shotguns a joke for combat, really. slower

[andy]

than the pistol, to 20-30 ft, no faster than the auto rifle at such ranges, no ap capability, very limited mag capacity, Buckshot has very limited ability against cars (about like a .22 rifle has) Slugs just make the shotgun a VERY poor rifle, there is no feasibility in suppressing a shotgun's blast or flash. Most have no rustproofing, luminous sights are a $200-$300 custom proposition, etc. When you look at the TIMES posted for hits, at various ranges, the pistol and the rifle are far superior to the shotgun, except for a VERY narrow range, of 7/20-25-40m, (depending upon the load and the choke) Even at the shotgun's "ideal" range, the typical bozo with a pump 12, and no ear protection, can't hit man targets (either partial toros OR cover using heads) as fast as can the skilled man with a canned 223 auto rifle.

[RIKA]

You just don't understand the shotgun's capabilities and strengths. A shotgun makes noise and kicks, both of which you are sensitive to so you have to wear your DEPENDS when you shoot it.

ISTBY

RIKA

[Garand]

"Inferior Action Types are Inferior ONLY to those that can't master them"

Rika 03-26-2004

[SatCong]

Ther are very few miscreants who do not recognize, when they hear it, the distinctive sound of a 12 ga pump as a round is chambered, and therefore realize the potential for imminent serious personal injury if they proceed with their original intent. It is my weapon of choice for home defense, or facing numerous proximous opponents. I'm not alone in that choice and the reasons for said chioce are not born of ignorance or lack of precident.
Satcong

[andy]

so there's LOTS of guys as inept and ignorant as you are. Should that come as a surprise to anyone?

[Aslan]

so there's LOTS of guys as inept and ignorant as you are. Should that come as a surprise to anyone?

you can take comfort in the knowledge that few people are as inept and ignorant as you are.

:devil:

[Garand]

How does a man this dense, stay out of jail???

[robert garner]

Hey give hin time .He's workin on it!

[Hard Ball]

"shotguns a joke for combat"

That's why the US Army and Marines use them in combat.

[RIKA]

Actually Gunkid is a joke for combat. His delusions and inability function without his canned CAR and silencer will insure his speedy demise probably at the hands of some teenager shooting his/her Daddy's bolt rifle.

RIKA

[TODD 3465]

"shotguns a joke for combat"

That's why the US Army and Marines use them in combat.


Oh yeah they are a barrel of laughs; as when for example some dirt bag thinks he's safe behind a secured door and you use dust buster rounds to fubar the lock and/or hinges. :dgrin:

[Temujin]

Ther are very few miscreants who do not recognize, when they hear it, the distinctive sound of a 12 ga pump as a round is chambered, and therefore realize the potential for imminent serious personal injury if they proceed with their original intent. It is my weapon of choice for home defense, or facing numerous proximous opponents. I'm not alone in that choice and the reasons for said chioce are not born of ignorance or lack of precident.
Satcong

It is undoubtedly my choice as well for close quarters work, especially my Mossbergs and Benellis. The reason you just stated is one of the major reasons for this. Having a distinct psychological advantage over any would-be attackers is perhaps the most important aspect of all.

Other reasons are, contrary to what was originally stated -- speed, control and maneuverability. All this coupled with the ability to shoot an exceptionally wide range of ammo: buck, slug, flachette, incendiary, breech, explosive, etc.

Did I mention extraordinary stopping power? -- The ability to produce numerous critical wound channels in a human being.

Reloading is a breeze, quite inexpensive, and your options are nearly limitless for "special" loads.

-Temujin

[Glenn Bartley]

Yes indeed a shotgun with which to go through a door, it is a weapon of choice if I have a choice. I had a chioice for years: just my hangun, or my handgun and: a rifle in .223, an HK MP5, or a Remingtonm 870. I often chose the MP5 but also often chose the Remington 870. I would sya they ranked about equally for an entry gun, unless it was entry into a fortified location where I would usually take the shotgun. Damed good tactical shootin tool that Remington 870...

[Ankeny]

Place a half a dozen pepper poppers downrange, from 7-15 yards, with various spacing. Start at the low ready. The current breed of combat shotgunners, Cooley, Hill, Butler, etc., will have those poppers on the ground and be half way through a Snickers bar before... well you know the rest.

[John in AR]

Imperfect, perhaps, but imperfection does not automatically relegate a device to "joke" status. I switched from my mossberg 12 gauge to my CAR-15 for personal protection and duty use several years ago, and prefer it greatly; but if I heard an opponent racking a pump shotgun in a dark room, it's highly unlikely I'd think, "Thank god he's got a shotgun."

Regarding speed, that's a matter of training, especially if using an auto. As far back as 1991 or 92, I remember John Dixon (anyone familiar with 1980's IPSC knows him; he's the only "known" person I can name-drop) switching from his Remington 1100 to a Benelli auto, simply because the remington didn't cycle as fast as he was pulling the trigger. These were loads stout enough to cycle the 1100's unomdified gas operating system, so they weren't terribly 'wimped-out', yet he'd be pulling the trigger for his second shot before the gun went completely back into battery. (And yes, he was hitting with his shots, not just spraying. He was very good.)

When you're triggering shots faster than a semi-auto can cycle, that's fast shooting; doesn't matter who you are.

[Garand]

Shotguns like any other firearm when used within their limitations are an excellent firearm. When I was in the Middle East, a 12 ga pump was the weapon of choice for feral dog packs. Try a night patrol on Vancouver Island of the coast of British Columbia under double canopy foliage. It is so black you can hardly see your hand in front of your face.

It takes both time and effort to master it, if your incapable of mastering it, choose a different firearm. Any man who disregards a man armed with a shotgun, is a fool. Personal tactics can either enhance a firearms ability, or cause that ability to fail.

[polesmoker]

The crowds in Iraq have a great respect for the yawning mouth of a 12 gauge Benelli.

We use them for crowd control and forced entry, hinges and doors do not survive slugs and the breacher still has a capable weapon in his hands.

14" Barrel
5+1 capacity

Pistol grip sotck with reduced length of pull

[Paco]

The psychological impact of the appearance or sound of a pump action is not high on my list of attributes because those half hearted souls who would quail at that sight and sound would most likely also wet themselves over the appearance of any firearm in resolute hands. I'd prefer to be prepped for the really hard cases.

Now of course with proper loads (buck and slugs) they deliver a mighty blow. Great if the fight only needs one or two hits. Which is probably the vast majority for civvies.

But, I cannot ignore the evidence that the heaviest hitters there are tend to favor a rifle caliber carbine for practically all their CQB uses.

IMO, the shotgun is not the all purpose combat tool that conventional wisdom used to argue. It is actually highly specialized for a narrow range of extremely close range applications.

[polesmoker]

It is actually highly specialized for a narrow range of extremely close range applications.

We agree on that.

A potential agressor who suddenly finds themselves staring down the barrel, where just before there had been an aid package, of a 14" 12 gauge brought rapidly to hand from a rear sweep stowage position tends to stop RTF now and reevaluate what they were thinking.

[Coyote]

A 12 guage shotgun doesnt penetrate like a rifle. its not as fast as a rifle. It doesnt have the range of a rifle. But when your within 50 yards, #'s 1 or 2 steel or hevi shot will make you leak like a sieve, you pill. And as for slugs? they dont have the range of a rifle. thats about all they lack. If you measure a 12 ga in caliber, it is .780 inches inside the bore. Get hit by that, and your not getting back up again.

[Magnum88C]

And as for slugs? they dont have the range of a rifle. thats about all they lack.

I don't know if they still do, but Remington used to "guarantee" that Remington sabot slugs fired from Remington rifled barrels will hold 2.5 MOA to 200 yards. That outranges the 10" AR that some advocate.

[Garand]

I guess all those shotguns in Iraq really don't exist!

[Garand]

Or the Remington 870's that are used by Canadian Naval Boarding parties along with MP 5's & Sig P 225's!

[Stillwater]

Well, Garand, it looks like you have kicked NUTTY JOHN in the ass again ... I like it!

[RIKA]

Interesting that they were all pump guns. Maybe the military knows something that GK doesn't.

RIKA

[Magnum88C]

Interesting that they were all pump guns. Maybe the military knows something that GK doesn't.

RIKA

Even the FRENCH military knows more about combat than Melvin Da Turd.

[Garand]

Everybody knows more than gunkid!

[Garand]

After successfully testing a nine pound shotgun attachment (that went under the barrel of an M-16) in Afghanistan late last year, the army is shipping a new, and lighter, weapon of the same type to Afghanistan. The LSS (Lightweight Shotgun System) weighs less than three pounds ( 2 pounds, 11 ounces) and has a five round magazine, versus three for the earlier, nine pound, "Masterkey Breaching Module." The LSS is a 16.5 inch long, 12 gauge shotgun and can be operated right or left handed. It fires solid shot for blasting open closed doors, or lower velocity, non-lethal (most of the time) rubber slugs for dealing with hostile crowds without killing people. A stand-alone version weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces, is 24 inches long (with the stock collapsed). The LSS was rushed through development, testing and manufacturing because troops in Iraq expressed a need for this weapon. A batch of 200 have been produced and 50 are on their way to Afghanistan for field tests during actual operations. The LSS proved very reliable during testing, with some 15,000 rounds being fired.

[Kent]

Also, getting hit by, say, 5 00 buck is the equivalent to being hit with 25 .32 rounds.
shock value wise.

Its the number of shot hitting the target, squared.

Just something I read a while back. I don't have the source for this.

[Wylycoyte]

Also, getting hit by, say, 5 00 buck is the equivalent to being hit with 25 .32 rounds.
shock value wise.

Its the number of shot hitting the target, squared.

Just something I read a while back. I don't have the source for this.

I read that, too.

I think it's the brand of horse**** from which "stopping power", "energy transfer", "knock down power", "fpe" and other crazy theories come from.

Penetration of a given round must be deep enough to hit a vital target. That could be a fraction of an inch if you hit the neck or the eye. Could be 14"+ if you shoot at a big, fat guy from an oblique angle and he has his hamhock-like forearms in the path of the bullet. Size of permanent wound cavity is the second issue. If the bullet is big enough, it has a better chance of crushing important tissues on the way through. If the bullet is moving fast enough, you get a temporary cavity that can cause damage if the tissues struck stretch more than their elasticity can take. On pistol bullets and buckshot, this last bit usually isn't a factor.

With buckshot, you tend to get multiple pellets hitting, with greater chance of messing up something important per shot. No odd explanations or assertions of the unproveable are required.

[copycat]

Having know a lot of vietnam vets, the shotgun was usually the weapon of choice for close quarter combat.