quote

[hipster]

"I suggest that those interested in martial arts and Hand to Hand stuff visit the forum on this site and post their questions - there are a number of people here with rankings that are actually acknowledged by their respective associations.

We welcome questions and can offer all kinds of advice - just remember that anything free is worth what you pay for it"

Please forgive me for asking that question in that forum but it is like they say fishin ain't much good if you don't bait your hook. I figure it was smallish of me but I could not resist. I would ask though andy speaks of a not well known Korean art but he says he has instructed Karate for 31 years. Hmmmmm makes me wonder whats what about what. Kind of funny though a Korean man in his 60's and his wife run a small resturant a block away from my work. I only know him as master Kim this man taught hand to hand combat to US marines on their way to the Nam in the 70's He showed me all his millitary documents Id cards ect. Whenever we go there for lunch I get picked for a demo on striking and blocking always shames me but teaches me at the same time.

I have to bow to this man with reverence for what he is showing us in his silly fun way. I asked him last week why he picked me all the time. I know it was not size and I know it was not skills. Master Kim replied " I pick you because I know I can run much faster than you if you get mad at me. This is the way it always is silly fun with a lesson in life. We call it Dinner and a Show.

[gripper]

Hipster,is Master Kim any relation to J.H. KIM??
I was wonderin...it s acommon name,but in a smaller world....

[hipster]

I can't say for sure but I am in canada and seeing that Master Kim has only lived here for 10 years so you never know. If I remember I will ask him the next time I am there for lunch. The food is excellent as are the lessons.

[Aslan]

I don't know why you say that it is not a well known art. It is a very well established art, with a very strong formal association.

I would hope that you would maintain healthy skepticism for whatever your read or are told, by ANY of us.

Be wary of the man who claims his kicks, blocks, punches, etc. never fail, or that they are unblockable.

Especially if the information is presented in a manner that suggests a complete lack of discipline.

I've known many black belts (or equivalent rank in sash systems). Some were total jerks that I could not stand, and would to this day only acknowledge them out of respect for their ranks. Jerks or not, they all had one thing in common. They demonstrated some level of personal discipline and understood at least basic levels of decency and respect for others.

But, you have to decide for yourself, just like you have to choose your own path.

A martial arts instructor doesn't teach, only facilitates you teaching yourself.

:devil:

[hipster]

I was not specific enough my fault. MooDukKwan the form or style that andy listed I have never heard of well at least up here anyway, sorry for the unclear post.

[krept]

The bottom line is that a person that has spent his or her life training in a martial art can get destroyed by someone with superior attributes. Some of them are gameness (willing to really bang), ferocity, tenacity and STAMINA.

All of the techniques in the world may be useful to know but if they aren't applied appropriately for the given moment and space. That's why it's really no big deal what people claim their martial arts (or better yet, streetfighting) background is.

Personally, I don't doubt that andy has done what he said he did. No reason to. But is that the end all/be all? Clearly it isn't. One thing that I know that many martial artists have a problem with is weapons, guns especially. The forum where I have been posting the longest was formerly submissionfighting.com, now known as mma.tv. There are many people there... experienced fighters who I'm sure could KTFO or choke out many a "blackbelt" that think guns are for whimps, etc.

Now as far as andy goes... I think if anyone had a beef with him, they'd be much more apt to take a couple bullets in the gut than get kicked, but that's just me. Personally, I'd expect that from most people posting here anyways, even the ones with above average skillsets... why go empty handed when it's a self defense situation? Too many people make that mistake in the real world... skilled fighters who competed in sanctioned events have been shot, stabbed, etc. I'm not saying by any means that "unarmed fighting" is not worth studying, but I don't put at much faith in a blackbelt as I did when I was a kid decades ago...

for what it's worth...
cheers

[gripper]

Hipster;I have heard Moo Do Kwan referenced among instructors and practioners of Korean forms.It was usualluy in reference tobranches of TKD and offshoots ,such as Tang Soo Do,,and among people ( who may still be around!) such as Meong Sik An(spelling uncertain on my part;I don'y speak Hangul beyond recognizing the signs of MPs comming,ora few fight starter's insults).
There IS a breakdown between "sport"oriented schools,and "practical" schools,Korean forms and disciplines are no exception.Case in point,Korean styles, and Shptokan have a common"ancestor";Shorin Jitsu(or Shorinji-Ryu,Shorinji Kempo). The ancestor produced two "hard" styles,Shotokan, a linear, style(straight on attacks,"one punch kill " types,suited to aromored Samurai,etc,and hwarang Do's Tae Kwon Do&Hapkido.
Both national/regional schools,although considered "hard "styles,incoroporate some practical CQB(Iwithin an arms reach) skills not always emphasized.Shotokan(and other Japanese styles often includesKobudo/Koppo,"warrior grappling",close quarters work associated with Jiu Jitsu )or Aikido)(Koppo would be attacks&manipulations to /of the skeletal-bones etc).Korean schools ,although generating power through turns&circular pivots&movements are considered hard "distance"oriented (at least the way many schools here have become),but good teachers want their students to also learn how to fight when they are within an arms length,or off of their feet.
Hey,once I get going... :offtopic:

[andy]

MooDukKwan was what Moon Taught, only instructor for MANY miles around where I was based in Korea. In Army, asshole, you don't GET to move around Korea, you are STUCK where you are based. Depending upon the footing, clothing, distance at which the crap starts, a flying sidekick is a LOT more likely to settle things than is a typical bullet. it will send you flying, and then you get STOMPED before you can get your **** back together (if the kick didn't make you puke out your lungs, that is). :-)

[Half elf]

A flying side kick usually leaves the kicker laying on their backs looking up anywhere but the dojo. Ive seen more than one person beat themselves by being too fancy, and overextending their abilities. A flying back, or side kick leaves you open to counters that you can not do anything but accept, as you have no anchor point. These moves although showy and impressive are not usually practical due to the type of clothing worn on the street, terrain, lighting, and general lack of perfect laboratory conditions needed for most people to pull this off.

[Aslan]

Flying kicks are a good way to get yourself messed up. A black belt would know this, a yellow belt would think they are all hot **** because they can do one and have not been taught why they are a bad idea.

Go ahead and try flying and spinning stuff when it is for real. Pray that your opponent is an idiot. (Pray that they are a bigger idiot than you are)

A simple pivot, stepping female, or a small step, will all get you out of the path of a flying kick, leaving you well anchored and in position to put a hurt on the moron as he sails past you.

Hell, just grab his head and rotate your hips to either side of his path. If you don't break his neck, you will get his attention. Doesn't require any strength, it is simply a redirection of momentum. (This is also a low skill, non-fancy technique. simple and to the point.)

It's posts like these that leave me beleiving you are probably no higher than a yellow belt in ability. So, you are either lying about your martial arts, or your instructor laughed his ass off on the way to the bank.

:devil:

[Aslan]

when it is for real, I doubt that I would do many, if any, kicks higher than the waist. Most will be targeting knees, ankles, and thighs.

Defending against these kicks leaves the upper body open to attack.

:devil:

[krept]

sometimes. IMO it really depends on the body type. I've saw a Marine in a streetfight in Oceanside, CA throw a spinning heel and KTFO the guy he was up against. Guys like Genki Sudo, Sakurai and Sakuraba use flying kicks well in MMA. Guys like Pete Williams, Gilbert Yvel and others have used kicks to the head to lay people low in similar contests. Granted, it's not "on the street" but less kicks to the stones and eye gouges, the slams, trips, etc. are all still there and people are MUCH more likely to use sacrifice throws if they know they're not going to be screwed up by concrete.

Nonetheless, the way I'm built I'm not a high kick guy, low center of gravity with tree trunk legs. Someone with long legs, I can see it easily. Much more likely to use thai knees in a clinch to the head before my foot or shin will ever get there. Some people aren't built for inside banging either or grappling, so I can see why they'd want to keep their distance as much as possible, using the longest range possible - stick and move.

Most of the knee, thigh attacks are negated by lifting the lead foot off the ground a foot or two. Not sure about the ankle attacks, unless it's a modified sweep.

fwiw,

cheers

[Aslan]

The lifting the lead foot does two things, places all your weight on the back leg, and does break your center somewhat. Also, there are techniques that want you to do just that. bringing your foot off the ground a foot or two opens the top of the thigh to an elbow, or a kick from underneath into the hamstrings.

Yes, there are people that can do the flying and spinning stuff, but it can and does open you up to other attacks.

Spinning kicks are very open to someone who is quick, stepping into the kicker and through the planted foot.

I should know better than the state an absoulte. How about: Most people should not attempt any of the flying and spinning crap when it is for real.

I used to spar regularly with a TKD guy. Everytime he tried to do a spinning kick, I'd simply step into him with a double fist or sweep the other leg and put him on his ass every time.

Personally, I like the simpler more straightforward stuff.

:devil:

[krept]

Agreed, that's kind of where I'm coming from. IMO some of the best, straightforward bangers are the Muay Thai guys and that's their defense for at least the Thai style kicks that are done more to wear you down as opposed to being instantly disabling. You probably know this, but I'm not talking about lifting the leg up and centering the gravity back over the rear leg, but more like an interrupted step... kind of like this photo

http://www.shukokarate.co.uk/images/kevthai1.jpg

I guess you can say there is a counter to every defense... that's where the fun begins when things get mixed up :D

cheers

[Aslan]

Erik, are you by chance, originally from the UK?

Just curious.

And I agree with you, that IS where the fun begins...

:devil:

[krept]

No, born and raised in the US of A... was born at the US Naval Academy hospital of all places :D

What were the counters that you were talking about? Always interesting hearing different theories.

Thanks

[Aslan]

You can always block a kick with a kick, though that can be dicey if the other guy has way stronger legs than you do, but you can deflect them really well with a kick.

KunTao Silat does a lot of moves on a 45 to your opponent, which creates openings, we also incorporate Pa'Qua (there's probably a million spellings out there) and Hsing-I.

I hate going agains the Muay Thai guys, at least the serious ones. They spend a lot of time and energy strengthening and deadening their shins.

High kicks I like to counter with a kick under their leg or by stepping through their back leg. I also like using the dragon's tail while stepping pass them when they kick. It's a pretty good CQB kick, as you don't really need any separtation between you and your opponent to do it. It also sets up nicely for other moves.

:devil:

[gripper]

Body type DOES have an an effect on your choice or preferred movements.Despite some of the Korean influences(and Japanese and Thai),I mainly use the turns or circular movements to bring things ouyt of my core strength;"turning from the center"as it were.I'm a short legged ,long armed guy(a funny looking bastard If you ask anyone :nyah: but I think something to learn can be found in almost any system.
Blocking with kicks?I've done it;although I'd say it was more luck than skill on my part(low front snap,popping an incomming high flyer off target).Whether or not the arm or the leg is the blocking extremity,it's been my experience that you can categorize them into the following:A)Complete avoidance-always desirable.B)Making the block a strike;either to damage the offending extremeity,or slip past it and hit other targets;torso,etc.C)Using the block more to slip/sweep &redirect the danger.A good tool in the inventory when the other guy(the Job) is VERY powerful and limb destruction is not an option.
I gotta concur (once again)with Aslan,I prefer to simplify this stuff myself.

[Aslan]

Then it sounds like you'd probably do well with pa'Qua, which is a lot of circling with change ups and using direction shifts to generate energy and openings.

KunTao Silat uses movements on the 45's relative to your opponent to also create openings and to take away some of the weapons other styles use. If you do this against someone who is used to a more linnear style, it can frustrate them greatly.

I think the keys to being successful are to move, never simply strike once or rely on a single blow, and most of all, decide up front not to lose.

Good techniques always seem to incorporate at least 3 or 4 different strikes...

:devil:

[krept]

Aslan, have you sparred with guys that shoot in for takedowns (like wrestlers)? I'm just wondering how that would alter your kick defense... from my knowledge, martial artists that rely on kicking have a higher center of gravity than punchers or grapplers... granted, all are used, but because kicking is the long range weapon, it's easy for someone with a good kicking background to enter into an encounter with a long range (higher center of gravity) mindset.

All of the guys I have trained with in the last 6 years (a handfull) have all been mixed martial artists, meaning they can bang it out, but really want to engage in some kind of grappling, if for only ground and pound. Never had the chance to spar with a pure striker who isn't a boxer.

cheers

[Aslan]

I don't rely on kicking - sorry if I gave that impression. My point was, if I'm going to kick, they will more than likely be low kicks....

I love going against grapplers (my judo background I guess).

What I have found, is you have to keep moving and go low when they go low....

If you go against a good grappler, you will end up on the ground - what happens when you get there is up to you though..

:devil:

[brass hammer]

PRECISLY! the ground is where it WILL end up ,in a square off with [2] 'pumped' combatants, i think about 80% of the time!
with no blind-sides/sucker punch on the opening salvo!


we had several "smoker" bouts in the marines on floats/deployed [ha!]

i tried to get this one 1st lt. to go with me [he was a bad-ass s.o.b.]

he declined[as he felt it was beneath him].. so i took on my platoon comander,a butter bar lt.... i went out and stuck him in the dirt in 10 seconds flat!...well the up-roar of the officer core was not comforting after that!
[i felt bad, for doing that to him and we went at it again, ] i was more 'reserved' and he did get a 'judo' arm back flip on me, and the "BRASS'
was contented [whew] :roflmao1:




:wavey:

[Hard Ball]

There is an old Kung Fu proverb that goes "A veteran smiles at a closed fist and laughs at a high kick."

[gripper]

Hardball,its funny you should mention that;I was sparring unexpectedly(after a heavy endurance&iron pile workout),with an Irish kid (he does Chinese styles).Being tired befroe I went into my "corner&club'em"mode";in close,knees,elbows,hooks&other inside shots.He stayed,game behind his guard even while I was slamming his shoulders&arms with hooks,when on the third hook to the right shoulder-get this-he kind of folded his head down to the outside of his left foot a half second before I got a glimpse of the bottom of his right heep spearing up at my face.I'm lucky he did'nt clean my clock.As it was I must have noticed something in time,because I had my chin down&inside my left shoulder;thats where I took the foot instead of the face.Tattoo on my left shoulder has a nice impression of the sole of his cross trainers(Atomix brand).I gues the two of us will be pretty sore tomorrow.WTH,it will be sunday-easy run(I hope) outdoors for a change.

[andy]

u wouldn't be smiling if you waited to see MY fist coming. because my punches travel from chambered to full extention in .12 second. You'd never know what hit you. You'd just have a caved in face when (and IF) you woke up. From the guard position, the fist hits you in .07 second, way too fast for you to do jack **** about it. :-)

[RIKA]

u wouldn't be smiling if you waited to see MY fist coming. because my punches travel from chambered to full extention in .12 second. You'd never know what hit you. You'd just have a caved in face when (and IF) you woke up. From the guard position, the fist hits you in .07 second, way too fast for you to do jack **** about it. :-)

Andy has tested his punching ability on General Teddy. Tore the general's arm off with one of those vicious punches. Boy was andy's wife upset when she had to sew teddy's arm back on so andy would stop crying.

How do I know? The sock puppet told me.

RIKA (shivering in her boots)

[copycat]

"Rika" you are very funny!!! Andy if bull**** was brains you'd be a genuis.

[Stillwater]

u wouldn't be smiling if you waited to see MY fist coming. because my punches travel from chambered to full extention in .12 second. You'd never know what hit you. You'd just have a caved in face when (and IF) you woke up. From the guard position, the fist hits you in .07 second, way too fast for you to do jack **** about it. :-)

More of NUTTY JOHN'S patented TOUGH CON act.

There might be a couple of little children in Peoria that would be impressed with it.

[gripper]

Andy:As you know you have a standing invitation to come visit.Oh;and you want to show me your handspeed?Thats nice.Please ,feel free to come and visit.As everyone here can see,I'm reminding you of my polite,non-threatening invitation.I so look forward to your impending visit.Tell me,will you be able to make the bus fare yourself?Feel free tofollow up on your expressed desire to demonstrate to me your punching ability.

[Hasher]

More of his tough con fantasy life.

[gripper]

Still waiting,Andy.......

[Aslan]

u wouldn't be smiling if you waited to see MY fist coming. because my punches travel from chambered to full extention in .12 second. You'd never know what hit you. You'd just have a caved in face when (and IF) you woke up. From the guard position, the fist hits you in .07 second, way too fast for you to do jack **** about it. :-)

This is one of the stupidest posts you've made, and I bet you don't even know why.

But, if you think it sounds good, then more power to you.

:devil:

[copycat]

So how exactly did you time your punches Andy??? Bull**** walks, and GK talks, it all smells the same.

[gripper]

Oh,thanks for the reiminder....still waiting,Andy.....
Copycat for what its worth,I doubt either of us will get a substantive response.Me;he won't follw up on because he's figured I'll respond to physical threats decisively;you ,because he's busily googling up a slew of plausible answeres.Hey;he can be an@sshole,but he's OUR @sshole,