Reloading the 5.7x28

[Rich Z]

I found a source for a die set for this caliber. Evidently C&H Tool makes it. But I haven't a clue if any sort of reloading data or components are available. Anything else shoot a 5.7mm projectile?

Anyone seen any reloading data at all for this caliber?

[AZ COLLECTOR]

the 5.7 is the same as .223 as far as bullet dia goes.
think 22 hornet or 218 bee bullets as far as reloading simular velocities.....
not sure on powders yet
looking at starting with W748 figureing it is slow enough to start and planing to work up from there. also please not MidwayUSA is selling RCBS dies for the 5.7x28 will post on them as soon as they arrive....odd size rim too...thinking same as 25acp for rim dia.
sean

[Rich Z]

Actually I did find a source for a die set (made by C&H Tool) but I haven't followed up with an order for one.


CH Tool. Send a money order for $84 (shipping included) to our address below
with your UPS address ( no PO Box).
Arms Depot (937) 253-4843
746 Watervliet Ave
Dayton Ohio
45420


Are you sure about the diameter of the projectiles for 5.7x28 being the same as .223 (.224)? I thought I measured them and there was a difference, but darn if I can remember how substantial it is.

One of the reasons I never followed up on the reloading die set is because I wasn't sure any components were available, much less loading data.

Please let me know if you find out any more concrete information on this.

I assume you have a FiveseveN? :)

[AZ COLLECTOR]

i do have one ........
will mic the projectiles real quick here.
but if i remember right the issue of "5.7"mm was just rounded up....like 38spl is a .35 cal projectile just sounds new better and different.

OK put the digi caliper to it best i can do at home....

it is only acurrate to .001 +/- .0005

still got .224 for both

thinking i am going to have to fill several 5.7X28 cases with water and see what the capacity really is. just eyeballing it thinking .221 fire ball .218 bee and i think it is a little more than the .22 hornet.
funny thing is they list H110 for the hornet....wondering if W296,H110 might be the ticket other thoughts are 2400 or 748....really unsure thinking the 748 will be too slow....don't really wish to blow up or damage my IOM just yet :rolleyes:

any other thoughts from others....this is new territory for me.
sean

[AZ COLLECTOR]

oh and i forgot...
never used C&H dies....suger yes dies no :)
how do they compare to RCBS....hornandy...and lee?
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/816782
that will get you to the RCBS 5.7 dies

http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/applications/esearch.exe/search?category_selector=all_products&search_keywords=5.7

that will get you to the 5.70/.224 referance that makes me a little more sure of my digi calipers measurements.

only thing left is finding the lightest bullets possible best i can do so far is 40gr....and thinking they should be designed for .22 hornet speeds.

other opinions and sage like wisdom always welcome.
have a nice day
sean

[Rich Z]

oh and i forgot...
never used C&H dies....suger yes dies no :)
how do they compare to RCBS....hornandy...and lee?
......
sean

Why the admonition against C&H? I have a set of their .50BMG dies and got them AFTER rejecting the RCBS die set. With the RCBS dies I was snapping and pretzeling decapping pins about every third case. Haven't had a bit of problem with the C&H die set at all. Also bought a .50BMG case trimming tool from them as well that works well. Haven't had a bit of problem with either the stuff I got from them nor in dealing with the company itself.

Sounds like you had a bad experience?

[AZ COLLECTOR]

lol
did not intend to flame C&H :bawling:
please note i wrote
never used

could also be written as "have no expirience with them." will attempt to be more clear in my posts.

please accept my humble apologies (no sarcasm intended)

sean

[Rich Z]

Oh an apology on my part as well. I think I read more into your statement then you intended to imply. :headbang:

On track of this thread, I thought I saw the 5.7x58 die set on Midway's website a little while back and it was rather expensive. Sigh, would be nice if standard .224 projectiles would work for reloading. But not sure I like the idea of experimenting in a roughly $800 gun...

BTW, have you picked up some 20 round mags for your IOM yet?

[AZ COLLECTOR]

got two of them when i purchased the IOM
2-10rd
1-20rd
and ordered a spare 20rd.... :bawling: they would only let me purchase 1 spare 20rd :rolleyes: i tried several more times seems the 20rd mags still a little scarce.

went thru CDNN to purchase weapon as i work part time for a gun shop doing repairs, cleanings, fitting....ect. helps me hone my gunsmithing skills and it's amazing how much I learn just listening to the old timers and factory reps( the latter can be full of BS)

well nice to know we arn't still :argue: about C&H

and as soon as the dies get here from midway i'm gonna start working up some loads...thinking i forgot to order a shell holder with 'em oh well. :headbang:

have a good one
sean

[Rich Z]

Man, I wish someone would come out with a little carbine in 5.7x28. Something like that Beretta Cx4 Storm would be a real fun toy in this caliber. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

This is a pretty interesting caliber, but it won't survive for long if other guns aren't made that will shoot it.

[Rich Z]

BTW, here's a photo I took a while back comparing the size of the cartridges for 5.7x28 and .223...

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/57_223.jpg

[AZ COLLECTOR]

that looks like a umc .223

funny thing i was thinking the same thing when i bought the pistol....ammo may not be around very long. :bawling:
so i bought 2100 rds of it. will buy another case when i see which way the market is going. figure 4200rds of brass should keep me busy for a while.

i gotta assume you have one too.....after shooting a few clips have you noticed the brass dust( or flakes) in the pistol on cleaning?

i am thinking an stainless revolver would be amusing in this chambering. taurus seems to like to make odd ball revolver chamberings we may have a chance if they see a demand. i think the demand may become reality if the ammo price lowers a bit.
would make for an interesting pen gun as well. :dgrin:

aditional side note HK is making a 4.5mm as well not sure but is that about .20cal? Had a US army guy bring a handful of empties. seems the army is testing out HK's new toy at the Yuma Proving Ground. :uzi:
sean

[Rich Z]

Well, look at it this way. If the ammo becomes obsolete, in 30 years you could probably sell it as collectible at $1 or more per pop.

I wouldn't mind seeing a semi-auto FN P90 hit the streets. Now that the high cap mag ban has gone away, maybe that will happen. Long shot, I know, but with a 10 round limit, no way that puppy would show up in the marketplace. With a bullpup configuration to keep the 16 inch barrel from looking downright weird, I think it would look OK.

Wish they had come out with a carbine and scrapped the idea of a handgun right off the bat so the steel insert cartridges wouldn't have gotten tagged as AP. Not that I think they are any more AP then an SS109 .223, but then again, I never did understand the logic of what designates a "penetrator" and another as "armor piercing". Heck, if body armor is the determining factor, then throwing darts could be considered as armor piercing.

Yes, I have an IOM. But sad to say I only shot it once and planned to shoot it again real soon and didn't clean it. That was a couple of months ago. :crap: I sometimes worry about how many other guns I have done this too and really need a good cleaning before YEARS go by and I pull them out again.

It's a real fun gun to shoot, so I really should make an effort to play with it again soon. Really pretty accurate as well, as far as I could tell from my informal plinking. I really wouldn't mind getting night sights put on it then have it as my "nightstand" gun.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

well forgot to order the shell holder.
there is always tomorrow to get one i guess.
so far the funniest discription i have heard of the 5.7x28 is lol
a stretched ou 25acp blown out and necked down.

[Rich Z]

Hey, please let me know if this is a "one of a kind" shell holder or if something common will work with it.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

well midway is announcing coming soon for the shell holders.

in the mean time you wouldn't happent to have lyman #32 shell holder would you?

it is meant to fit 25acp

the two case head sizes are really close not sure but it would be worth a try.
my local shops here don't have one in stock and midway claims special order 30 day waiting period. gonna order one anyhow but if you have access to one this part of the subject could be layed to rest.
sean

[AZ COLLECTOR]

update on reloading equipment

the 25acp case holder is a little too small
can and has been opened up as a hack job( dremel and patiance)
this is a really ugly method but has provided me with something that is still awaiting delivery according to midway usa.

anyone who has any wildcatting knowledge please feel more than free to chime in. will not hold anyone responsable for any failures do to thier suggestions.....after all i think this is largely uncharted territory as of now.

since this is a blowback operated pistol i intend to start with low power loads. that way the worst that should happen is the slide fails to cycle fully.
if anyone disputes this i am all ears. will be doing first run with a 40 grain hornandy V-MAX have some 35 grains on the way.

have not selected powder yet but winchester small pistol primers will be used. if i see pressure problems at the primer end...will try small rifle primers and a further reduced charge.

have some more research to do concerning powders.
more updates later.
sean

[Rich Z]

Did you check with C&H to see if they have a shell holder? I'm glad you mentioned it because I may very well order a die set from them and would want a shell holder along with the die set.

Heck, maybe I'll remember to measure those projectiles. I have a real nice micrometer so I should get pretty accurate readings. I know I did that once before, and I thought there was a 5/1000ths or so difference between the 5.7 and 5.56.

Going out of town for Christmas, so I'll try to remember to do that on Sunday.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

please do measure as i posted earlier my digital calipers are only acurate to .001" +or- .0005"
and thank you for the posts at least i have someone to chat with as i work tward a possible rapid and unintentional disassembly of my newest toy.
never suffered a KaBOOM by my own reloads but did start reloading as a result of purchasing reloads that resulted in a KB of one of my pistols. fortunatly the pistol had a magazine foward of the grip and my hand was intact after words. it did dewstroy magwell and frame however irrepairably.

sean

[andy]

too big a waste of time and money for me. Can get the same ballistics out of a 9mm, with the right bullet. High velocity does nothing for the REALISTIC range limitations of the pistolero (when he's under fire0 Everybody misses the chest (a LOT ) at a mere 25m, when under fire, no cover, no ear protction. In fact,most shots miss the chest at 10m under those same conditions.

[Rich Z]

too big a waste of time and money for me. Can get the same ballistics out of a 9mm, with the right bullet.

Apples and oranges.

The SS190 is the 5.7x28 mm Ball round. Its projectile will perforate any individual protection on today's battlefield including the PASGT kevlar helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target (titanium and kevlar). The SS190's conventional design allows it to be manufactured on existing production lines, and its lead-free composition eliminates range contamination.

Here is a pic of what the 5.7 SS192 ammo will do to a level 2 vest followed by two phone books when fired from the FN Five seveN (note that this vest stopped a .44 magnum, .357 magnum, and .45acp):
http://www.armslocker.com/pics/57x28impact001.jpg

The 5.7x28, from what I have heard, was designed for initial penetration of ballistic vests and light personel armor then incapacitation through tumbling action of the projectile. So which do you think would penetrate a ballistic vest better? A 9mm diameter projectile, or a 5.7mm one, at the same velocities?

[AZ COLLECTOR]

1st the good info....

FN used a powder that i have never seen before to load the 5.7x28
it is a ball powder very light grey and about 1/4 the diameter of W296 or H110
my thoughts are that do to grain size it is a relatively fast burning powder. but you never know. there was 6.8gr of this powder.
thinking we need to know who loads the ammo for FN and who they buy powder from.

now for the other part of this post....

too big a waste of time and money for me. Can get the same ballistics out of a 9mm, with the right bullet. High velocity does nothing for the REALISTIC range limitations of the pistolero (when he's under fire0 Everybody misses the chest (a LOT ) at a mere 25m, when under fire, no cover, no ear protction. In fact,most shots miss the chest at 10m under those same conditions.

as usual andy's mouth has engaged with no connection to the brain.
9mm same ballistics???? WTF not a chance ever hear of sectional density?
in order to accellerate that 9mm to the same velocities you would have to use one of those famous super duper can kill a T-Rex if it just passed by close enough aluminum snot rockets. you may well attain the velocity then.
:laugh01: you would be the last to understand sectional density combined with velocity is required to perform at longer ranges. your 9mm super snot rocket aluminum spit wad would lose velocity too fast to be effective over more than very personal ranges. the 5.7 will do it at 50meters.
this is sort of explained by ice picks penitrating body armour but a 357mag failing to.

further more this is a weapons platfor designed to do this from the begining not duct taped together. :nyah: and a cartridge designed to work at these pressures and velocities. it also has the recoil of a 22lr auto pistol and IS LEGAL. :nyah:

the real reason for my purchase of one.....i WANTED IT AND IT'S AN ODDITY.
second may wind up being banned and be difficult to aquire.
third because i didn't have one yet
forth because it is a differnt design.

sean

[Red October]

A couple of comments for AZ Collector:

1. Thanks for the Midway link for dies. Huntingtons.com also lists dies for around the same price.
2. Couldn't agree more on reasons for acquisition. Purchased a Five-seveN last week for pretty much the same reasons.

Has anyone used dies from Huntingtons? I haven't yet (or Midway for that matter. Pretty much used Lee, RCBS, Hornady, Pacific, etc).

Hoping the ammo will get cheaper, but thinking about dies, just in case.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

lol i could be mistaken but i have never seen a midway die.
believe they just sell redding rcbs lyman lee ect...
the quality of these is pretty well know and midways return policy/customer service is awesome.

C&H dies were recently recomended to me will have to try them out....thinking i will need one in .270

still have slightly cold feet reguarding reloading the 5.7 without any starting point. but as i am chewing through the factory ammo rapidly it looks as if reloading attempts will appear soon.

any info out there that is note posted by gun kid would be rather helpful.
sean

[Red October]

You were absolutely right. Midway and Huntingtons both sell RCBS dies.
I received mine earlier this week.
I currently have requests in to all the major powder manufacturers and also the major bullet manufacturers for any reloading data they might have. No joy yet.
There do seem to be .224 35gr HP slugs available, if we can find the charge info.

If I get anything useful, I'll post it.

[andy]

you never heard of MISSING, while under fire, at 10 ft, dummy? Sectional density my ass. First you have to HIT the guy who's wearing the armor. How about you put on a 24 layer vest, and let me pop ONE rd of 55 gr, 2100 fps Split NOse at it, from 10ft away, hmm? No CHANCE it will go thru it, right? I mean, those 25 gr brass .25 ACP's, at 1200 fps, never made it thru the Safariland vest. I was just imagining it. Same thing with those 180 gr brass .45's, at 1100 fps. Those big holes in the vest just appeared there by magic. I have no CLUE what I'm talking about.

[DaRkWoLf]

Melvin,

FYI, FN made the 5.7 SPECIFICALLY to overpenetrate body armor at point blank range. It has been FIELD TRIAL TESTED in the P90 WS to go CLEAR THROUGH level IV WITH Ceramic Plates, go on any military video site and you will see the demonstration.

[Hasher]

Hmmmm here we have andy's admission of making AP pistol bullets. I wouls expect he gets a visit from the BATFE real soon now.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

curious.....
andy ...."How about you put on a 24 layer vest, and let me pop ONE rd of 55 gr, 2100 fps Split NOse at it, from 10ft away, hmm? No CHANCE it will go thru it, right? I mean, those 25 gr brass .25 ACP's, at 1200 fps, never made it thru the Safariland vest. I was just imagining it. Same thing with those 180 gr brass .45's, at 1100 fps. Those big holes in the vest just appeared there by magic. I have no CLUE what I'm talking about"
you mean you actually produced that kind of velocity????
and you managed to make those in solid brass?
do you have a pic you could post of it?? just the bullet loaded or not
what did you use to turn them or did you cast them?
when was this? i thought that no one did that anymore.

personally i would rather not think about having to put holes in a bullet proof vest. that would mean the gangsters and muggers are getting entirely too smart. you might find if you were polite and DID NOT have an attitude with peace officers that they would be more relaxed and not hassle you. after all they are there for our protection and to enforce the laws.


RED any info you get on the 5.7x28 would be most appreciated. chickened out on blazing a trail reloading it. wife told me if it went KB she would.... :rolleyes: stuff it where the sun don't shine :bawling: .
something about alot of $$ and stupid male ideas.

sean

[Rich Z]

Anyone got any feel for how the supply of available 5.7x28 will hold out in the near future? I'm thinking that if someone other manufacturer's don't start making more guns for this caliber, it's going to go the way of the dodo bird.

Yeah, we can reload it, I guess, but I think I would rather buy more ammo and just salt it away. That would give me a bunch of brass to play with later on down the road.

AZC, did you ever get that shell holder problem figured out? Does this cartridge take a unique holder or will something else work?

Maybe you should video take your test sessions with your reloads. Would hate for you to have a major KB and we all wouldn't know what NOT to do! :-poke:

[41mag]

Here's why we all http://www.nynewsday.com/other/special/amny/need one.

It's the dumbest link I've ever seen.Have to click on the story headline & it'll load.

Wierd.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=120515

Try this way.The first link prolly won't work

[Red October]

AZ: I have a chrony on the way from Midway. I mic'ed the factory slug last night and it's definitely a .224, so the only real issue is getting close to the right grain weight and length. Hornady and Speer both have HP slugs in the 30's. I'm planning on trying one of these first. I'll start out low & work up to the published velocities. Certainly I will pass along powder of choice and load when I get something I like.

RICH Z: I have found ammo (from another forum) at www.wholesalehunter.com. They don't yet list it on the website, but they have it for $17.00 / box of 50. So far, this is the cheapest I've seen. Their part number for the ammo is # 10700002.
Also, www.huntingtons.com has a shell holder (RCBS) for $16.95. You order it by cartridge name. I have two and they fit very nicely.

41 MAG: Nothing specifically to respond to, other than that I am also a fan of .41 mag. I'm currently on my fourth (two Smith 657's, one Smith 57, and a Dan Wesson 41VH).

[WebSlave]

Actually, I bought 2100 rounds for $699 a while back. From Arizona Gun Runners, if I recall correctly. Not sure if it is still going for this price or not, but I do recall several places offering it for right around that price at the time. At one point CDDN had a case (2100 rounds) for $649 with free shipping, but I don't know if they still offer that or not.

[Red October]

Can you give me a link or number for CDDN?
When I search for this, I get a 'computer direct' website hit.
Thanks.

[Rich Z]

Oops! It is CDNN, not CDDN.... Sorry. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/

Please let me know what you come up with. I may want to order another case myself.

BTW, I just got a notice that the backordered 20 round magazines for the FiveseveN I ordered from Arizona Gun Runners are being shipped to me, finally. So looks like another load has come in. Grab them while you can.

[Red October]

I looked this morning at CDNN and didn't see any ammo listed. Maybe they don't bother posting it on their site. I haven't called yet to verify.

I received the ammo from WholesaleHunter last night. It came packed in a military 7.62x51 ammo can, which was inside the shipping box. Twenty boxes made the can less than half full, which explains why a 'case' is 2100 rounds.
The ammo that came bears an FN lot number and is, of course, SS192 type. I must admit that 'practice ammo' being hollow-points is somewhat of a culture change for me.

[Rich Z]

Arizona Gun Runners says they still have the ammo at $699 per case.

http://www.arizonagunrunners.net/Products/FNMfng/fnmfng.html

They also offer the "other" ammo to LEOs, if you qualify.

[Red October]

Thanks for the heads-up on the cheap ammo.
I do find it odd that blank ammo is LEO.

I'm not LE, so I don't qualify for the FMJ's.
I could reload some, I suppose, but on my single-stage press it probably wouldn't be as cost effective as the factory HP's. I expect the FMJ's will probably come around once the hype dies down a bit. After all, there are more than a few legal cartridges (mostly in rifle chamberings) that will perform similarly. Remington's .30-06 Accelerator comes to mind at 4080 fps. While it is a rifle cartridge, more than a few handguns (mostly single-shot) can fire it.
Sort of a moot point for me anyway. When I carry a handgun, I load hollow-points.
I haven't had to worry about penetrating body armor for several years now, and don't anticipate needing to anytime soon.
Should an 'LA' type situation occur, SWAT & the PD are more than welcome to handle it.

[mickey223]

Any more news on reloading the 5.7. I've looked at several forums, but have yet to see any specifics.

Thanks

[Red October]

So this weekend, I experimented with reloading the 5.7.
As you know, there are no exact weight slugs available. The diameter (.224, I have mic'ed this) is plentiful; slug weight (28 grains) is not. I purchased some 33, 35, and 40 grain ones from various suppliers.
The ammo is manufactured with 28 (SS192), 31 (SS190) , and 55 (SS193 subsonic) grain slugs.

The first problem you will encounter is that the factory slugs are quite long for their weight. A 40 grain slug is the only thing that comes close. The 33 grain Speer slugs are about 1/2 the length of the factory ones. I tried them first, but the accuracy sucked. I tried the longer, 40 grain slugs, and broke my gun!

The polymer take-down lever appeared to be the first point of failure, which allowed the metal clip (which blocks the slide) to raise up. This obviously happened while the slide was recoiling, which was a bad thing.
The front T-rail seems "lifted" at the rear. The front of the slide that grips the T-rail is bowed outwards from the recoil impact. Barrel and receiver seem fine, but who knows. The entire take-down mechanism is damaged.

According to the chrony, the projectile was only traveling at 428 fps. Overpressure obviously was not the problem (no indicators on the brass). It would seem that the Five-seveN is only built to withstand the normal recoil of the 28 grain slug.

An expensive lesson for me. Hopefully others will gain some benefit from this.

I'm going later to buy a new one. Not sure if I'm going to try a repair or not. (Not even sure if parts are available.)

[Rich Z]

Jeeeeesuuuss! Sorry to hear about that! Man, what an expensive lesson THAT was, to be sure! Maybe it's a good thing I haven't had time to order reloading dies, otherwise I could have been in the boat with you.

I'll bet this post is REALLY going to dampen any other enthusiasm about experimenting with reloading this round......

[Red October]

I hope that my experience will give anyone pause before jumping into this.

I now have Five-seveN number 2. While at the gun shop, the dealer mentioned hearing a rumor that FN was going to begin manufacturing heavier grain bullets for the pistol. That should prove interesting. Mine showed no signs of stress until the 40 grain slug was fired. I don't think I'll be the first to try out any heavier bullets.

I spoke to Browning this morning (apparently they supply parts for FN in the US). They have SOME parts listed for the Five-seveN, but not all, and they could not disclose which parts, or what the prices are (??). I am considering sending the gun to them for a repair estimate. Haven't decided yet, but I hate to just write the first one off.

I have not given up on the concept of reloading this round, but I don't think I'll be pioneering anymore on a polymer gun.

[rl56]

Red October, what powder and charge were you using that caused the damage. I may have a safe load for the 40gr.

[Rich Z]

Well, that was plenty enough incentive for me to go buy another case of ammo. Looks like it might be a long, rocky road to get reloading data down pat. Might lose a few guns in the process, which I really don't want one of mine to be on that list.

Plus I am reserving a spot in my vaults for one of those P90 semi-autos when they become available, so I want to make sure I have enough food around to feed it.

I heard that the semi auto version will only come with a 35 round mag instead of the standard 50 rounder in the full auto version. Any truth to this?

[JP480]

Finally I've found a forum on the 5.7,and i'm very interested in reloading.As you can see i'm new to this site and a novice reloader.Let's keep the 5.7 scene alive,long live the 5.7!

[Red October]

I was using Alliant 2400, 4.5 grains of powder. I expected this to be a very low charge. It did seem to be; the muzzle velocity was in the 400's of fps.
I expected the end charge to be on the low end between 6 & 7 grains.


Rich: regarding the P90, I haven't heard anything about smaller mags, but I'll keep my ears open.

[Rich Z]

Hey, I saw someone on Gunbroker selling a case (2000 rounds) of 5.7x28 for $1,500!! I just ordered the same thing from AZ GunRunners for $700. Maybe I should have ordered TWO cases? :shrugs:

[brass hammer]

damn! that's bad news to hear,RED OCTOBER!
i am in to the concept, of what you fella's are into, and might just 'mark time' until it's right to join-in on you guys pistol adventure!


as i feel it is the 'wave' of the future!!!!!!!!

[Rich Z]

I think once you shoot one, you'll be pretty much sold on it. It's like a Mattel toy gun with teeth. Weighs almost nothing. And 20 rounds of those zingers on tap in a handgun is nothing to sneeze at.

One thing that bugs me is that I asked about the night sights for this gun, but was told that they FiveseveN night sights won't fit the civilian model. Huh? Why in the world would they do that?

[JP480]

Check out impact guns website they listed 5.7 night sights but they are out of stock.Anybody know if they are actually available to civies?

[Rich Z]

Just got word that the 5.7x28 ammo is on backorder until mid March. It might get REAL scarce when FN releases their semi-auto P90.....

[AZ COLLECTOR]

got an idea here...
perhaps load devlopment would be better in a cheap single shot.
like a contender barrel chambered in 5.7x28.
then we could get the velocitys and pressure right with a safety margine.

second thought.....i could be way off on this but could the powder charge have been too low?
blow back action= a weight delay system
if the impulse was stretched out longer could that cause a problem?

or perhaps the brass didn't get enough pressure to expand gripping the chamber?

just a few thoughts.....and man i really feal for you....so sorry about the pistol.

sean

[brass hammer]

well, your right,A-Z!
on the BASTARDIATION! of the 'pip-sqeek' cartridge to BEGIN WITH!
by wanting to 'push' ,,what-ever? thro' it ,,,,IT!

[Rich Z]

My impression on firing mine was that they must be using a very fast powder for the charge. Muzzle flash was pretty much non existent, but I was firing in daylight, so I'm only comparing to other guns I have shot with different powders.

But heck, hearing about a gun blowing up (and not a CHEAP gun, at that) sure puts the damper on enthusiasm for trying this myself at home. Even using a Contender barrel for initial testing, how to you quantify all of the details needed to make sure the test round WON'T blow up your FiveseveN? The single shot barrel tells you nothing at all about how the round will react in the semi-auto action. Maybe looking at this in a different way would be better. Maybe a stronger semi-auto action barreled for the 5.7x28 would be the better route. Could a 1911 be adapted to shoot this round? Well, sure, I assume it can, but I guess the keywords are "easily" and "cheaply". That way get some background info on loadings by reading the brass and playing around with recoil springs in the test gun as you try to fine tune a load.

Just rambling, I guess. Sure do hate it when I think of that gun blowing up.... :crap:

[Chippathingy]

Here’s some brainstorming I was doing on this (while multitasking, so excuse the lack of continuity)
How is the "delayed blowback" delayed?
I have read the barrel recoils much like a modified short/long recoil type action.
http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0110.html
What is the slide made out of? Alloy? Partially synthetic?
A lightweight slide would make it fragile with heavy recoiling rounds.
The ejector looks kind of fragile too.

At first it sounded like heavier recoil springs and a heavier slide are in order.
But that wouldn’t keep the recoiling barrel from being the weak point. This seems like a design flaw. No real way to re-enforce it (What do you guys think?)
That’s where is broke right? (I don’t want to read the last few pages again)
How is the recoil spring laid out ?
How deap was the bullet pressed into the case ? Could the excess pressure be a result of bullet depth?

I have a book with a field stripped Grendal P-30. It looks like the 5-7 could have been based on this pistol and up scaled or re-engineered for a hotter round.

Were I to design a pistol like this and still keep it small, I think I would go with an HKP7 type gas piston or other locking system. Blowback, delayed or not, seems inappropriate for a potentially high pressure round.
Its all about recoil impulse on the case head and pressure curve/spike.
Without test barrels and lab equiptment this would be hard to gauge accutely.
Purhaps start with loading data methodology for non-locked breach blowback weapons like a .380 or etc.

You know, I was thinking...and maybe I'm out in left field here...but its possible they modified the pistol or built it a certain way to limit its hand loading potential because they knew some one would load up monolithic solids or ss109s and make it more AP then the commercial loadings...and cause a media nightmare...just a thought.

Some insight, from one of the alleged 100 countries that have purchased the weapon would be a good start.
Find someone who stress tested it and rejected it for service and they can give you the whole story, or at least give you something to work with.

If you're going to go the 1911/ParaOrd/Glock route you might was well try to wildcat a .224 boz or .223 Timbs type round with a hotter charge.

[Chippathingy]

most blowback operated pistols I have cooked rounds for worked best with no roll or taper crimp. A light cannelure type was ok.
Are you getting too much pressure from a heavy crimp ?

[AZ COLLECTOR]

not really trying to defend the single shot theory but....
my intent was to get something that would allow comparison between the factory loading and the handload. such as velocity (not the greatest indicator)
flash(this is not really great either do to the rather large possibility of flash retardent) recoil (this isn't bad but not great either) pressure signs in the brass (somewhat subjective)
from looking at the powder in the cases.....thinking 231 or red dot, bullseye. might be a better place to start. i am really thinking the magnum powders may be a little too slow. what do you guys think about that idea? and no i won't blame anyone if i blow mine up. but i will most likely whine and pout a bit.

well have a good one.
sean

[Rich Z]

Heck, I tend to go with the "faster powders for lighter projectiles or shorter barrels concept". What sort of powders are used in .22 and .17 rimfires? This might be the starting point you need.

[Red October]

Perhaps I was not clear enough in my earlier posting. My first Five-seveN didn't blow up, it broke.

Before I fired a shot, I miked the overall length of an SS192 round, so my rounds would be seated at the proper depth. The slugs I used were shorter than the SS192 slugs (I extracted one), so I know that it didn't extend too far into the case. The FN slug is surprisingly long (.810!) to only be 28 grains. I have 231, Red Dot, Bullseye, Unique, and a bunch of IMR powders, but I have used 2400 the most by far, and selected it in an attempt to have the case be nearly full on a normal load (for consistency of performance).

As nearly as I can tell, the sequence went something like this:
Shot number one:
There is a piece of metal that blocks the slide, which is rolled forward by the grey plastic take-down button.
Upon firing the slide moved backwards (likely too hard), striking that piece of metal. This impact on the metal broke the plastic mechanism which is a moulded part of that take-down button.
The shot "felt" fine. Not too light or too hard. On this shot, my chrony reported an error and didn't give a good reading.
Shot number two:
Slide retracts after firing. At this point, the metal block is not held in the correct position by the plastic. The slide strikes this block, and the block rolls backwards (as if the take-down was slid rearward). This applies leverage to the slide while moving backward. The front of the slide lifts, partially dislocating the 'T'-rail on the front of the grip frame. The slide comes to a stop with the metal block firmly jammed under it.

After some amount of work, I have managed to get the gun apart, assess the damage, and (mostly) reassemble it. The only part that is obviously permanently damaged is the grey plastic take-down operator.
I am planning to send it to Browning (who does repairs for FN pistols) and get an estimate for repair and test firing.

I have pistol #2 now, but getting #1 repaired would be nice.

On a different note: I hear that SS192 is now "outlawed" as being considered an "armor piercing" round, and that there is a new SS196 coming out in a heavier grain bullet. Any truth to this? It sounds ridiculous enough to be initiated by the media, and unfortunately, be true. I can't recall ever seeing an armor piercing hollow point ...

[Chippathingy]

Days ago I read a link to the ATF website stating they specifically dubbed all 5-7 ammo non-AP , except the steel core obviously.

[Rich Z]

Darn, wish I wasn't a wussy. 5.7x28 ammo is going on the auction boards for $35 to $40 per box of 50! I should sell the case I have and double my money. But hell, if it does get blocked for sale, then I am screwed with a couple of guns with only a few boxes of ammo and the SCARY proposition of wrecking the gun if I try reloading for it.

Rumors are saying that the NEW ammo coming into production will be 500fps SLOWER then the older stuff. :(

[rl56]

5.5 grs. of Accurate #9, CCI standard pistol primer, Sierra 40gr. Blitz is going 1,211 fps. The FN seems to operate fine. The case shoulder isn't moving ahead as far as the 192 round does and this load could stand to go up on the charge. 6grs. and 40gr. vmax are now loaded and I'll try them this weekend. Should be able to duplicate the 196 round @1,600 fps. Will post the results.

[rl56]

5.5 to 6.5 grs. of Accurate #9 should be the range for 40 gr. bullets trying to get to 1,600 fps.

[Rich Z]

Excellent! Thanks for sharing. I expect that when more people realize that the SS192 is no longer available, that there will be a real scramble to figure out the loading data to duplicate the performance of that round. Heck, I know I am going to be ordering reloading dies pretty shortly myself.....

[rl56]

Be sure to size the shoulder back to unfired or new case specs. This affects case capacity. It head spaces of the shoulder and extraction can be affected if not set back. This is just something this case has to deal with. For the time being do not use magnum or rifle primers.

[rl56]

The RCBS shell holder will not let the RCBS die size the case back to the factory spec. The #37 Hornady for .25acp will. Light dremel work on the sides where the case head slides in just needs to be opened a bit till the case slides in. 35 gr. bullets should go in the 6.5 to 7.5 charge range of Accurate #9. Save your brass guys. I don't see this cartridge going away. Houston SWAT loves the P90. 5 to 6 rounds will stay on target before climbing off, vrs. 3 or 4 with a M4 .223 AR.

[Rich Z]

I wonder why FN buckled on the velocity of this round? The SS192 is a hollow point, for crying out loud. How could BATF classify it as an armor piercing round, no matter WHAT the velocity?

[Red October]

I still think that it's likely a knee-jerk reaction to head off any potential media hype. Probably in hopes of preventing something similar to what happened with Black Talon ammo, Nyclad ammo, etc.

I used to think that the reporters were ignorant to the facts; lately, I think they count on the general public being ignorant to facts.

To quote one of my favorite movie lines: "A person is smart; people are stupid."

[AZ COLLECTOR]

awesome info.
thank you

nice to know i wasn't too far off with the h 110 or w 296.

may i ask how much of a flash it is producing relative to the factory stuff?

thanks again going to go look for some 35gr bullets now think some one will introduce a 30gr?

sean

[brass hammer]

i hit a gun-show last week-end,and the ammo vendors played totally dumb[the [1] from ca.anyway!]

[1] ol'boy, whom i enjoyed 'doing biz' with, stated that i was the[4th] person to ask about that cartridge!,,,,all in all, the concences is that the gun/ammo is east of the mississippi,,,,,,,?[in bulk???]

but the ol'boy [who was 'cool'] sold me another ballistic vest for $40[2nd-chance w/trauma plate] :cool:

[Rich Z]

Damn! Prices keep going UP on the SS192 stuff. Auction on Gunbroker is offering 2100 rounds at a Buy It Now price of $3,000!

I think there is sufficient incentive to figure out this reloading stuff and get it down pat. Wish those guys hadn't caved on the anti-gunner's frenzy about yet another "cop-killer" bullet.

[Red October]

As do I.
But it's like I stated earlier, this isn't the first time that a manufacturer has caved to media frenzy. Unfortunately, their choices are either cave in, or wind up being labeled as 'cop-killers.'
Whether it is true or not does not matter; it impacts their bottom line. And, after all, it's just a business to them.

Reloading is going to be the option, until the new SS196 becomes more available.

I guess the key is to start really low and work up to a decent load.
I don't want to break #2 as well.

[Rich Z]

I've got a backorder for the ss196, so as soon as it becomes available, I should be getting a case of it. I already prepaid for it ($699 per 2000) so I am curious to see if that is what the price will remain. Man, I have seen panic buying before, but this takes the cake. REALLY some major class gouging going on as well. Some people asking $85 a box of 50 and higher! That's $1.70 per round! I guess some people will likely start dumping their FiveseveNs when they realize that they don't want to spend $34 every time they emtpy one of those 20 round magazines....

[Red October]

I don't expect this to last indefinitely.

Once the SS196 hits the market, and is out there for six months or so, the furor will die down somewhat. That should be sufficient time for the initial rush for ammo to be satisfied. Also, by that time, more reloading data should be available, which I believe will curtail the ability to gouge so severely for a box of ammunition.
Price is a function of what the market will bear; the sooner that serious shooters can reload this cartridge reliably, the less likely that they will pay $1.70 per round.
I agree that some people will be tempted to (and probably will) dump their Five-seveN's. In my opinion, that is a mistake. There are just too many law enforcement agencies, etc. that are jumping on this weapon. It may take time, but I think that it will become more mainstream.
This trend has been coming on for a while.
I suspect this is more the beginning than the end.

[Rich Z]

Is there some sort of patent issue on the .224 BOZ? Seems to me there would be a lot of cartridges amenable to this sort of modification using widely available SS109 projectiles.

[Chippathingy]

Is there some sort of patent issue on the .224 BOZ?

Yes.
Civil Defence has been very aggressive toward wildcatters/diemakers, etc

http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.html

These guys sell 7.62x25mm rounds with 5.56 sabots (.223 Timbs):
http://www.qual-cart.com/

[Rich Z]

Heck, the concept of necking down an existing cartridge to accept a smaller diameter projectile has been used ever since metallic based cases for ammunition has existed. How can their "patent" of a commonly used public domain process hold up?

Actually the entire concept of patenting a cartridge seems to be rather self defeating anyway. It would be like Smith & Wesson patenting the .40S&W as a shortened 10mm. If S&W firearms were the only ones that could use this cartridge except under license, what are the chances that cartridge would still be around today? Or what about the .357Sig, which is basically .40S&W necked down to accept .357 projectiles?

And what the heck is a "worldwide" patent anyway? Is that even enforceable, much less recognized by all countries?

[Chippathingy]

Yeah, I know...it’s gonzo.

I'll bet it’s more for intimidation value than anything else.

On Frugal's about Feb./Mar of 2002 they had a ****load of threads on the .224 Boz and 5.7/30carb and dozens of other similar cartridges.
There was a fellow that said he has dies he made and a 1911 that fires a .45acp necked to .224. Velocities were very close to the Boz.
He used a .223-barrel and cut it to line the STD .45acp pipe.
He said he had been shooting it and 2 others like it for 30years or some **** but didn’t really know what he would use it for other than punching paper and the occasional varmint.

[Rich Z]

Heck, I'd like to see S&W come out with their .500 S&W necked down to .22 or .30 caliber in a revolver. Now that would be a fun toy to play with!

But anyway, back to the original topic. I'm encouraged to see people buying up all this 5.7x28 ammo at such premium prices. This is certain to get some people's attention and perhaps make a push to get more firearms out in this caliber and start second sourcing some production for the ammo. Maybe someone not suffering from as much wimplash as FN USA/Winchester will start producing the "good stuff".

[mickey223]

What I would like to see is something like the Ruger 10/22 in 5.7x28. Talk about a heck of a varmit rifle.

By the way, some places are still selling 5.7x28 ammo again to civilians. My local dealer got several cases in last week. and marked it up to ...... $17 dollars a box. Apparently it is still available, I picked up 3000 rounds.

[Rich Z]

Is that the SS196 or SS192 ammo you bought?

[mickey223]

ss192 in the white box.

[Rich Z]

ss192 in the white box.

How many can you get for me at that price? Can I contact him directly?

[Darkmind]

If it's open to others I would like to pick some up, I have cash in hand!

[mickey223]

I'll check and see if he has any left. He had sold 8 of the fivesevens last month, and I know a lot of people were looking for ammo. I just lucked out and walked in when the truck was there.

[Darkmind]

Please let me know, I would like to pick up about 800 rounds maybe even 1000!

If he has a good price on NIB 5.7 pistols then I really need to talk to him and pick one up.

[Darkmind]

mickey223,

Whats this guys number? If he will sell me a 5.7 pistol for 900 i'll pick up a 1000 rounds with it. As soon as I can get his number i'll call him.

[Rich Z]

Dibs! :nyah:

[Darkmind]

Dibs! :nyah:


Thats fine, I just want to call and talk to him. I have about 1300 burning a hole in my pocket for a 5.7 pistol and ammo.

[Rich Z]

I think you will like that gun. I'm waiting on some ss196 ammo now because I don't want to shoot up my SS192 until I know something is in the pipeline to me. I found a guy with a LEO tactical model with night sights, extra mags, etc., but when he quoted $2,500 for it, I gracefully declined.

I have the IOM models and wonder how the new USG models differ except for the obvious trigger guard reshaping.

I think the ammo shortage may be a temporary situation, though, as ammo manufacturers start perking up their ears at this "opportunity". People willing to pay $1.70 for this high speed ammo is certainly going to get some marketing heads thinking...... A couple of more guns shooting this stuff hitting the market and the antis can just go suck an egg.....

[Darkmind]

Well I did not receive that guys info in time and I was trying to decided if I should back out of the deal I had going and see if he could give me a better deal or stick with what I had going. I had to make a decision tonight so I stuck with what I had going. 1 NIB FN 5.7 pistol for 900 shipped and 300 rounds of ss192 for 180. I should have it in my hands by thirsday.

If that gentleman still has ammo going for that price PLEASE let me know and PLEASE put me in contact with him. I still have money burning and I could always use more ammo.

[mickey223]

Sorry been at work all day. He was out of the ammo the next day. He had gotten 12 of the FiveSevens in stock, 5 of the IOM and 7 of the USG. Everybody that bought one, came in and purchased 2-3 cases of ammo. If any more comes in, I'll buy it all up and sell it on Gunbroker for $85 ..... just joking, I'll post on the board.


I first got the IOM with 3 20 round mags and a bonus of 3 10 round mags for free. Then went back and got the USG model. Not much different other than the trigger guard, reversable magazine catch and the serrated grip all on the USG model.

I ordered a custom IWB holster from C. Rusty Sherrick for the IOM due to the unusual trigger guard, and hopefully will be getting some night sights soon through a friend on the city police force.

I'll post some pics when Everything comes in.

[Rich Z]

Hey, let me know about those night sights. I asked Arizona Gun Runners about them and they said they only work on the Tactical model. Will not work on the IOM nor the USG. I can't imagine why FN would have done something like that, however, but then again, I had a rifle from them that I didn't understand either, so nothing would surprise me.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

also interested in the night sites.

thank you.
sean

[7of7]

I heard from my local gunshop that Winchester is making amunition for FN, for export only.... So, since this is technically a rifle round that is being used in a pistol, I would suspect it would be a winchester rifle powder, quite possibly 748(?).

[Rich Z]

Hmm, I would think 748 would be a bit on the slow side for such a light projectile as is in the 5.7x28 round. I often used it quite when I reloaded .223. Used it in .308 as well.

My impression on shooting the FiveseveN is that is uses a rather fast powder to keep the muzzle flash down.

Anyone done anymore experimentation on reloading this round?

I still haven't gotten my case of SS196 ammo yet. Prices on SS192 keep on going up.... :(

[wildeye111]

Hello, I have been keeping up with the posts and would like to provide and receive feedback regarding the 5.7 reloading. In reply to 7of7, I don't think that FN would have used Winchester powder- I will touch more on this subject later. First off, I would like to say SORRY to Red October – I admire your resilience, To RL56- I think you’re the man and on target with your info, I hope you continue and provide feedback. I feel that I may have narrowed down the powder that was/is used by FN.

Before I get into this I would like to recap and provide what info I know first hand. I own the RCBS 5.7 dies (cartridge holder is needed) I have a few bullets under the 40gr. weight to test- I can provide more info on these if you request. I have also, like most of you collected the specs from the SS192, SS190 and SS196SR for testing. I have also placed an pre pre-order with Impactguns.com for the PS90 (I feel that we need to make sure that they know there is enough of us out there that want the PS90- and yeah, they are the only ones that I can hope will have my name on some list...I pray.) And yes, the round is a true .224 (side note- I am stupid enough that I will try and cut down .223 SS109 NATO Projectile Bullets - M855 "STEEL TIP PENITRATOR" to test)

Anyhow, I think FN used a powder mfg. closer to home, I asked to myself why would they buy from an overseas mfg, spend the time in shipping and then re-export the ammo? It does sound right, when there is even powder Mfg. in Belgium!! Most of us know when FN came out with the Five Seven and the P90(1989-95)- back then the P90 round was a 22gr. plastic core bullet and is NOT mfg. any longer. Winchester would have not been in the picture back then. So after researching and hopefully I will soon have this powder to test, I believe FN used a powder from a company called “Eurenco” a spherical powder from their Belgium subsidiary PB Clermont. It seems to have the same appearance/characteristics of the powder that is contained in the SS190 and SS192 ammo. I will keep you posted if/when I receive the powder. Also, incase anyone has not seen any pics or heard info about the FN PS90 here are the links and info:

FN USA annouced the PS90 and FS2000 to be released to the civilian market at the shot show in Las Vegas this past January. The release (I HOPE)should be OFFICIAL at the NRA show this April 14th-16th. This is when distributor orders will be taken and a firm delivery date provided. I heard this before!!! I will keep my fingers crossed.

Scroll down once you get into this site- first photo
Enjoy!!

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36753&postdays=0&postor

[Rich Z]

Just found this page that may give us all some leads:

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail_handgun.asp?CaliberID=57&LoadID=618

[krept]

I know it doesn't really pertain to this thread but I'm not sure if it was enough to warrant its own thread. Botach Tactical has 20rd factory original non-LE marked mags for $26. Just got the e-mail a little while ago. Don't know if it's a good price or not but I wanted to share with those that might have the pistol... of course, what good are the mags if the cartridges are insanely priced? ;)

http://store.botachtactical.com/fniom20ma.html

[Rich Z]

Actually that is a real good price. I paid something like $35 for mine. But I think I have enough of them for all practical reasons.

Now if you can come up with some decently priced 50 round mags for the P90, let me know..... :)

[wildeye111]

Here is what I found concering the powder from Belgium. PB Clermont imports the powder through Western Powders in the US. The powder brand name is RAMSHOT, info at RAMSHOT.COM. I talked with a rep at Western, asked about reload data for the 5.7-they will not publish the reload data as of yet- he hinted that it was fast burning with a low charge weight? to me this sounds like the Zip line. Only time will tell.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

this may be a good option for bullets

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=128497

they also make it in moly coated (for messy fingers)

sean

[wildeye111]

I saw these at Midway as well and thought the same. I received a broshure from Huntingtons along with the 5.7 dies and found that Speer has a 33gr. HP bullet for $10.98 in stock. Not sure on quality though?

[7of7]

I sent off a request to a powder manufacture, and here is the response I have received:


Unfortunately we do not have any specific tested data on this powder caliber combination.

(see notes 1.1 and 2.1 below).

However, I can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.

Caution: This is an extremely sensitive and unforgiving caliber. Its very sensitive to any change in bullet weight, design, COL etc.

Important Notes:

We strongly recommend to:

1) Take note of points 1 and 2 below.

2) Measure the velocity, compare with the data and get back with us, so that we can work together to optimize the load for our conditions.

Caliber: 5.7x28 FN.

Barrel length: 5" - FN Five -SeveN.

Barrel length: 10" - FN P90.

Powder: AA 9.

Bullet weight: 35grains. V-Max

Start load: 6.8 grains (5" - 1700 - 1800 ft/p/sec) (10" - 2400 - 2500ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 7.8 grains (1900 _ 2000 Ft/p/sec). (10" - 2400 - 2500ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight: 40 grains. V-Max

Start load: 6.5 grains (1600 - 1700 ft/p/sec) (10" - 2300 - 2400ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 7.5 grains (1800 - 1900 Ft/p/sec). (10" - 2300 - 2400ft/p/sec)



NOTE:

It’ important to note that:

Whenever Accurate Arms do not test, and have actual data, on a particular caliber or caliber/bullet combination, we may in some cases provide some guideline. This information will be based on various procedures and calculations, or from other very reliable sources.

1. SAFETY is our prime concern therefore:

1.1. The loading data is conservative, especially regarding the minimum or start load to ensure a safe baseline to work from.

1.2. The safety margin built into the start load might be more than the customary 10%.

2. We strongly recommend.

2.1. To always start at the recommended minimum "START" load.

2.2. If at all possible, measure the velocity.

2.3. Contact us again with the velocity data, so that we can verify, and correlate with our calculated/estimated data. The data should also be compared, with the typical velocity levels accepted in the industry, for that particular caliber-bullet weight combination.





Regards

Johan Loubser

Ballistician

Western/Accurate Powders

Tel: (931) 729 66 15

Part of Western Powders -- Miles City Montana

For all Sales, Marketing, Pricing Distribution and related issues, please call toll free 800-497-1007.

[wildeye111]

Thanks 7of7!!! You ROCK!!. I had talked with Sean from Western Powders-he provided little. I have only one way of verifiying velocity-a Chrono. What about you?

[7of7]

I will be out getting some Hornady 35grain V-Max bullets and some AA9 powder tomorrow, and then loading about 5, and head over to the range with my chrono and test them out and verify speed.
He didn't mention anything about primers, or COL so I will be using small rifle primers, as it is a small rifle cartridge. I will be doing some measuring to determine the seating depth of the factory ammo since the bullet is so long, and try to come up with an appropriate depth.....

[wildeye111]

Hey 7of7 this sounds good. I will keep my fingers crossed hoping all goes well. Hey shoot me an email at tavor4me@yahoo.com. I want to give you an update of the SS109 M855 ball 62gr STEEL TIP PENETRATOR bullets. Also, R. U. using the RCBS dies? if so, What do you think of them?
Thanks

[wildeye111]

Hey AZ Collector, have you heard any word from rl56? I hope his tests went OK. I hoped to get his feedback regarding duplicating the SS196 round.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

no word....... :rolleyes:

hopeing that it is due to elation overtaking his typing finger.

have some 30gr bullets on order should come in soon.

sean

[7of7]

Success!!!
Hornady V-Max 35 grain
Seating depth : .20
COL: 1.460
CCI 400 Small Rifle primer
Powder: AA9
Charge: 6.8 grains.
Average velocity 1680fps

Hornady V-Max 35 grain
Seating depth : .20
COL: 1.460
CCI 400 Small Rifle primer
Powder: AA9
Charge: 7.0 grains.
Average velocity 1730 fps

Noticeably more muzzle flash than factory. Factoy ammo velocity was 1950 fps.

[Rich Z]

Been seeing a couple of ads recently for 5.7x28 ammo with the SS195LF designator. "LF" is suppsed to stand for "lead free". Anyone heard of this stuff? Is it the older high velocity ammo or the newer slow mo stuff?

[Pelouze]

Did the shoulder of the fired case move forward at all 7 of 7?

[7of7]

The shoulder did move forward. It appears the case neck decreased in length by about .03". However, this appears to be normal when compared to a once fired casing. With this in mind I think it would be prudent to anneal the necks prior to sizing. This will make it softer and easier on the metal to restore to the correct dimensions
http://home.earthlink.net/~huffs/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fiveseven.jpg
From left to right:
Twice fired casing, Once fired casing, Factory cartridge, Twice fired and resized, and finally a Once fired and resized.

[7of7]

By the way, I am working on reducing muzzle flash, and maintaining factory load velocities. I will post my results as they come, however the loads with the AA9 do work. I will be loading some more of them to get some individual shot data. (I will post it too)

[AZ COLLECTOR]

7of7 you rock!
as soon as i get a little time off to play will try out your recipes .
thank you again
sean

[rnelson11]

I am new to this forum and do not ,as yet, reload but do plan to start. As far as the SS195LF, go to CMMG and look under SPECIALS. They are selling the SS195LF and they state that it is a replacement for the 192 and is exactly the same except for the primer which is lead free.

[7of7]

A little on the 'spencive' side,... at 49.95 a box.....You know they have to be gouging. I can still find stuff locally for 20.00 a box. Normally when I am not looking for it, but when I run across it, I usually buy it up...

[Rich Z]

When I first saw the SS195, the price was rather reasoable, but I guess the gougers bought it all up and are now reselling it.

As for CMMG, I'm not that fond of them and seriously doubt I would ever find reason to buy something from them again.

[Rich Z]

Well this question just popped into my mind today. Wondering about that new SS196 down-powered 5.7x28 ammo.

Anyone tried this stuff yet? I'm curious to know if it impacts at same point of aim as the SS192 stuff does. I've got a backordered case of the SS196 and I am considering just cancelling the order and put that money into more of the SS192 while it is still available. Expecially if they don't imprint the same place on a target at typical handgun ranges.

[7of7]

Arizona Gun runners will be getting some ammo in for this pretty soon. the 196 and 195. Both are the same price, 699 a case of 2000.
Arizona Gunrunners (http://www.arizonagunrunners.net/Products/FNMfng/Five-seveN/five-seven.html)

[Rich Z]

I've got a case of them on backorder for quite a while now. Since I originally placed the order for SS192, I wonder what they will send me when it comes in? I've heard that the SS195 has the same velocity as the SS192, but none of the sources are reliable. Seems kind of odd that FN would do something like that.

BTW, I learned something new today. The projectiles in the AP and tracer 5.7x28 ammo are steel clad with a copper wash, not a copper jacket. I have to confess that I haven't checked the SS192 ammo I have yet to see what that jacket is made of, as I only assumed it was copper. That just surprised me for some reason.

[7of7]

I got to the range and fired the AA7 V-Max rounds. They all worked just fine, still had the large muzzle flash.
I was asked to do the complete workup to max loads with this powder so a determination can be done for the AA5 which is much faster burning powder.
I will keep you all posted

[Rich Z]

OK, maybe I'm just suspicious and maybe I am paranoid, but I got in two different batches of what are supposed to be actual 5.7x28 AP projectiles.

Here's a couple of pics of the first batch:

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/a_bullet_01.jpg
http://www.armslocker.com/pics/a_bullet_02.jpg

Now here's some pics of the second batch:

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/b_bullet_01.jpg
http://www.armslocker.com/pics/b_bullet_02.jpg

Notice a couple of differences. In the second batch, MOST of the projectiles are mostly empty except for the steel insert at the tip. The rest of the jacket has NOTHING at all in it. The one on the right is obviously impacted with tumbling media and matter of fact, those loose bits fell out of the one on the left. Second, you can actually see traces of where there was probably a painted tip on those projectiles. Thirdly, the projectiles have a cannelure, which I have never seen on 5.7x28 projectiles.

My guess is that this second batch are actually 5.56 SS109 projectiles that somehow had the lead removed from them. I do admire the work that someone did to do something like this, but I really don't think it would be wise for me to load these up. Having that open cavity in the projectile certainly can't be a good thing. At the very least, I would guess these things would keyhole like crazy if they even made it out of the barrel without that jacket rupturing from filling up with high pressure propellant gas.

But what do you all think? Did I just get royally ripped with this second batch?

[7of7]

I think you are 100% correct on the SS109 projectiles. All one has to do is heat them up and melt the lead inside and it runs right out. It appears that there is some lead residue on the one on the left.
To my knowledge,... Aluminum alloy is used instead of lead in these bullets,... all of them except for the obvious V-Max's....
I would be giving whomever I bought them from a call about them..... and I wouldn't even consider loading them up.

[Rich Z]

Looks like I am going to have a fight on my hands trying to get my money back for these "things". Why do so many people in this business always point the blame at the "other guy"? This guy is saying it is the fault of the person HE got them from. I'll tell you honestly, I'm about ready to stop buying stuff on the net. Too many scams going on or people just trying to dump junk with a "grab the money and run" type of attitude.

Anyway, if I do get stuck with this crap, anyone have any suggestions on what I could use to fill in that hollow jacket base? Something lightweight yet won't flash evaporate from the heat of the propellant.

Those projectiles, as is, weigh roughly 30 grains. So if I could fill those bases with something weighing no more then 10 grains I might still be able to do something with them. Sure wish I had a cheaper gun to test them with in 5.7x28. I've heard that FN has stopped sales of the FiveseveN to the public, so I sure don't want to blow up one of my guns experimenting.

How the heck someone found the time to extract the lead from all of those projectiles just amazes me. And the possibility that I may have to find some way (and time) to pack those bases with something so I can use them just irritates the hell out of me. :hot:

[AZ COLLECTOR]

in all honesty i think you would be better off fighting about it and getting a refund ow throwing them away.

you will not get any reasonable accuracy out of them due to the inconcistancy of the weight and balance.

further more how to tell that the heating of the jacket to get the lead out did not change the properties of the jacket...like annealing.

sean

[Pelouze]

[QUOTE=Rich Z]Looks like I am going to have a fight on my hands trying to get my money back for these "things". Why do so many people in this business always point the blame at the "other guy"? This guy is saying it is the fault of the person HE got them from. I'll tell you honestly, I'm about ready to stop buying stuff on the net. Too many scams going on or people just trying to dump junk with a "grab the money and run" type of attitude.

Anyway, if I do get stuck with this crap, anyone have any suggestions on what I could use to fill in that hollow jacket base? Something lightweight yet won't flash evaporate from the heat of the propellant.

Those projectiles, as is, weigh roughly 30 grains. So if I could fill those bases with something weighing no more then 10 grains I might still be able to do something with them. Sure wish I had a cheaper gun to test them with in 5.7x28. I've heard that FN has stopped sales of the FiveseveN to the public, so I sure don't want to blow up one of my guns experimenting.

How the heck someone found the time to extract the lead from all of those projectiles just amazes me. And the possibility that I may have to find some way (and time) to pack those bases with something so I can use them just irritates the hell out of me.
Cut your losses and pitch them

[7of7]

Cut your losses and pitch them
Have to agree with this.

[Rich Z]

Perhaps easy for you to say that, but I paid $1K for these things. I am not inclined to just let it go without putting a little reaming to that guy's butt.

[7of7]

Perhaps easy for you to say that, but I paid $1K for these things. I am not inclined to just let it go without putting a little reaming to that guy's butt.

Cough,... Cough,... Yes it was easier for me to say that..... I had no idea how much you spent on them. :erm:

Where did you get them, ebay? If so there is action you can take. If you used a credit card, you can go through them to get your money back, because what you received was not what you ordered. Check the advertisement carefully. Better yet, if you have a link to the site,.....

BTW,.. I'd be inclined to do ALOT of reaming,..... with a very big reamer!!!!

[Rich Z]

The guy was advertising on GunBroker. He wanted $2 a pop on them. I emailed him and asked him if he would take $1 a pop if I took 1,000 of them.

I paid for them with a postal money order. Actually two money orders.

Here's the link to the auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30475296

The guy has over 1,000 positive feedbacks, as far as I can tell, all from selling ammunition, and mostly specialty stuff like AP and incendiary. I believe that is pretty strong evidence that he DOES know ammunition and he knew perfectly well what these things are.

He is saying that the question marks in the title indicated he didn't know what they were. Yeah, that's all fine and dandy, but he neglected to indicate the hollow projectile or show such in the photo. If I had seen that, I would not have bought the things, because I would have known what was going on.

In the letter I enclosed along with the postal money orders, I stated this:
As per our email correspondence, I am enclosing a postal money order for $1,009.00 which reflects payment for 1,000 5.7x28 SS190 (AP steel core) projectiles.

THAT is what I expected to be paying for, not bastardized .223 SS109 projectiles.

Heck, I bought 1,000 of them, and several other people bought some from that auction as well. How in the world someone would find the time and have the patience to remove the lead from that many .223 projectiles boggles my mind. I can't imagine HOW someone did so many of them without going insane from the tedium, so there must be a quick way to do it that I just haven't thought of. A long while back I was playing with trying to load .44 jackets with pure metallic sodium. I melted out the lead using a torch, but it was a real pain in the butt to do. Then I would put the sodium in the jackets and heat them to melt the chips into the copper jacket. Got pretty exciting when one of them ignited from the heat, though!

Anyway, if there is a way to salvage them and actually use them, I would just swallow my pride at getting snookered and keep them.

Is there such a thing as an aluminum liquid paste that I could use to fill those things in with? Maybe an epoxy of some sort?

Or hell, maybe I'll just try to sell them for whatever I can get. Tell it like it is, though, photos and all, and maybe someone else can figure out something to do with them. Truth of the matter is that I will probably put them in an ammo can and forget about them. Then my wife will have to get rid of them after I die and not have a clue what the heck they are.

If you guys ever hear about an estate sale after my death, I STRONGLY advise you to drop everything and attend. ;)

[Pelouze]

I would not load any of those and shoot them out of any gun. Filling them with anything is just asking for trouble. Mabe you can get some of your money back selling them for scrap. I think I would cash in some sky miles and go pay that guy that sold them to you a personal visit!!

[mickey223]

The only thing I know of that might work is tungsten powder. I've seen it used to make frangible bullets, but not sure if that is the way you want to go.

Here is some info

http://www.corbins.com/

[7of7]

here is a pic of the tails of some hollow point ammo. Note how they are swaged.

http://home.earthlink.net/~huffs/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/57tail2.jpg

[AZ COLLECTOR]

for the sake of a little lol
why not fill them with Fe03 (scale type rust) and aluminum .
powder both very finely and mix .
end result thermite.

not sure if it will ignite on impact though....but regular jacketed bullets often spark.

you got hosed and i am sorry it happened.
most likely gunbroker will give you the same line of **** that they gave me.
"the seller has great feedback and gives us lots of money you don't so screw off"
ok so that wasn't the exact quote but close.

i would still fight like heck and perhaps consider MAIL FRAUD charges as they are not what you paid for and the postal system was utilized.

perhaps a scary letter from an attourny would help lol
sean

[Rich Z]

Yeah, I haven't made any moves on this yet, but since I paid with Postal Money orders, mail fraud is defintitely in the cards. Just so happens I have an attorney friend (he's a gun nut like me too) up in Ohio where this guy lives at, so the application of some legal heat may be in the works as well.

It's odd that he has stopped putting ANY auctions on Gunbroker, too.

I've been in contact with one of the people who actually won one of those auctions for these projectiles, and as of yesterday he hadn't even received his at all. Not sure what is going on.

Anyway, the guy's name is James Modon at 76205 Duncanwood Road, Cadiz, Ohio 43907, if anyone ever has reason to do business with this guy. His handle on GunBroker is boggman. Just a FYI in case you need it.

[7of7]

I fired the full range loads with the AA7, sent the data to Johan, and this is the response I received:

Thanks for the feedback and co-operation.
You’re latest data shows that AA 7 is closer to the factory powder than AA5.
The 6.9grains load is about were you should settle for good all round performance.
You can experiment with AA5 if you want, but I would be reluctant.
Since this is such a sensitive caliber the faster powder will even be less forgiving.
You will have to extremely careful, because things will happen much faster.
I suggest between 5.0 and 6.2grains of AA 5.

The load information:

Hornady V-Max 35 grain
6.9 grains AA7
CCI 400 Primer (small rifle)
COL: 1.46 inches
Case trimmed to 1.127
1884 FPS

[Pelouze]

Does the shoulder move much with this load?

[7of7]

The shoulders move even with the factory loads. With this load it moves a little more than factory. The overall case length does grow so it will need to be trimmed. I have taken apart a couple of my factory loads and checked case length, and got a range so I just used the middle figure for trimming. Seems to work just fine.
In testing, I went all the way up to 7.3 grains. With that load, the shoulder moved considerably! They did resize just fine. Wouldn't recommend that load to anyone, except to not do it.
I will be working up the AA5, only to to the point of about 1850 fps.
I did replace a factory bullet with a 35 grain V-Max, it chrono'd at 1792fps

[Fxds]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30475296
HAHAHA well then.... small world. I picked up 2 bags myself. In fact i just sent off the MO for 165 bucks last thursday. We shall see
97 Fxds

[Rich Z]

Let me know what you think of them. If you need more, I have a BUNCH of them. :)

I paid $1 each for them.......

[Fxds]

I fired the full range loads with the AA7, sent the data to Johan, and this is the response I received:

Thanks for the feedback and co-operation.
You’re latest data shows that AA 7 is closer to the factory powder than AA5.
The 6.9grains load is about were you should settle for good all round performance.
You can experiment with AA5 if you want, but I would be reluctant.
Since this is such a sensitive caliber the faster powder will even be less forgiving.
You will have to extremely careful, because things will happen much faster.
I suggest between 5.0 and 6.2grains of AA 5.

The load information:

Hornady V-Max 35 grain
6.9 grains AA7
CCI 400 Primer (small rifle)
COL: 1.46 inches
Case trimmed to 1.127
1884 FPS
-------------

Okies for all of us "special Ed's" out here who dont load but would like to start since this is a pain of a round to find... I need a full itemized list of all the tools necc to reload the 5.7. I mean the loader trimmer, case holder, etc etc. I see diff names of dies and such but when I go to huntingingtons .. they dont list the exac name of 5.7. As I said I dont reload yet but have a friend who will help me with a shopping list and teaching lessons. He just asked me to pick your brain on all the needed hardware you use. I would like to use a reloader that could do .45 also.. so I guess a multi cal loader would work. Thanks
Fxds

[7of7]

I have the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Press Master Kit,(Midway #646599) and some other additional equipment I have purchased a little at a time. There is a nice accessory kit that RCBS has (Midway #217150) wich would be nice, however you can probably find a set of digital calipers at a pawn shop alot cheaper.
Any one of the kits that include everything you need to get going less dies will work with this round,...
Midway USA (http://www.midwayusa.com) sells the dies and shell holder for the 5.7 X 28 cartridge, but they are on backorder. (midway # 898486 and # 816782)
I would highly recommend a case trimmer for this cartridge. I have the RCBS Trim Pro, and I had to make my own plate for this case. This is easy to use, and trims very accurately.
Unfortunately, no one is making progressive reloader shell plates for this case,...yet.
There really isn't anything special other than the dies, shell holder, and trim plate. Just the basic beginner equipment will do well for you.

[Fxds]

Ahhh part numbers.. wonderful! Thanks a bunch. Now to start shopping ). BTW I found a guy selling once shot brass on EBAY under "5.7" sporting goods. Should be on the first or second page of golf clubs. Prices where around $22 per 100 inc shipping, buy more and price went down but shipping went up. An another 3 people are selling 35grain vmax bullets. I bought some brass.. might as well get some bullets. Since I have no idea if the prices are fair I might a well just buy a few at a time. Just another question... how many times can the brass be reloaded before its trash. I assume that by trimming it its getting thinner and the metal is getting hard. Will annealing be required eventually? Thanks
Fxds

[7of7]

Check this for brass
100 pieces (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31824&item=7154943066&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
500 pieces (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31824&item=7154943078&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
1000 pieces (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31824&item=7154943074&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

[Fxds]

Yup... thats the guy.. I bought 2 bags of 100 from him. With shipping to me since Alaska is a foriegn country, total price was around $44.

[7of7]

Yup... thats the guy.. I bought 2 bags of 100 from him. With shipping to me since Alaska is a foriegn country, total price was around $44.
Next time you have someone ship you something, request that they use USPS Flat rate service. They have to use the free usps boxes, and then give them about 7.10 for the shipping,.... for any weight as long as it fits in the box, and it is less than 70 lbs.
He shipped me some extras too.... nice surprise,....

[Fxds]

Hey RichZ. All mine came in and yup I was hosed. They are your second batch pictures except mine are cleaner and well tumbled. I took a nail and poked in the inside and crumbled out the tumbling media and hit the steel tip. But its hollow and all of them have the cannalure. Well.. I guess I can make some earrings out of them and sell them at gunshows.

[Rich Z]

I filed a complaint against that guy with the US Postal service for fraud. Also filed a complaint with the BBB in his area for his business he runs.

Did you file a complaint with GunBroker and leave negative feedback for the guy? I've noticed he is back on there selling what are supposed to be special experimental AP .223 rounds. Probably just regular SS109s that are moly coated, in my opinion.

[AZ COLLECTOR]

hey just a heads up gun broker will not come to the buyers rescue......
.... they follow the $$$$. and flat out won't respond if they know they are wrong. used to use them will not use them for anything anymore.
sean

[mickey223]

If he sold the ammo as a business, you could also file a complaint with the attorney general's office. http://www.ag.state.oh.us/index.asp

Realize the BBB is made up by the business owners, and in the past have found them to be completely useless.

Also, small claims court is an option as well. He did not specify in the auction that you have to use his locality for court. You could file a claim against him, then it would be up to him to appear in court or file a change of venue. Either way, it would cost him considerable legal fees to change to his hometown.

I did that with a computer I bought off an online auction and the guy never showed up. I won the case and judgement was for the complete cost of the system and legal fees to file the case. I then sent him a certified letter showing him the judgement and giving him 30 days to respond before I contacted his sheriffs department. I received a check in 5 days after the letter was delivered.

[7of7]

Mickey,
Great advice for all of us who buy things online. Hopefully, that will work for Rich.

[Fxds]

Except this is where I think we are screwed. Read the name of the auction an then read his deceptive description.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=30475296
Now that I know better, I notice that he never mentions the hollowed out bullet with no lead to get to the 34grain weight. I dont have a scale yet so I cant weigh them to see if his weight matches his description. His whole defense is ignorance. With all his ? marks in his auction. i am posting a related comment in Darkwolfs Tung post.
Fxds
Look what I found after scrolling through 18pages of A+ crap.. to bad it cant be seen due to age.
mp5sdnk A+(1) 08/15/2003 06:14 AM 9404423 Seller
F: BEWARE!!! BEWARE!!! AMMO WAS SS109 REMARKED TO AP BLACK TIP!! REFUND WAS NEVER SENT!!! THIS MAN LIES!!! BEWARE!!!!!!!!

[Rich Z]

When did you actually get your projectiles? I sent him the following email dated April 27th, so if yours were shipped after that date, he DEFINITELY knew they were bogus. His continuing to ship them out is plainly evidence of fraud.

----- Original Message -----
From: serpenco
To: James Modon
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 30475296


James,

I just received the package today and inspected the contents.

I checked these supposedly 5.7x28 pr AP projectiles and I don't believe that is what they really are. I believe they are just 5.56 SS109 projectiles with the lead melted out of the base. For one thing, I did some checking around and REAL 5.7x28 projectiles do not have a cannelure, and these projectiles you sent match up PERFECTLY with some SS109 projectiles that I have here. The base of the projectile is nothing but a HUGE hole, leaving just the steel insert in place. Matter of fact, in some of them I can see corn cob media from being tumbled, evidently to remove the green paint (in my opinion) on the tip and likely evidence of the jacket being heated.

I took some closeup photos and posted them up on my ArmsLocker forum. http://www.armslocker.com/forums/showthread.php?p=137177#post137177. Post #123 if you care to look them over.

Although I can admire the amount of work someone must have done to do something like this, my fear is that these things will be so imbalanced that they will keyhole like crazy if I were to load them up and actually shoot them. In fact, they may even be dangerous to the shooter (me!) in that the nearly hollow projectile may simply burst from the pressure when the propellant gases enter it, causing who knows what to happen to that gun. Certainly there won't be much of a chance at all that the projectile will hit anything I am aiming at. And with the prices of FN FiveseveNs going through the roof after FN shutting down sales to the public, this will just be an unacceptable risk to take with possible damage being caused to the gun. Not to mention some liability on your part for selling such things.

But in any event, I paid for REAL 5.7x28 AP projectiles, not these homebrew modified SS109 projectiles. I am requesting a return of this merchandise that is not what I had ordered and expected to have received, for a full refund of the money I paid for them.

I hope we can accomplish this without any rancor or bad blood developing.

Thanks.


I also contacted GunBroker about this guy and mentioned the details of what I had gotten. Their response was not very satisfactory.


Closed Tuesday, April 26, 2005 Issue #37035
Subject: Fraud

Item Number: 30475296



4/26/2005 3:46:18 PM
Rich Z
I would like to be able to contact the buyers of this item being sold to them concerning the accuracy of what this seller is actually selling. I have received some myself (I bought a LARGE lot of them) and I have my doubts about what they really are. As such I would like to contact those buyers to see if they received the same thing before I take any further steps in this matter.

FYI, my opinion is that these supposedly 5.7x28 projectiles are actually homebrew modified 5.56 SS109 projectiles that will not only NOT work properly when loaded, but may actually be dangerous to the shooter and quite possibly damage the gun they are fired in. At the very least I would like to let those people know about such a situation.

Anyway the buyers are as follows:

Seller: boggman

Buyer: mopar528
Buyer: 97Fxds
Buyer: spartafg
Buyer: Carcano2

Thanks.




5/5/2005 10:12:12 AM
GBSupport1012
Thank you for your feedback.



5/6/2005 5:34:08 PM
Rich Z
What the heck kind of answer is that?



5/6/2005 6:48:47 PM
GBSupport1012
It means Thank you for your comments. We will address the issue, however our privacy policy strictly limits what we tell you that we told them. See?
Thanks again!

[Fxds]

The box was postmarked on May19, '05 from Cadiz, OH. I was really late sending payment and about 3 days late on reading your post. Have you tried to contact the other buyers? I am deciding on what to pursue , if you dont mind I'll just follow your path.
fxds

[mickey223]

Rich Z: Unfortunately the email doesn't matter. He can easily say he didn't get it. If you are looking at legal action, then you need to send him a certified letter with signature. In the letter state who you are, what you purchased and for how much. state what you expected according to his sales ad on the auction and what you received. State what you expect. Give him a time frame to reply, usually thirty days from receipt of letter. Inform him that you would like to settle this without legal action, but if unable to, then you will pursue it.

His statement in the auction:
"I am not really sure where these came from. They are copper jacketed steel core bullets. I was told that they were hand pulled from FN 5.7x28 rounds." Shows that he was clearly selling these as 5.7x28 rounds. No where does he state that they could be something different and therefore according to Ohio consumer law he made a misleading statement. Further, since you are unable to use the bullets, you are unable to receive a benefit from the purchase. Both of these fall under the unconscionable sales practice and warrents a complaint to the attorney general's office.
For review of consumer law, check out http://www.ag.state.oh.us/online_publications/consumer_protection/ohioconsumerlawsWEB.pdf


Also, you might want to contact the other sellers (fxdfs?) and see if they would be interested in joining you and add there name and contact information to the letter, as well as the complaint to the attorney general's office. It is easy to say, that there was just a misunderstanding between you and the seller, but when more people are on board, it better proves that he was actively misleading the buyer.

[Fxds]

Sounds like we have a legal eagle aboard =D! Thanks M223, I'm on board Rich.
Fxds

[Rich Z]

OK, I contacted one other guy on that list who bought projectiles from Mr. Modon to see if he wants to join in with this. I'll get a letter typed up and sent off via registered mail to start rolling this ball along. I have an attorney in Ohio who is also a gun nut like me, so I am sure he will be willing to help out if needed. Matter of fact, I talked him into buying a FiveseveN recently..... I'll have to ask him what he thinks a box of 5.7x28 TRACER ammo is worth these days. ;)

[Rich Z]

A day or so ago, I sent the following email to James Modon:

Last warning. If you do not refund the money I paid for these worthless projectiles, all efforts expended in legal proceedings will be asked as recoverable damages when I take this to small claims court. I also have an attorney who is a friend of mine located in Ohio that will assist me in collecting on the judgement when filed.

You have been made aware of the bogus nature of the merchandise you are selling and yet you still continue to send that junk out to unsuspecting buyers. That is CLEARLY fraud and will be bringing you to the attention of your state's attorneys office shortly.

Go ahead, ignore this email too. I am showing good faith efforts to get this resolved before having to resort to the court system. This is going to get rather expensive for you.


To which I received the following reply:

I will print a copy of your email and get it to James when I see him next week. He has been out of town for about a week visiting a friend who is in the hospital.
By the way he only ran that auction one time. Not repeated as you seem to be under the impression of. He has had 4 requests for more of the bullets, but the guy who owned them doesn't have anymore. Isn't it against federal law to load steel core bullets into handgun rounds as you say you are going to do ? Thanks.


Interesting dodge, eh?

Anyway, I replied with the following:

Yes, please pass this on to him. I do have an attorney in Ohio, by the way, that will assist me if needed.

As for the legality issue, I suspect Mr. Modon has already looked into this before offering them for sale to the public. In short AP ammo for handguns is only illegal if imported into the country, or sold as loaded ammo by a FFL dealer. The loading of projectiles by a private person for use in their own firearms is not illegal.

But that is rather irrelevant concerning this issue we face here with misrepresented merchandise, isn't it? And look on the bright side, if he simply refunds my money for this unacceptable merchandise, then he can simply sell them to someone else who may find it acceptable and not willing to undergo legal proceedings to get this resolved. Sounds like a no-brainer decision to me.

BTW, once I reach the point to where I have to pay for the help of my attorney to resolve this, those fees will be added to the total amount needed to satisfy my claim in court. And as I mentioned, I do have an attorney in Ohio, so jurisdiction will remain local within Ohio.

Thank you.

[Fxds]

Well I thought I might try a softer approach and said this.....

Hello.. I hate to do this but I feel I must. I need to ask for a refund or even an exchange for something else. These are not only no what they are claimed to be but they cannot be reloaded in any form due to the fact that the lead has been removed as look to be SS109 rounds. It would be insane to reload these and try to shoot them. I hope that you have been mislead here and not trying to scam these off. Please respond to this email so we can work someting out. Thank you
Larry

the response on 5-26-05 was...

Just let me know how much you paid, and what the shipping address is for the refund. The guy we sold them for, hasn't answered his phone in 2 weeks. And I have tried at all times of the day and night. Thanks, James

I am still waiting.. I will keep you in informed Rich


Fxds

[Rich Z]

Hmm, curious to see if you get anywhere. My response from James when I sent the original email was this:


----- Original Message -----
From: James Modon
To: serpenco
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 30475296


? 5.7x28 ap steel core bullets ? I am not really sure where these came from. They are copper jacketed steel core bullets.

We typed up the add to let all know that we did NOT know where they came from. We even included a close up scan of the bullet so there was no question as to what they looked like. In addition you bought them for 1/2 of the owners asking price. We forwarded your email to Nick Nelson who owned them and asked what he would like to do. His answer is that he sold them as is and that he will not reimberse the .97 cents each that he paid for them or the $1.00 each that you paid.

[John in AR]

Rich - I don't know what you're paying for 5.7 ammo (and I'm not reading 16 pages of posts about reloading a caliber I don't shoot :cool: ), but fwiw, I received a notice from Natchez today that they have FN SS196SR "on sale" for $29.99/50.

Don't know if it's a better-than-average price or not; just passing it along.


http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FN10700014

[Rich Z]

Thanks. The SS196 is the lower powered stuff. The "good" stuff is the SS192 and SS195.

That reminds me, I've had a case of ammo (prepaid and all) on order from AZGunrunners for ages now. Guess I need to send them another nag-o-gram.

Thanks for keeping me in mind, though.

[7of7]

Thanks. The SS196 is the lower powered stuff. The "good" stuff is the SS192 and SS195.

That reminds me, I've had a case of ammo (prepaid and all) on order from AZGunrunners for ages now. Guess I need to send them another nag-o-gram.

Thanks for keeping me in mind, though.

I have had a case ordered since January, this is the response I received:

These items are on backorder till the end of June or mid July.
We will hold this order until we are able to ship unless we receive different instructions from you. We are at the mercy of FN who has not kept there scheduled delivery dates so far???????
Please do not contact re status of this ammo. We will ship when in stock.


Best regards,

Gary Lovetro
Arizona Gun Runners

[Rich Z]

Any results from this?

Well I thought I might try a softer approach and said this.....

Hello.. I hate to do this but I feel I must. I need to ask for a refund or even an exchange for something else. These are not only no what they are claimed to be but they cannot be reloaded in any form due to the fact that the lead has been removed as look to be SS109 rounds. It would be insane to reload these and try to shoot them. I hope that you have been mislead here and not trying to scam these off. Please respond to this email so we can work someting out. Thank you
Larry

the response on 5-26-05 was...

Just let me know how much you paid, and what the shipping address is for the refund. The guy we sold them for, hasn't answered his phone in 2 weeks. And I have tried at all times of the day and night. Thanks, James

I am still waiting.. I will keep you in informed Rich


Fxds

[7of7]

Any updates on this situation???

[Rich Z]

Actually I got a form to fill out from the district attorney in West Virginia. I can't figure out why they would be involved, since I am pretty sure this guy is located in Ohio. Been meaning to fill it out anyway to see what comes of it. Perhaps they will just refer it to the proper authorities.

But hurricane Dennis took center stage last weekend and I just haven't found the time to pursue it.

How about it Fxds? Did you get anywhere with this guy?

[Fxds]

Well its been a busy time for me and no.. he doesnt respond to any emails now and has dropped me like a hot rock. I am tired of the nice approach here tho.
Fxds

[Rich Z]

Is he still selling on GunBroker? Might need to make his auctions useless to him. :dgrin:

[brass hammer]

i will 'chip'-in,,,as a PERSON! can not even track a SCENT of the "5.7" cartridge/firearm capable of LAUNCHING-IT!!!

in the gun-shops/stores down here!!![gunshows=JOKE!]
HELL! i got a guy wantin' to sell me an 8" barreled S/W 500,,[although,the 4"
is rather intriging] :dgrin:

[Rich Z]

I spoke to my attorney in Ohio today and he said he is willing to help any of us who have been "hot pokered" by James Modon with those bogus 5.7x28 projectiles. I'm going to be gathering up all of the information I have at hand and forwarding it all to him. Anyone interested in participating is encouraged to contact me.

[Rich Z]

Finally got my case order of 5.7x28 ammo from Arizona Gun Runners yesterday. When the box was delivered, I didn't have a clue what the heck it was. It has been MONTHS since I ordered that stuff and I basically forgot about it.

On one hand I was disappointed that it was 2,000 rounds of the SS196 ammo (the underpowered stuff), but on the other hand, I got it for ONLY $699 (shipping included)! :)

So I can play with this ammo and keep the GOOD stuff stashed away.

[jason21401]

This for Sean, Stop behaving like a jerk. I agree with Andy.You can get the 9mm,40, or a 45 for that matter, to penetrate vests with velocities close to that of the 5.7. Have you ever hear of Magsafe Agent lo