Knife fighting

[Aslan]

Since the subject has been breached, let's jump in....

Any one here do Arnis, Escrima, kali, or similar arts?

:devil:

[RIKA]

Lets have a good discussion. I want to know all about this.

RIKA :)

[Magnum88C]

I just watch ninja movies and copy their moves. :rolleyes:

[Aslan]

We won't talk about anything fancy, and I'm hoping that an Arnis or Escrima practitioner pipes in - those guys are awesome!

Let me think about what can be described.

All the usual caveats apply - knives are inherently dangerous, practicing with one can get you or someone else hurt or killed, this is merely for discussion, yada yada yada

don't do anything stupid.

:devil:

[Aslan]

Some terms that we will use in our discussions:

Earth (blade) - if you were holding your hand such that your thumb is on top, and grabbed a knife so that the point of the blade is pointing towards the earth (ground). Usually with the cutting edge away from your body. The blade is closer to your little finger.

Sky (blade) - just the opposite. the blade is closest to your thumb and the blade is pointing towards the sky. Again, the cutting edge is facing away from your body.


(started to list a bunch of other stuff, but it started to get complicated...lets just leave it at these two terms)

:devil:

[Aslan]

I know I'm going to ramble on in parts, so bear with me...

In fist fighting, and in shooting, we've been taught to go for center mass. Always go for the big target to minimize sighting errors.

When knife fighting this is not necessarily true.

Never ignore targets of opportunity. Why settle for blocking a strike when you can render the attacking limb useless?

Use the empty hands and your legs to create openings.

Here's an example:

(Earth blade)

Attacker goes to stike with a right.

You do a block with your left at the wrist (not a grab, a block just behind the wrist)

As you block, your right (with the knife) slices through the bicep. Don't stop the motion.

After passing through the bicep, reverse your movement direction, bringing the blade point first into his throat. ( you are between the throat and the spine)


Variation:

Instead of slicing through the bicep, bring the blade straight through the rotator cuff, top of the shoulder.

You can now either do the stab with the knife to the throat, or collapse your knife arm and do an elbow strike to the head or the jaw line.

Variation two:

punch the knife fist into the solar plexus. As you make contact, bring your arm up and past his neck, blade into flesh the whole time.

Variation three:

Same as two, except bring knife straight up sternum into chin. Reverse direction and plunge knife at the top of the ribcage by the adams apple.

Hows that for a single technique with a few variations?

Get a training knife or a piece of frim rubber or foam to practice with.

More to follow.

:devil:

[Magnum88C]

How about the tried and true followup of driving the knife down into the collarbone area and using the knife as a lever to put the guy on the ground. Taking at least a lung, major nerve centers and atreries with it?

[Wylycoyte]

Figured I'd check in. I've got a few years on and off with FMA and a little exposure to silat and kun tao as well.

I've really grown to favor a point-oriented system over the past year or so with short knives. For the 7"+ blades, and in particular the 9"+, the slashing/chopping methods work very well, IMO. With a big blade, disarming becomes quite the literal term!

For a short knife, whether in heaven (sak sak) or earth (pakal or pikal), I really like keeping the edge towards me. Any attempt to block the stab immediately is countered with a strike to the face or neck with the other hand, and the knife is forcefully ripped backwards, hopefully filleting the blocking arm. Then the stabbing commences again...

[Aslan]

I was going to avoid the proper terms (sak sak and pakal) for two reasons: Confuse people and I can't spell worth a darn...

I thought about blade in towards the body, but I've seen people hurt themselves when just starting out....


I think this thread will get interesting!

:devil:

[gripper]

I never studied Filipino ?Indonesian styles,but much oif what you describe here is simililar o my own instruction/experience....Aslan;in the Sky position,atre you using your thumb to index the back of the blade&direct the point as part of the motion?
PS-I lke the whole limb destruction thing;its usually been among my favored discussuion enders. :dgrin:

[Wylycoyte]

I wouldn't index the blade simply because it sacrifices grip strength. I used to play more fast and loose with various grips, but having had the blade knocked out of my hand more than once while doing that has made me far more cautious.

My advice is to lock your thumb down as if you were gripping a hammer.

[Aslan]

I agree with Wylycoyte on the thumb issue.

There are two conflicting schools of thought on grips, at least it appears to be. Tight grip vs loose grip.

For me, I realized it's just like a strike with a fist. Relaxed is faster, but the grip has to be tight when you connect.

I don't know how to describe it beyond that. It's like a zen thing. You will know it when you can do it, but until then you won't understand.

[Aslan]

Limb destruction is where it's at, for me, for the most part.

Attacking the wrists and hands of your opponent can take the fight right out of someone quickly.

Sever the tendons along the back of the hand and the hand is out of the fight.

Go for the wrist and you'll either sever the radial - inside the arm (and the guy will bleed out in short order) or you will sever the tendons and again take the hand out of the fight.

Slashes accross the forehead puts blood into the eyes and interferes with vision. Miss and you take out one or both eyes.

:devil:

[Aslan]

Don't forget your other hand....

make a strike towards centerline with the knifehand (This is safer earth blade - you'll see why).

As he goes to block, bring the knife hand towards his hand, bring your empty hand towards his blocking hand. the empty hand should catch him below the wrist, the knife hand above.

Don't stop the motion. (your arms are moving quickly, like a strike - which it is.) You will break either his arm or his wrist.

you used the knife to create a target of opportunity, but the knife was not the destructive force in this instance.

:devil:

[Aslan]

I really wish a Kali, Escrima, or Arnis artist were here. They eat, drink, and breathe this stuff. They've got some really cool stuff.

I once saw a guy do something like 200 cuts in less than a minute on a dummy. It was some of the most amazing knife work I have ever seen. And that included moving, empty hand strikes, etc.

Anyone that doesn't respect a blade has never seen one in the hands of someone that knows how to use one.

:devil:

[RIKA]

Thanks to everyone for your excellent informative posts. I would rather learn something than argue any day.

RIKA

[Aslan]

It's amazing how civil, how informative a thread can be when IT isn't polluting the thread with "look at me" posts. I'm hoping that I really am on ignore by him, and he's not just pretending this time.

:devil:

[Hard Rock]

Excellent posts Aslan...

I've got some experience in knife fighting and training and I'll just say one thing. I'd rather get in a gun fight or bare knuckles than a knife fight. They suck majorly.

The 3 things to remember about a knife fight is this...

1. You are going to get cut. No way around it. You will bleed.
2. You are going to win or lose in the first 30 seconds of the fight.
3. If you have any option to use anything else but a knife, do so.

Mike

[Aslan]

Yes, you will be cut. Get over it. Once you accept this, the mindset is actually better. Instead of worrying about getting cut, you focus on winning.

I've heard it as low as 10 seconds to determine the outcome, to the 30 second figure.

Best way to deal with a knife fight - don't be in one.

:devil:

[Hard Rock]

Agreed, it's a mind set. I've been in enough such fights to know how to get over it. When "it's on" I don't worry about it but I hate it all the same once it's over.

Mike

[Wylycoyte]

Limb destruction is where it's at, for me, for the most part.

Attacking the wrists and hands of your opponent can take the fight right out of someone quickly.

Sever the tendons along the back of the hand and the hand is out of the fight.

If you take a look at the Red Zone knife defense tape, they actually show that it's a lot harder to disable a limb that way than is frequently thought.
I haven't seen the tape yet, unfortunately, so I'll let a fellow who posts under the name of V42 do my talking for me:

"I just saw what is probably the single best knife defense video that I have ever seen in my life titled The Red Zone http://www.centerlinegym.com/red_zone.htm

It was put together very well in illustrating a methodolgy to give you a fighting chance to defend against a knife, comprehensive drills to to learn it, and debunked many martial arts and self defense myths and bad defenses that when demonstrated against live resistance fell flat on their face.

But most significant in terms of the discussion in this topic was their on camera interview of an emergency room doctor on effects of knife wounds and such. When asked about defanging the snake she commented that the only way it would be physiologically possible would be if the person had their hand on a table and you got a big machette and just slice all the way through several slices. But the body is an amazing thing and you have several tendons going to the hand and you might be able to cut two, three, four tendons and still have function in your hand.

Bottom line: You would have to cut through several layers and cut entirely around the forearm to disable the hand.

When asked if she had seen this before she commented, that she had seen it many, many times before especially with people who are drunk and they are squeezing her hand and have really good strenght and it was only when she was able to look and explore and see did you realize that a tendon or tendon was cut.

She detailed the case of a man who had a mirror fall on his forearm and cut 2-4 tendons and still able to move his fingers and able to grasp. And added in at the middle of the fight with adrenalyn pumping you will still have decent function.

She also went into details about many of the times listed for people to bleed out or go into shock after being cut was grossly unrealistic.

She also detailed the difference between emotional shock and medical shock. She explained that unless you cut the carteroid or femoral artery the blood loss that would put someone into shock and make them pass out would take much longer than the length of an average or even above average fight. In other words you have to inflict quite a bit of damage to someone to incapacitate them and physically force them to cease. He may choose to disengage out of fear or concern for his life, but don't think because you stabbed or cut him a few times the fight is over."

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=913&page=4&pp=10


As such, I think that, with a small knife, you shouldn't count on a slash or 2 to disable anything. If you're using a big bowie, kukhuri or machete, you've got enough momentum and edge to make disabling limbs more likely.

I'm not against cutting the limbs, but its generally highly dependent on range, and thus on footwork and zoning. Any hit is a good hit, though, and if all you can clip is someone's hand or finger, go for it.

The Red Zone tape can be purchased here:

http://www.centerlinegym.com/red_zone.htm

http://www.centerlinegym.com/red%20zone%20II.htm

[Aslan]

Not doubting the tape. But I have witnessed a hand being disabled by a targeted slash accross the back of the hand from a very sharp, but not very large knife. I cannot say for certain how much of it was psychological, but in any event it was effective.

For arguments sake, even if you cannot completely disable a limb, you certainly can reduce the effectiveness of it...

Just my two cents, and I don't claim to have the last word on anything...

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

Hey, as I said, any hit is a good hit!

Does anyone do any work with FIST gear or other protective equipment?

[Wylycoyte]

I once saw a guy do something like 200 cuts in less than a minute on a dummy. It was some of the most amazing knife work I have ever seen. And that included moving, empty hand strikes, etc.

Anyone that doesn't respect a blade has never seen one in the hands of someone that knows how to use one.

:devil:

I think the biggest key to being able to unlock that kind of speed for me was the sinawali drill. It's a simple drill, but it covers a lot of material, including elements of blocking, passing, and striking, with the material applicable to empty hands, sticks, knives, beer steins, etc. The drill is composed of striking with either a forehand motion or backhand motion, with either follow through (called fluid rythm) or immediate retraction at the apex of the swing (broken rhythm). The arms alternate, and the targets of the strike vary according to the drill, either high, low, or a mixture. If it seems like there's a lot going on in the drill, there is, yet its very simple to perform.

This gif is kind of choppy, but hopefully you'll get an idea of what sinawali's about from it if you haven't seen the exercise performed before:

http://www.arnis-online.de/singleanim.gif

[Aslan]

I will admit up front, that I don't practice enough with a blade anymore.

Like everything else, it is a perishable skill. But lately life demands have been pretty big - family, work, etc.

Should settle down soon and I will be able to get back on a normal work out schedule.

I've seen it before.

I've done a lot of combining of Pa'qua (I've seen about a dozen spellings) with knife work, and some of the change ups and direction changes are pretty effective at delivering damage.

But that's the real beauty of martial arts - taking two concepts and blending them into something that is yours. Your personal Xing (jing) has a lot of bearing on the styles and techniques you favor.

A good instructor recognizes this.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

Ba gua (or pa kua, or whateva) rocks! If I had to pick one art to study just because I liked the way it made me feel, it'd be that one, specifically the Chow style. What flavor of ba gua have you studied? Fu, Chow?

I attended a Western Martial Arts conference in Lansing, MI about 3 or 4 years back and was quite surprised that many of the movements I'd learned from ba gua and other arts were immediately applicabldn't have been surprised, as good movement is good movement.

[Aslan]

We mixed it up, taking bits from both. A lot of double change ups. single palm to double palm and out.

we even took some Hsing-i and put some of the postures in the mix.

Then it got kinda sadistic and we started drilling it more indonesian with very low stances and a lot of transitions through female stances.

Someone got the bright idea to take the Gung ji kata and rework it pa'qua style.

it looked cool, but you had to work it to get it to flow properly. (I doubt I could pull it off today LOL.)

:devil:

[gripper]

my own experience (at different times) was largely lucky for me;improv-anything goes . The fact that I'm here is a testament to blind stupid luck;in my case I grabbed what was handy-an E tool in one incident,I stayed out of reach and chopped into his legs as though I was taking down saplings or brush.He could have runined my day because I was in no condition to run away(beaten by his friends,and cornered).Another time,a screwdriver punhed down into a thigh muscle when some overgrown(he looked like a freakin'Easter Island Statue with feet)Samoan at a job back in my gypsy days,motivated him to let go of me. And THAT was a good thing;I felt I was in a giant nut cracker with that arm around my head( I goT my chin down somewhat in time,but DAMN he was strong...Anyhow,I stuck him with no real concious technique beyond "break contact&run like HELL".As a result of things like that and a few other noteworthy screw ups on my part sharpened my interest in weapons besides firearms,as well as close quartersa ,work in general.So, I tend to pay attention;grips can vary on knives, so I figure I can always learn something new.

[Wylycoyte]

Taking an e-tool to someone's legs is my idea of limb destruction! Those things can hit like an axe!

[andy]

first you have to HAVE one, and the entrenching tool has none of the speed or reach of a 3 sided, hollowmetal "walking stick". The take down option converts it from 4 ft long to a 2 ft long package, for handy carry on a bus or plane, or for storage. It uses an interrupted thread to achieve this, 1/3rd of a twist of your hands is all you need to assemble or disassemble it. The removable "head" is throwable, and heavy enough to do serious damage when so thrown, with a solid hit on chest or limb-bones, head, or groin. The cane crook, 1 ft down from the head, serves to sheild your hand, when you wield it as a sword. 3 sided tubing is much stronger than round tubing, and the corner of such a tube cuts pretty damned good, when swung enthusastically. Tapering from 1" cross section at the top, to 3/8" at the bottom, with a screw adjustment for length at the bottom, semi pointed 1/4" threaded ferrule projecting down there. It's a tasteful, discrete, deadly effective weapon, which you can carry anywhere. It's not "concealed", and only you can know if your knee hurts or not. :-) $250, custom made, nice hot-tank blued. Engraved initials, with gold "crayon" in the grooves, is an extra $50. At 3/4 lb, it is readily used with just one hand, and held with both hands, bayoneted-rifle style, you can thrust it all the way thru some pos's chest, no problem.

[gripper]

It was an old wooden handle(not the triangular foldin metal ones)...it was also the only thing I had,and at that moment,escape&evade was not an alternative.I lucked out;when I sidestepped himand chopped into the side outside of his calf and down towards his achilles&popped him across the head with the butt of the handle when that leg collapsed under him.I say lucky vbecause ;like I said,he was freaking HUGE.I know size isn't evrything,but THAT much in one place is SOMETHING.At least whenI'm the one its compared to;I'm about 150 (5'8")when I'm eating&sleeping enough,otherwise I'm a little short of that mark.

[Aslan]

The three sided staff, is probably less effective than a round one. the majority if the surfave area is flat, so any blows will be spread accross a larger area, reducing the impact force.

Blows delivered based on the points of the triangles will be easier to deflect, given the nice flat surfaces to either side of the point. Not to mention the type of grip and hand position necessary to properly deliver such.

Take the triangular cross secion of this staff. inscribe it within a circle. rotate the triange within the circle, you have an infinite number of points that deliver all of the impact of a blow into a small point.

It it much easier to change direction in a swing and still deliver the most effective blow possible. Since any spot on the circumfrence is the sweet spot, your grip is easier to be correct.

Not saying you can't hit someone with a triangular staff, but but a round staff will be a more efficient, effective staff weapon.

my two cents.

:devil:

[Rowane]

I just watch ninja movies and copy their moves. :rolleyes:
:laugh01:
And get your ass kicked OFF or dead. :dgrin:

[Rowane]

been studying the way of the sword since i was 8.

[Aslan]

been studying the way of the sword since i was 8.

Absolutely!

The more inputs from various perspectives, the better it all is.

:devil:

[Half elf]

The last time I used a knife the recipient got slashed on the inside of the wrist while holding my collar with the right hand. The immediate effect was a let loose of the shirt and back off, which was all I really wanted. I was near a Air Force base, and had just left the US Army, so I cant blame the redneck, we do all sorta look alike. I had the misafortune to ba the smallest one nearby when he decidedm to show off how bad he was. I do not like to fight at all, but a kinfe scares some people quicker than other things that are readily available.

[Aslan]

It is possible to make a cut with a knife such that it is nearly impossible to stop the bleeding (without surgery), short of using a torniquet and ensuring the loss of a limb. At least not in the timeframes it takes a typical first responder to arrive...

People should have respect for a blade. It is not a ranged weapon, but for CQB, it can actually be more effective than a pistol. A pistol disarm can be easier to accomplish than a knife disarm. (I said "can", not "is", and certainly not always...)

:devil:

[gripper]

More power to ya ,Half-Elf....it ain't the size of the dog in the fight..(and you know the rest!).Aslan here is right;even someone "untrained"but experienced (fought a lot) can ruin the day of someone within his operating envelope.Sharp steel(or for that matter ,wood,broken glass etc.) can un-zip whats important to your body and leave you bleeding in WAY too many places.
Strangely enough ,the last time I used steel on people,neither one got cut;I drew the attention of one to the bit of steel in my right hand and just about puc]nched a hole in is skull with a cross from my left.The other guy had some broken ribs from where I bunched him under the left pec with my right fist(knife in hand,point opposite my thumb),essentially using it like the roll of dimes&hockey tape from my miss-spent youth.

[krept]

I took Aikido under both under the Aikikai and Tohei's Ki Society. Did learn some stuff about swords/jos that translated to Aikido well, but knife is a little different.

From what I learned, unless you are probably high, high level... Aikido doesn't do very well when the opponent feints committed attacks... i.e. in Aikido it relies on a committed grab or strike; naturally, this is how you become in harmony with their energy as an Aikidoka would say.

I have never taken Escrima, but I've seen it practiced and received an impromptu lesson from someone who trained under Inosanto (at a place called Karate Mart, of all places). What I learned there in the brief 30 minutes opened my eyes. Escrima and related styles really kick ass and their method of sparring (IMO) is far superior to what Aikido has for weapons. Of course, in terms of applicability to every day life and philosophy, Aikido is perhaps the best of the martial arts (IMO), it was for no small reason that Kano said "this is my ideal martial art" upon seeing Ueshiba in action.

IMO, it's all about mixed martial arts. BJJ for the ground, Wrestling for the takedowns, Judo for the throws, Aikido for projections and evasion, Muay Thai for the strikes, solid CQB tactics for shooting... so much to learn, so little time. :D

cheers

[Aslan]

I think there is no single "ideal" martial art, other than whatever one fits your jing, or natural movements.

All martial arts have merit. It is the artist that takes the art and makes it their own that will excell.

I guarantee my Kun Tao looks different from others, even though the movements are the same - my energy and my flow will be different. The same with my JiuJitsu and Ving Tsun

:devil:

[gripper]

Could you elaborate on Ving Tsun a bit? I'm having a brain freeze.

[Wylycoyte]

Could you elaborate on Ving Tsun a bit? I'm having a brain freeze.

Wing chun with funny spelling. :p

[Aslan]

Yes, I had an instructor that insisted it was spelled that way... I personally like wing chun, but thought I'd be formal about it.

There are aspects of it that I really like, but I always felt it was an incomplete art, at least as it was taught when I was a student.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

Yes, I had an instructor that insisted it was spelled that way... I personally like wing chun, but thought I'd be formal about it.

There are aspects of it that I really like, but I always felt it was an incomplete art, at least as it was taught when I was a student.

:devil:


What do you feel its lacking? Besides ground grappling, that is.

[Aslan]

They don't emphasize kicks - they are there in the art, but they seem to be the step children... Also, some of the really destructive stuff seemed lacking.

It may have just been the instructor that I had. I know that the instructor you have can make all the difference in the world.

My take on schools and instructors is that it is a two way street, You need to click with the instructor and the art, or you are wasting everyone's time. Unfortunately, some schools are more of a belts for bucks type arrangement. I don't like those schools at all. If they offer a gauranteed black belt (or whatever) for x amount of money, then I think they are a scam.

I prefer a school that can on the fly decide to test you for a belt (or sash) without warning. You show up to class and they say we've decided to test you today for your next rank. And there's no additional fees or other bs. You test and you either pass or you don't.

The best school I ever went to had the following classifications: Students, Disciples, Teachers, Masters, and Grand Masters. That's it.

Disciples showed more commitment than students.
Teachers had embraced the art enough to teach others.

Masters and Grand masters were a whole 'nother ball of wax.

The requirements of becoming a master included teaching, extending the art, and a challenge set up by a Grand Master.

I never learned what it took to become a Grand Master - this was never discussed outside their circles. I have been told that people have died trying to become a Grand Master.

The artificial belt systems that most Americans embrace, are a problem. They take away from the essence of the arts. Who is the more skilled artist: The student that can do one technique flawlessly, or the one that can do 5 with mediocracy? The one that can do a Kata with the grace, form, and strength that makes you go wow, or the one that can technically do 4 or 5 katas where you say ok, they know it.

That's what I liked about the way we did it, vs the way most schools approach it. It all came from the heart, not from a checkbook.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

They don't emphasize kicks - they are there in the art, but they seem to be the step children... Also, some of the really destructive stuff seemed lacking.

An art lacking in kicks is fine by me. Low edge of boot kicks and stomps work well, but much of the rest tends to be off-balancing. Knees, though...an art that doesn't uphold a good knee shot is poor indeed. I vastly prefer the knee to come pretty much straight up the middle as opposed to the roundhouse variety. The straight knee is harder to block, IMO, and is harder to use while keeping up constant, aggressive forward drive.

What do you mean by "destructive stuff", anyway? Joint breaks?

[brass hammer]

An art lacking in kicks is fine by me. Low edge of boot kicks and stomps work well, but much of the rest tends to be off-balancing. Knees, though...an art that doesn't uphold a good knee shot is poor indeed. I vastly prefer the knee to come pretty much straight up the middle as opposed to the roundhouse variety. The straight knee is harder to block, IMO, and is harder to use while keeping up constant, aggressive forward drive.

What do you mean by "destructive stuff", anyway? Joint breaks?

this is 'cool' postin'! and i've never trained in a classroom other than the world stage, but it sounds to reason any kick above waist-line leaves a person more vulnerable than they should open them selves up to,i mean in the real 'nitty-gritty' it all winds up on the ground/grappling[with you on top/control if done right] i have not trained /worked out with "jake" lately!
but he's basically all mine when it goes to ground, [and he can hurt a person bad!on his feet]

thanks, thought i'd spend my .02 here at this 'watering trough'

[Wylycoyte]

i mean in the real 'nitty-gritty' it all winds up on the ground/grappling[with you on top/control if done right] i have not trained /worked out with "jake" lately!

I don't see this happening 100% of the time at all. It happens a fair enough bit to train in grappling, but its entirely possible and even desirable to wind up standing while the other person isn't. Then, of course, you Riverdance on his head.
:-punch:\

[Wylycoyte]

The straight knee is harder to block, IMO, and is harder to use while keeping up constant, aggressive forward drive.

That should read "...easier to use..."

[brass hammer]

aughmmmm....YES, I STAND CORRECTED!...[in my best , comander mcbrag, voice!remember him kiddies?]

i can agree, but if it's tight and extremly violent[not your normal barfight]

i feel the edge is mine[hell,i know it is]





:wavey:

[Wylycoyte]

I do see your point, the closer it is to a drag-out, tooth-and-claw fest, the more it will go towards clinch-range fighting. I do think your best bet is still to dump the other guy and remain standing, if only to back up and draw a pistol, but life doesn't always work this way. If you haven't been working on accessing weapons and preventing a training partner from doing the same during a clinch or grapple, you probably should start.

[brass hammer]

yes,wilyC the deathrow [ex] inmate 'jake' is quite the odd 'bird' and can strip an open [belt] gun, very fast[although, he hates them ,as he sez' they are just a thugs weapon] hell i've been in a knock down -drag-out 2 on 1 [me being the 1] and totally foregot about a .22mag-mini laced in my combat boot[to much johnnie walker black, i recon'] ...if your cruisin'/brusin' one will generally find it[it was my dog,as them 2 ol' boys shootin' pool tried to pet/play with him and i reckon the fight was on! needless to say that watering-hole, has a no dogs policy to this day! ha!never drink with your dog...or ..your mule ...for that matter! :dgrin:

[gripper]

I gues that the bottom line for any training would be"Play to your strengths,but work on your weaknesses"...and even if there is a style or technique that just does not mesh with you personally(biomechanics,personal traits&preference).trying to train or learn more of that can help you notice something being telegraphed you might otherwise miss;you may even come up with counters/evasions7responses of your own.
.....or so I read in my fortune cookie today at work :rofl:

[Wylycoyte]

Jim Grover/Kelly McCann of the crucible used to say "We love to train the things we ****ing hate!"

I think that applies here. If you're weak in an area, work it. That means training grappling if you're rotten at it, working weapons if you need to, stepping unto a boxing ring and getting your bell rung a few times, working out, etc.

When you're bent over heaving from wind sprints just think of it as weakness leaving the body, possibly along with lunch :p

[Wylycoyte]

yes,wilyC the deathrow [ex] inmate 'jake' is quite the odd 'bird' and can strip an open [belt] gun, very fast[although, he hates them ,as he sez' they are just a thugs weapon]

That's funny...I've heard people say that guns are for cowards, wimps, and now thugs...

At any rate, most kydex OWB holsters don't stand up to being yanked on at all. Fobus holsters are notorious for falling to pieces with one good pull.

[gripper]

I've never considered myself good(or lucky)enough to snatch or disable a belted weapon;If escape&evade was not an option I sually tried to at LEAST disable the weapon's bearer.....although I DID make use of the #2 pencil someone was careless enought to carry in their shirt pocket when I was a (DYS "clent")kid;if nothing else it gave him something to do besides hang on to me(like removing the pencil from his left thigh. :eek:

[Hard Ball]

As Am

erican frontersmen said from 1830 on "I want a knife like Bowie's."

[Hard Ball]

As American frontersmen said from 1830 on "I want a knife like Bowie's."

And I do. An 8 or 9 inch Bowie knife with the classic blade shape as improved by Bo Randall is almost ideal. And if you use it with the tactics employed in the 19th century it is extremely formidable.

[gripper]

Are there any makers of Bagwell pattern Bowies out there?Maybe at production costs?
I always liked the whole Bowie-with -an -extended -point thing he did with most of his stuff;you had enough belly&recurve for draw cuts,"point throw"incised slasoing&chopping blows,bit you could still get delicate with the tip if the need arose.

[Wylycoyte]

I only know of the Ontarios, Gripper:

http://www.knifestuff.com/ontario/large_knives/custom_bowie.htm

[Aslan]

As far as kicks go (getting back to topic) There's probably zero reason to ever kick someone higher than their knees in combat - for the reasons mentioned about opening yourself up. (doesn't mean you won't or that you never should, but typically there just isn't any real justification to do so.)

Break a knee or an ankle and you've taken the hand to hand fight out of your opponent.

:devil:

[Hard Ball]

There is an old Kung Fu saying that goes "A veteran smiles at a closed fist and laughs at a high kick."

[gripper]

You guys are right;I've almost NEVER used kicks higher than the diaphragm in scuffles.That said ,ther IS value to incorporating some of theminto your workout.There is muscle memory,and ther eis also the ability you get to biomechanically see an opponents shifts in stance,muscular tension,center of gravity etc.that cantelegraph what you might otherwise miss.Or at leaest that has been my experience;both some jumpers and some high kickers have "signale "to me when their signature moves were comming(like a knee bending down&forward to signal an iminent punch).Think of it as my version of wingshooting:slip by&hit'em in the air.Or slip in /around and hurt/destroy the inturding leg.Slamming elbows(or even solid punches)into toes&other breakables on th efeet(like insteps)does much to discourage that behvioral trait(somone trying to kick you like they saw on Shaolin Soccer).And its cool to see the look on their face when you've canceled out their highly refined,beutiful move with something as crude as a hook into their foot.Or an elbow into the b@lls.

[Aslan]

I used to spar with a TKD practitioner. Every time he'd try to set up for a spinning kick, I'd simply step into him, with with a double fist, or step female through his stance and put him on his ass. Took about a week of solid sparring before he abandoned the spinning kick stuff completely.

A couple others to toally piss off a high kicker (both require speed and timing):

method one:
Step to the side (inside or outside) of the kick - females or pivots into three stances work quite well and kick the underside of thier kicking leg up with yours. Nasty, effective, and embarassing to them.

method two:
Step to the side, transition to a low horse and scoot under their kick. Tiger the underside of the hamstring and then palm strike them in the balls. Even if the tiger to the hamstring doesn't do any real damage, it's a wake up call. The palm strike will do one of two things - completely take the wind out of their sails, or put them on their ass. (as anyone knows, a strike to the groin may or may not connect and cause damage. It will, however get their complete attention.)

There's others, like an elbow straight down into the thigh as they kick high. (I like this against side kicks.)

:devil:

[gripper]

Aslan;
I've used the elbow(back or down)into thugh muscle to get over on grappler types.You're right-its VERY effective.Sort of like railroad spiking the leg.Not as obvious as taking out the knee,but thats some PAIN....talk about your behavior modification.OWWWW!

[Aslan]

Thigh is a very large muscle with a lot of blood in it. Easier to damage than many people think. (Ever see a pro football player removed from a field because of a bruised thigh? - ever wonder why they wear thigh pads?)

:devil:

[whytepizza]

i might be one of the few people who likes knives, but am fine without them too. As it was stated in the beginning of this thread people tend to train themselves or have the misconception of aiming a knife at the center mass, i just go for whatever they would give me. The come at me with a knife, there are knuckles, they come at me with a food, there are tendons, they come at me with a brick, there is dodging.
To me, knives are only good when someone is being attacked by a careless aggressor. The iraqi's learned real quick that when U.S. forces try to stop a soldier attacking with alateral strike and a knife the U.S. soldiers were trained to x-bloxk or just put their arm up to stop. So, the Iraqi's would release the knife and have it sink into the U.S. soldier's shoulder, heart, etc..
I have found most people that use a knife feel safe because they have a knife and unsafe because they don't have a knife. It takes alot of training to overcome that, realize you're just as vonrable with a knife, and adjust yourself to be comfortable with or without. that was, fear does not control the mindset that you have established. Remove the FIGHT OR FLIGHT! People focus on the knife, or on the survival, not the attacker who is weak in soooooo many places because they get cocky with a knife.
Just my thoughts.
As for kicks, i like to roll with a kick. Systemic style. Hit them in their hip to cause intense pain and make them turn. As for kicking while on the ground, i never go above the knee, except occasionally to get some twist in their body to get to the back of their knee or ankle.

[gripper]

Funny that you should mention the pelvis as a target...At clinch range that is one of the shots I like to make.And I thought I was the only one to stumble across that particular one:cool:
I know very little about Russian combatives beyond what a couple of emigre friends (Russian vets)told me RE Sambo .Any school contacts??

[whytepizza]

Funny that you should mention the pelvis as a target...At clinch range that is one of the shots I like to make.And I thought I was the only one to stumble across that particular one:cool:
I know very little about Russian combatives beyond what a couple of emigre friends (Russian vets)told me RE Sambo .Any school contacts??

It's an easy move that most people don't think others will make. Russian combatives is interesting. It's tough to find anything online about it, because it's relatively new to the western world.
I stopped in Russia with the money the military gave me to sign on with (jipped compared to now) and saw some Systema in Ukraine. I did some research in Germany and figured i'd try it out. I went back to russia for a month and found Vlad Vasiliev (one of the founders and former Spetz who has a school in Canada) was teaching. I talked to him a little and he had me in a few training exercises. Awesome guy, and wicked crazy.
I didn't train from anyone else, except Vlad, but i did watch, because alot of the other guys put a huge religious twist on it (it was started thanks to the Russian orthodox). Since then, i've been training in it alot, back and forth to Russia for work. It's been nearly two or three years. I only know of one guy, personally, Alex Wilkie in Somerset/Bridgewater NJ. But he mixes systema with other arts in order to make it readily acceptable by the students. He has one student that teaches, as well.
Anyway, russianmartialart.com has a list of all the training centers. They usually don't focus on knife fighting, per say, but primarily on how to defend youself against them or attack someone with a knife. The idea is to be bettwe without a weapon than with one (and no, none of that dragon ball z :hot: non-physical pushing sh!t).
Look into it if you're interested, i've found it very useful and was very skeptical at first.
Knife work with them is my favorite, especially feeling the knife and then moving in order to evade it. Basically, we took knives (dull but still hurts), and slowly tried to stab people in the chest while they were blindfolded and their hands tied behind their backs. As the knife hits, on feeling alone, you know to move out of the way, evade, and redirect. After a week of doing that your reflexes and comfort with the technique is incredible. The next step, was jumping into ice cold water (in Russia!), then trying the same technique. You're muscles tense and tighten, therefore making you control your own body's relaxation in order to not get stabbed. Quite extraordinary, and brutal training, but it works!