Blocks, parries, and getting hit

[Aslan]

All the martial arts that I'm familar with teach basic blocking techniques. Most of them teach strikes as blocks to advanced students.

Few schools, in any of the arts, though, seem to teach getting hit. (for obvious insurance and liability reasons)

let's take a simple block - the inside block. The arm starts with the elbow bent, the forearm perpendicular to the ground. Keeping the forearm perpendiculare, the arm moves accross your front and your palm rotates to be pointing towards your face. (your hand is in a fist for this block)

The idea is that your forearm will contact any punches thrown and deflect them.

Done sufficiently fast, and with some force, this simple block can be a decent strike on your opponents arm. Turning your waist at the same time, increases the force of the blow and also presents a smaller target for your opponent's punch to strike.

Ok, so far, so good.

You need to practice both delivering a hard block an receiving one. It's funny to see people's reactions the first time they ever experience "hard" sparring. They tend to react to the pain in such a way that it throws their timing and game plan completely off. You don't want your focus to shift because your are feeling something unexpected.

It should also be noted, before anyone goes off and tries this stuff, that you can get hurt or hurt someone if you don't know what you are doing.

This was just a small discussion of a linear type block. Linear movements are usually associated with Karate, but most Gung Fu (Kung Fu) systems also include linear blocks. (just like most karate styles also include some circular movements.)

Btw, I'd like some feed back on whether or not to continue these posts - are they of any interest?

Any topics you'd like brought up?

:devil:

[RIKA]

I like your posts. Please continue. Would appreciate anything that I could pass on to other women or people having lesser strength. Realize that this might not be such a good idea as some of the folks are pretty elderly. Sorry if its a bother.

For myself I appreciate it all. Thanks

RIKA

[Aslan]

ok, will see about weaker vs stronger stuff...

good idea.

:devil:

[DJetAce]

Play the angles. There is only so many ways any type of strike can hit. Look for the angles and watch the 'triangle'. That's the points between the jaw and the two sholders. Depending on what type of attack you will see a sholder drop or another rise.

[RIKA]

I saw a great discussion on that triangle thing and will post it tomorrow.

RIKA

[Aslan]

I saw a great discussion on that triangle thing and will post it tomorrow.

RIKA

In our system, we move almost always on an 45 to our opponent, except when doing Pauqua, or Hsing I, or a couple other styles.

Moving like that means a lot of reverse hip type postures and strikes, which is very foreign to some of the Japanese / Okinawan karates. A lot of arts teach striking with the same foot you lead with. Reverse Hip tends to be opposite fist, opposite foot. (left foot steps, right fist strikes)

Moving on the angles does a lot to limit your opponents options, unless they are used to fighting in this manner.

Pauqua does a lot to create opennings because you are circling your opponent and constantly changing directions. The change ups create openings and the directional change lends momentum to your strikes.

But, all of this probably has little practical usage if you are looking for dealing with a stronger attacker (as in self defense for women).

Distance is your friend.

Next post will be on defense when grabbed...

:devil:

[Aslan]

Women (and men too) have to worry about someone grabbing them from behind.

If you are grabbed from behind, bear hug fashion, the worst thing to allow to happen is to be picked up off of the ground. If your arms are trapped, and your feet have nothing to gain any leverage with, you have problems.

A lot of what you can do depends on how your attacker has you. If his grasp is high, then you should have some use of your arms. Sometimes, just raising your arms to your sides will cause you to slide down further in his grasp.

At that point, I'd probably remove as big a chunk of arm with my teeth as possible. (Huge BSI violation - Bodily substance isolation, i.e. keep the possibly diseased icky stuff off of yourself.) But when fighting for your life, anything goes.

If your feet are on the ground, feign resisting forward away from your attacker, but suddenly spring back into him.

One or more hands free? Use panther knuckles on the back of his hand.

A lot of this is so much easier to demonstrate than to write about...

There's hundreds of things that can be done just on this one grab alone.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

A small fixed blade knife carried in front of the hips makes for good anti-grapple medicine. Done right, the knife requires no wrist articulation to draw and little elbow movement, which is great in clinch or bearhug situations. If carried it edge-up, it facilitates ripping motions by better enabling the lats to get into the movement.

As an example, a friend of mine screwed a Teklock onto a Cold Steel punch dagger and placed it parallel to his belt around 11 o' clock. It's out and in business in no time.

There are some fine ideas here:

http://www.shivworks.com/clinchpick.asp

[Aslan]

Nice knife! Thanks for the link.

:devil:

[andy]

in the time it would take to grab such, and BEFORE you could move it at all, could have grabbed his nuts.

[RIKA]

in the time it would take to grab such, and BEFORE you could move it at all, could have grabbed his nuts.

Your normal form of prison greeting, right andy?

RIKA

[Wylycoyte]

in the time it would take to grab such, and BEFORE you could move it at all, could have grabbed his nuts.

Keep right on thinking that, Melvin. It's not true, but that never stopped you before.

[Aslan]

in the time it would take to grab such, and BEFORE you could move it at all, could have grabbed his nuts.

Maybe, maybe not. It also depends on what your objective is. Going to an edged weapon escalates the situation. Which may be totally prudent. opening the femoral artery pretty much ruins your day.

we could spend a lot of posts just talking about being grabbed from behind.
:devil:

[john42]

One tech. I learned long ago is to get out of a grab from behind where you are lucky enough to have your arms free, and especially effective against a full-nelson. Essentially you just flail your elbows at his head, which should be right behind yours, but that's the tricky part. You have to get a major twist at the waist and hips (and FLING them elbows) to rotate with enough force to do any damage, otherwise you run the risk of making the person who is trying to hurt you madder than they already are. As far as wekaer vs. stronger there are a myriad of techniques, most of which would involve distractions and/or feints to allow you a split second advantage, whether enabling you to strike, get away, access a weapon, whatever. The main skill to have is recognizing that second and reacting in time.

John


P.S. Keep 'em coming Aslan!


Okay I completely forgot that I was going to second Aslan's theory about training ppl to get hit, with this short story. (Warning rant ahead)
I had a wake-up call a few years back when I was doing some friendly sparring with a guitar student of mine, who had also done some boxing. (I have had some boxing training) So when he asked if he sould use his "workout gloves" instead of the more padded versions we normally use (couldn't tell you the brand, but those foamy sparring gloves, not quite real boxing gloves)
Anyway, these gloves had only about 1-2 inches of padding on them, which I realized as soon as he landed his first punch. (About 10 seconds into it) Well, I noticed that it hurt, but we kept going. I am a few years more experinced than he, so I was able to keep him off of me for the most part, and still land plenty of punches, but when I hit him, it basically just knocked him around a little bit, while the few he was able to land, were growing more and more painful, especially as he started hitting spots he had already hit! Well, after about a round and a half my nose finally got knocked around enough to start dribbling, and we called it a day. Well in the time it took me to go inside and wash up, my face had revealed exactly how bad it was, with a huge mouse under my left eye, black eye (also on the left), slightly bloody nose, and a nice fat raspberry on my side where his glove had caught some skin. Fun fun!!! Since then we always use equally padded gear, and he has actually moved away.
But (the whole point was) I definently learned the value of being able to take a hit, and keep your head and do something about it. For about the first 20-30 seconds after he landed that first punch, I backed way off and went majorly defensive, trying to keep from being hit again. Well, I got hit anyway, so I switched to actively trying to hit him (alot), and making him worry about when to try to take a random swing in between me pounding on him. Well, thanks for reading my rant! Happy fistfights to everyone! :-punch:

Also, I mentioned this elsewhere, but if anyone is in the Texas area and would be willing to get together for some training I would love to set it up, just contact me!

[SatCong]

The book "SAS Self-Defense Techniques" is a quick read, with well illustrated and understandable, examples for those who cannot train more formaly. Barnes and Noble is one source, The Mililtary Book Club also has it.
SatCong

[RIKA]

Thank you Satcong. Will check it out.

RIKA

[brass hammer]

neat 'reading'. when the pain starts 'sinking in' it's time to go to the ground[taking him down to the ground ,my favorvite] or break contact.

i've been in a $hitload of knuckle-ups.


but this negroiod thats renting my mobile home is one slick combatant!


the simple moves he showed me[after 16 years in the can,6 on death row,he can 'MAINTAIAN HIS SPACE 'so to speak, OH! YEAH! his name is JAKE]

Althoug he had plentey of time to master the CRAFT, he is kinda back wards, always waTch there HANDS, thats what they can hurt you really bad with, and his training with me is all strength on strength with ones ownself,


BUT thats where the 'killer' strikes come from, i'm ramblin' but it's fun phuckin' around with this DUDE, ha! the first time i tried to 'latch' on to his guy



he took my 'lead arm an had me lookin' at the night sky,nothing flat!

thats when i slung him in the pool, after that.


if you all ever' MEET ' JAKE i suggest a 12 ga. hand shake![ha! he's o.k. don't be shooting my night fighter]




thanks.

[john42]

Yeah, my dad has that SAS book (and maybe another?) and I have studied (well, read it a few times anyway) that and a few Army and Marine books as well. In my experience military h2h is alway idirect and simple, so I would recommend picking up any of the military books. SAS, Army, Marines, SEALS (they have some baaad sh*t), Isreali Special Forces are some butt-kickers too.

[andy]

in order to benefit from reading about techniques, etc, you have to have had at least SOME formal training, in stretching, balance building, etc. Without quite a bit of one on one correction of your stuff as you learn, all you will be doing is hardening bad habits and sloppy moves.

[john42]

I have actually had quite a bit of formal training over the last ten years, most of it private and very good. (well, most) As well as contiunually working out with my friends and family, and any new ppl i can talk into it. Asfar as the books go I had a marine buddy showing me stuff at the same time, so it was more like a private lesson than anything else. Books are good for info, but anything i read that i like, i go and practice, and if possible, have somebody demonstrate stuff before even wasting the time to try and learn some off-the-wall technique.
Well, i didn't mean to go off there. What is everybody else's training background? I have formal training in boxing, Mong Su Dom Tai chinese karate, Krav Maga, and Ninjitsu. I have hung around/sparred with/been kicked by various ppl involved in Kung Fu, Makoto Chi, boxing (i like boxing), The U.S. Marines, and Shoto-Kahn. Look forward to finding out!m (And anybody on this forum with some experience feel free to speak up!)

J

[andy]

u TRY getting knife out, and cutting me, same signal I reach for your nuts, and you wont HAVE any.

[gripper]

Its an option.Like anything else,its good to have a plan B.Geometry of the knife looks...interesting.Not sure if it would suit me,but hey,I've made it through tough times with worse in the past.I'm knda partial to the single edge Cold Steel puch knife,but the csabbard is a little less than useful.I nvever could understand why such a cheap plastic clip was used.WTH,I usually dispense with the clip and use para cord(or athletic shoe lace) to sew it inside whatever garment is suitable.otherwise,for small fixed blade workhorses, the CRKT folks have a few affordable options. The Ryan Plan Bsuits me as a neck hanger...wish I could find an affordable Nealy Pesh-Kabz(fixed ) though.

[KJUN]

u TRY getting knife out, and cutting me, same signal I reach for your nuts, and you wont HAVE any.

Why do you keep talking about grabbing nuts?

[RIKA]

GK has spent too much time in the squirrel factory. Wait till you've seen him in his WW1 flying cap and goggles (Rocky & Bullwinkle). :D

RIKA

[Aslan]

For a black belt, you seem to have a limited set of tactics and moves. There are some very simple moves that can render your grab inneffective. Some of them can be done as part of getting the knife. If I get the knife first, you will lose the use of one or both hands as the flexors are severed - probably permanently.

Or you may find yourself suffering from a thorasic trauma.

One trick ponies invariably get their lunch handed to them.

:devil:

[gripper]

Simple DOES work,no point in complicating things unneccessarily,butyou should at least train on the more advanced techniques if for no other reason than have a chance to spot something being telegraphed....or at least to be able to get out of the way&take countermeasures.
Hey;someone here is right...he DOES spend a lot of time obsessing on grabbing men by the nuts :dgrin:

[BigJon]

Aslan, is my aging memory failing me yet again, or do I remember correctly from several years ago (old Liberty Front days) that you teach Krav Magda? Somewhere up in the Northeast maybe? I seem to remember that someone there did. Thought it might be you. Can't remember ... as usual

(Now, where are my damn keys!? ... Oh, they're right here in my hand ... sorrry)

Best,
Jon

[Aslan]

No, not Krav Maga - I'm into Kuntao Silat (indonesian Kung Fu) - it isn't pretty, but it works. A lot of Kali and escrima is folded into the art as well.

:devil:

[SatCong]

The DI that taught us swabbies on shore patrol was of the opinion that every block was an opportunity to put some pain on your attacker. A stiff block has been known to forestall further assault. It's been three decades and I still can't fault that jarhead's philosophy, God save him!
SatCong

[gripper]

Ya Cong,you are right....i've always taken the notion that anything within reach should me made a target.Slip and hook work HURTS .Insides of the biceps are good for that thing ,as a few other choice areas.Think hammer fist or a good ol'e hook .Or the actual block itself can invade space&transmit force into the attacking/offending limb.
Anything that discourages harmful activity (especially directed at ME)is a GOOD thing. Think of it as Applied Social WOrk/Behavior Modification 101. :dgrin:

[Aslan]

absolutely, every block should be a strike. A number of strikes are designed to limit what your opponent can do to you while you are striking...

And any block that doesn't should be a transition so you can put a bunch of hurtin' on your opponent.

A really fun target is the front of the shoulder, right where the joint is, from straight on...

:devil:

[brass hammer]

i was in a bar this evening [agaisnt my will]
when'a neck stabbin'/stickin' OCCURED, well' the bar bad asses were'nt around[just me]
it was pretty fun as I was'nt knee deep in this one, but the bouncer got 'CRACKED' across the nose with a pool'Q'[ ha!it was pretty funny as he threatend to throw me out cuz' I was offering whisker 'RIDES' to the little shot booth twit.,.,_+|%$##@!! after i was 'cut off' THE HAND GRENADE exploded...... in the left corner,,,,.... broken pool 'q's bitsh's ass's fling everwhere, ha! great fun was had by [1] and all, i guess! i drank BEER !

and just covered the DOOR with a bar stool on my right shoulder/long neck in my left hand!!!!!!.
the moral of this 'adventure' is! leave your name/face/hat 'AT THE DOOR WHEN YOU DRINK WITH ....,,,...?????????

[DELETED] THANKS.

[Wylycoyte]

A really fun target is the front of the shoulder, right where the joint is, from straight on...

:devil:

Especially when you step in and battering ram it with the point of your elbow. I'm sure you're uncomfortably familiar with that one from your Kun Tao background.

[Aslan]

Elbow strikes are probably the most effective CQB strikes you can deliver, and can inflict a heck of a lot of damage...Definately where it is far better to give than receive...

:devil:

[BigJon]

No, not Krav Maga - I'm into Kuntao Silat (indonesian Kung Fu) - it isn't pretty, but it works. A lot of Kali and escrima is folded into the art as well.

:devil:

Who am I thinking of, then? Wasn't there someone back at LibertyFront who taught KM out in the Northwest somewhere?

Jon

[Aslan]

I sorta remember someone talking about Krav Maga...

I looked into it a few years back, but the school was more than an hour away from my home, and my schedule at the time made it difficult (or impossible) to get to the school in a timely fashion.

:devil:

[polesmoker]

u TRY getting knife out, and cutting me, same signal I reach for your nuts, and you wont HAVE any.


Right, because no one can possibly guard their crotch with one hand and arm while using the other to get the knife out.

Step back, guard, draw knife. Now you've had to reach forward and are fully exposed to the blade.


:laugh01:

[Wylycoyte]

Mr. SHTF took the post out of context yet again, Pole. I was referring to a short knife carried forward of the hips in a kydex sheath, particularly from a clinch range. Its hard as hell to defend against due to its speed, especially if its preceded by an attack to other guy's high line.

Somehow it got morphed into a "1-2-3, draw!" leatherslap contest.

[Aslan]

He has to change the topic mid-stream. Otherwise he looks like an idiot.

Supposedly, at least he claims, he's a black belt....

I've never encountered any martial artist of any ranking that showed that much lack of discipline or control. Nor have I met one that doesn't understand the basics (most of his stuff registers at around a yellow belt level - learned a couple things and now beleives that they're sh!t hot - until another student brings them back to reality.)

It really stands out in his "I'm invincible" and "My strikes cannot be blocked" posts.

One thing I have learned over the years, is that even if your technique is perfect, stuff happens. And it happens a lot when you have an attitude.

:devil:

[polesmoker]

It really stands out in his "I'm invincible" and "My strikes cannot be blocked" posts.

Bad knees and he's invincible?

I've never seen a strike that can't be blocked, hell stepping into many strikes diminishes them enough.

[polesmoker]

and before we hear any crop about how his knees aren't bad.

it seemed too likely to hurt my knees. Both are injured, from way too many hard kicks into the air,but one of them is far worse than the other.
http://www.patriotnetwork.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14153

[Aslan]

You Bast*rd! using his own words against him. He'll ignore this thread now, there isn't a lot of wiggle room for him left.

:devil:

[polesmoker]

It's not sporting to attack a known weakness so visciously but there's no sport in slamming johnny around, it's like fish in the bottom of a short empty barrel.

His own words hang him, he's too stupid to realize it though.

[gripper]

Oh man,are we going through this"I cangrab your(whatever"faster $hit from Andy/yowie/.223 fan/GK again?For what its worth ,nothing and no one is 100% for 100% of th etime.Most anyone can take out anyone ,given th eright circumstances &opportuninties;its all about maintenance training,pushing yourself to improve(and slow th rate of backsliding),and to use your HEAD for somnething besides a close quarters discussion ender.Awareness,avoidance and evasion are (and should be) priorites;once the situation tells you its getting "interesting",well its anything can (and will) happen day.
I got my share of busted up parts,although luckily,my knees,spine&hipds arte still mine.The rest? The factory warranty's long gone.you do what you can ,and push yourself how and where you can.Thats how I spend my mornings.At this point I'm grateful(and lucky) to be able to do what I still do.
GK;when are you going to resume study or practice? I recall you mentioning a martial arts background that included Korean styles back in your puppy pusher days.What stops you from getting back into it? Hell ,it'd be good,get you someplace besides behind a keyboard.Hell, go join a gym.I don't pretend to be enamored of the "leotard& crappy canned music " atmosphere,but even if its around me, I just tune it out;I'm ALL business if I'm in the house.And some gyms also have martial arts/H2H type classes.Besides ;I kinda LIKE the flexibility part (Muy Thai class at my gym is loaded with beautiful women!).Of course,on the day the teacher or her better students read my mind I"ll have a grin on my face at my own funeral!
...Serious, thoughno one is 100% with where they're at all the time;how about more walk&less talk?

[zipgun]

Yea while your attention is focused on my groin and not on my hands I cut your throat. "Just grab his nuts" is a pretty lame post!

[andy]

No trained man HAS to "focus" on any one part, even to hit it, much less GRAB it, dumbass. I"ve seen men nearly pass out from panic, and just feeling a hand being driven between their legs. wtf makes you "think" I dont practice? :-)

[KJUN]

No trained man HAS to "focus" on any one part, even to hit it, much less GRAB it, dumbass. I"ve seen men nearly pass out from panic, and just feeling a hand being driven between their legs. wtf makes you "think" I dont practice? :-)

OK, I know I shouldn't, but I have to ask: how do you practice grabbing men's nuts? Don't the men mind, or do you just pick men that like that sort of thing to practice on? If it is the latter, how long do you "practice grabbing it" before they let you stop and go back home to your wife? LOL

[Aslan]

No trained man HAS to "focus" on any one part, even to hit it, much less GRAB it, dumbass. I"ve seen men nearly pass out from panic, and just feeling a hand being driven between their legs. wtf makes you "think" I dont practice? :-)

How about most of your posts indicate maybe, maybe, a yellow belt level of expertise?

Plus you have a really poor notion of what it is the strikes actually do. Most of your martial arts boil down to two or three posts:

Kick the groin or leg, backfist, and nut grab. Oh yeah, you mention the cat stance every once in a while because it has a cool sounding name.

And all of your techniques are unstoppable, which is probably the biggest giveaway of all.

Anyone with any real experience knows that anything can be blocked, anything can miss, and sometimes stuff just happens.

Why do you think that most advance techniques contain 5 or more strikes and movements? stuff happens and you are creating opportunities. strikes 1 through 4 may not connect for whatever reason. #5 is the one that does. You don't stop there, you keep moving and transitioning, to the next set of techniques, canned or spontaneous.

Only an ignorant fool would assume that the one kick or one strike will do the job.

Hows that for why we think that you don't practice and don't have much experience?

you asked, so I hope you like the answer.

:devil:

[gripper]

Aslan,thanks for wording it better than I could....every so often my articulation wiring mis-fires(punchy?),and I resort to my cave man grunts&hoots.Personally(so far) simple works for me simply because I am NOT in the 'ranked "category...that and the fact that I tend to drop back into the "repeat as needed" damage manual(translation-I'm an un-subtle sort).Its always cool to learn or be reminded of what the focus should be. Later!

[Aslan]

no problem bro.

The bottom line, is you move and hit, repeat as necessary until the threat is eliminated. Whether you use a pretty art form, or nasty raw fighting, doesn't really matter in the final analysis.

You either win, or you lose. That's it.

90% of winning is simply refusing to lose, the remaining 10 is split between skill and luck. (you could be way more skilled than I, but I get a lucky shot or two in and suddenly it doesn't matter who is better than who.)

But nobody in their right mind, including any world champ black belt, purple sash (depending on your system), would ever rely on a single strike.

Even Dim Mak (death touch) techniques include several follow up moves and strikes.

:devil:

[zipgun]

Yea right grass hopper "snatch the pebbles from between my thighs" . What are you like 3 feet tall because if we are about the same height getting to a position to lay hands on the jewel box will require you lowering your gaurd and exposing your head. You also place your self in a position of vulnaribility positionally by being lower to the ground then me during free movement.