in crime, there is a built-in incentive TO kill the child, to reduce available evidence and eliminate the best (and probably only) eye-witness.

To discourage anything, it has to be expensive. This is true of anything, whether we're talking about import tariffs or highway speeding; it's also true of crime. That's why we have longer sentences for 'worse' crimes; the spectre of greater punishment 'discourages' the worse crimes. That's also why driving 40 mph over the limit carries a much greater fine than driving 10 over. Let's be honest with ourselves about something: why do so many of us drive 7-9 mph over the speed limit? Because of these two things:

A - the risk of BEING stopped, and
B - the penalty imposed if we ARE stopped

are both much less than if we drove 30 or 40 over. But if the penalty for driving 5 or 10 over was the same as for 30 or 40 over, we all know we'd see a LOT more cars doing 30 & 40 over, wouldn't we? Why not? There's no increased penalty, so it's "free".

Human nature is human nature, and the same principle applies to more important things as well; such as murder.

Once emotion is removed from the decision-making process, it really is that simple to me. Just throwing it out there for consideration; my life will go on if everybody doesn't agree with me. :duck:

[Aslan]

There are many considerations, many of them have been brought out - here's a couple more:

1) last time I checked, it cost more than 1 million dollars to execute a death row inmate - no matter how long he'd been there.

wtf? there are so many automatic appeals and reviews built into a DP case that this is the tab we tax payers end up picking up. This is totally whacked. I don't have an easy answer to this one, I don't want innocent people executed.

However, for the most part, the "innocents" that mistakenly end up on death row are NOT good guys caught in the system. they are by and large career crimals with a history of violent acts.

2) what are we paying to house, feed, educate and train criminals that are locked up?

I'd feel a lot better if prisons were totally self-sufficent as far as paying for themselves. I don't like picking up the tab for a place that does not rehabilitate, and in fact is a plce were convicts can improve their skills for comitting crimes.


Death penalty - I'm for it, but not at it's current price tag and procedures. We can argue which crimes are capital offenses, but the system is broken as it stands and is way too costly.

just my $.02

:devil:

[Stillwater]

Aslan:
If you want to reduce the price of incarcerations, and executions, just reduce the amount of Lawyers that can handle death panalty cases.

Reduce the amount of appeals a prisoner can get.

Reduce the amount of time a prisoner can appeal in.

Make it so a prisoners appeals must contain clear, substantive grounds, for the appeal.

Feed the criminals like Sheriff Joe Arpaio does in AZ. Arpaio spends forty cents a day on prisoner food. And the prisoners must work eight hours a day.

Arpaio's prisoners don't have big beautiful buildings to live in -- they live in tents, and wear PINK underwear.

Bill

[Aslan]

I know Joe, having had several meetings with him. (not personal friends or any of that crap) Many of my friends are also part of the sherrif's posse.

I like the guy, he's a bit egotistic, but hey so what?

Tent city, pink underwear, green baloney. To save $$ he eliminated coffee for the inmates.

He's on the right track.

:devil:

[Stillwater]

I know Joe, having had several meetings with him. (not personal friends or any of that crap) Many of my friends are also part of the sherrif's posse.

I like the guy, he's a bit egotistic, but hey so what?

Tent city, pink underwear, green baloney. To save $$ he eliminated coffee for the inmates.

He's on the right track.

:devil:

Since MELVIN is so pround about the many different jails he has been in, I wonder how he would like to be a guest, of Sheriff Joe?

Bill

[andy]

<font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, YOU are a felon, you dumbass. You commit MANY felonies a year, and could easily be set up to be convicted of MANY more, per WEEK. DITTO of your wife,mother, sister, daughters, etc.

[RIKA]

That sounds like the threat you made on several other forums, goonkiddie. Still nothing but hot air.

RIKA

[84 C4]

I always have a hard time trying to determine which post(s) that melvin is responding too.

****, YOU are a felon, you dumbass. You commit MANY felonies a year, and could easily be set up to be convicted of MANY more, per WEEK. DITTO of your wife,mother, sister, daughters, etc.

[Stillwater]

I always have a hard time trying to determine which post(s) that melvin is responding too.

Mostly MELVIN posts, and replies to the voices in his head.

[Aslan]

Actually, I don't commit any felonies, nor have I. (which is why I can and do pass all the required background checks that I have had.)

Why don't you list some of the felonies you think any of us have committed?

This should be a very entertaining list.

And don't forget to call us names in the process. Even though they will most likely be edited out, it's still entertaining.

:devil:

[Stillwater]

<font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, YOU are a felon, you dumbass. You commit MANY felonies a year, and could easily be set up to be convicted of MANY more, per WEEK. DITTO of your wife,mother, sister, daughters, etc.

As Aslan suggested, MELVIN, why don't you list the felony's we commit each day? And right along side of ours, just list the ones you have been CONVICTED for!

I have had several security clearances myself. I have had Extended Background Investigations, in my work as an Engineer/Designer. (Make you jealous MELVIN?) I have never had an arrest for any kind of criminal behavior, major, or minor. If I had, I would not have been given highly sought after, compartmentalized, security clearances.

I haven't even had a traffic ticket since 1988.

[dmstrmac1]

Having a family member murdered ,And waiting for justice to happen for the last thirteen years as the mudering pig sits on Death Row in San Quinten and milking the appeals process to prolong the inevitable,and all that commit murder know that they can milk the system the same way. I beleave that if the punnishment was actually death there wouldn't be as many people commiting the crime.And death row wouldn't have over 600 waiting to be executed. Give them all a double of the cocktail and get it over with

:uzi::uzi:

[SurviveNthrive]

Odds are I've known and spoken to a whole lot more murderers than most and definitely more than most homicide detectives, judges, and regular cops.

The average felon isn't considering the penalty when committing a crime...the vast majority aren't thinking it through and don't see the ramifications...their victims matter even less.

Attornies are the problem...I dealt with one guy who was a repeat rapist, who'd brutally abduct, rape, and torture women. He said he'd learned something...he'd strangle the next girl he snagged. Why? Because of a lesser penalty. He'd say that they engaged in consentual sex with sexual asphyxia and it went too far...hard to prove murder in such a case...his attorney's rationale was it'd be easier to remove the sexual aspect of the crime by moving it toward manslaughter then plead it down from there...combined with clever victim selection-picking the drunk flirt from a bar and following her home if she went alone or offering a ride as a nice guy, he'd get off then get off...if caught.

Many of them learn from their attornies...such as shotguns don't have ballistics, what not to say to the cops the next time, etc.

As for the Innocence project, I suspect them bastards are tampering with the DNA...seems strange that some guy in prison for snagging and torture raping a young woman being found innocent gets released and does the same thing...happened more than once. Not hard for them to screw with old evidence.

[cutter]

Old thread, but a good one.
MY take is that murder and treason are capital offenses and should be punishable by death. Rape and child molestation (which is usually rape commited against a child) should be punished by physical, not chemical, castration or the appropriate alternative for female offenders. A second act of rape or molestation proves there is no stopping a given criminal and would warrant the death penalty. Robbery would warrant the amputation of a hand. A second conviction would bring the amputation of the other. A third would warrant death as the criminal would have proven themselves unreformable.

All other felony crimes would warrant some length of prison time. This time should be spent on a self sufficient work farm as was suggested earlier. If they don't work, they don't eat. That said, I believe in rewarding hard work. If a given prison's production is sufficient to provide all needs for inmates and cover all costs, including the cost of the facilities and that of the staff, then the extra could and should be used to provide certain perks. Things like a wider variety of food and even some luxury items such as chocolate or a better selection of books and such entertainments could be aquired with the surplus. Before any of this, the prison must first pay it's own way. If a given prison were to fall short, then they do without.

This has a few benefits. First, such a system would require $0.00 of taxpayer money to operate prisons. Second, it would give incarcarated felons a motivation to work at productive purposes. Third, when they got out, these same felons would at least have valuable skills with which to make their own way on the outside. I have no problem with convicted felons having to fight their past in getting and holding a job. They should have thought of that before they commited a crime. I do believe that the current system hands them an excuse to not work or to commit further crimes so they can go back to the Folsom Hilton (yes I know Folsom has a well earned reputation for being anything but a nice place to be).

To be honest, I am a great fan of the idea of the "Avenger of Blood" as described in the Holy Bible.

[neolithic hunter]

if they have been convicted and sentenced, walk them to the gallows and be done with it. no appeals, no go backs, no do it again. drop them through a hole in the floor and get it over with.

[Jorge_Banner]

When Argentina was ruled by military juntas, from 76 to 82, many an interesting thing happened, but one comes to mind that’s relevant to this discussion: crime rates were much lower than in other times. The Argentinean juntas used to bound people hands and feet, put them on an Hercules (oh yes, we have some), fly several miles over the ocean, open the big back doors, and push people out of the plane. It is my understanding that the criminals were been given a much better chance than they gave their victims: they had the chance of learning to fly before reaching the ocean below. If they didn’t, it wasn’t anybody's fault but their own. And people new that you don’t f#*k with the military. After the guerrilla movements were defeated, we enjoyed some quiet times. We had many problems, of course, but quiet times.

What’s my point? Kill them frequently, publicly and gruesomely. People do learn from examples. The old time hangings were the way to go. I would improve it, though. I would favor piano wire and doing it slowly. And, of course, in a public plaza. The points are Justice, vengeance and the educational value. Justice because it is the way to go. Vengeance because the victims deserve it. And the educational value because people do learn and remember. And of course everything is better after every time you clean up the gene pool.

Things as they are today, Justice is a mockery and the only ones satisfied with the system are the criminals. Back to the good old ways. You do the crime, you pay. Big.

And on these matters, for all other offenses that don’t rate the death penalty, hard labor and part of the money goes to compensate the victims. A serious crime and the perpetrator gets hard labor and if he wants to eat, he works, no work, no food. And he has to work hard to pay compensation to the victim. First comes the compensation, then, if he works hard enough, there’ll be money left for food. Otherwise, starve.

And BTW, corruption in public office should be equated with murder.

[RIKA]

The C130 solution is too expensive. I favor the old rope dance with a public audience.

RIKA

[dmstrmac1]

I am a firm beleaver in an eye for an eye. I am registered to be a whitness in the execution of the pig that murdered my cousin in Stockton Ca in 1989 he was convicted in 1995 , His name is Danny Ray Horning. He tortured my cousin by burning his eye lids with cigiretts and shot him in the for head with a 22cal then cut him into pices and threw him in burns cut solugh in garbage bags. he had just served a year in prison for raping his adolesent daughter. After killing my cousin he fled to Az ,Tuson to be exact and was caught robbing a bank with a pistol he took from my cousin Sammy when he killed him. He was convicted in Az had sentenced to four consecutive life sentences. He escaped after a year,and hid out in the grand canyon for fiftytwo days before being caught. He was then extradited back to California. Found guilty and sentenced to Death thirteen years ago. Its long over due i I will crack open a bottle of Champagne and party harty when it happens. I say give him a Double Executioner.

dmstermac1 :): :)uzi:

[Jorge_Banner]

The C130 solution is too expensive. I favor the old rope dance with a public audience.

RIKA

Yeah. I remember a movie with John Wayne that kind of begun with the hanging of several people. Very educational. Why do simple and proven-to-work things have to change?

[Jorge_Banner]

I am a firm beleaver in an eye for an eye.

I'm with you, dmstrmac1. I say one year at the most is enough for appeals. Then, the wire.

[cutter]

I am in favor of the avernger of blood concept if available. Let the next of kin take care of it. I assure you that if it was done this way, justice would be executed and swiftly.

[SurviveNthrive]

I saw a clip regarding an execution in a foreign country, Liberia or whatever, when a convicted murderer was being taken out to be shot...his father, who obviously did a bad job of raising him tried the usual "He's a good boy, don't kill my son...he was getting his life together" thing when someone said something, probably "We'll take you too!" and the next thing is his father was yelling "Let's shoot that son of a bitch!"

I think that that same parent who defends the offspring they fail ought to be taken with the piece of **** if they so vigorously defend him...it's different when the parent loves their child and admits they're wrong, but when they get angry and violent about defending the murderer, take them too, because they not only failed society, they failed as a parent and won't admit it!