CMMG of Fayette. MO and FNH-USA (Bad guys)

[Rich Z]

This thread has been copied, in part, from an existing thread in the Rifles forum. Information in that thread needed to be placed in this Board of Inquiry forum where it is pertinent.

Well my SPR came in today and I picked it up from my FFL guy. Some puzzling things about it, though.

The bolt has some very noticeable wear on it. Much more then I would expect on a new gun. The extractor has wear showing on the front of the blade where it would hit the rim of the cartridge when the bolt is closed. The rounds fired log that came with the gun only show 7 rounds being fired from the gun by FN, and this was back in early 2003. Now the odd thing is that the scope mount itself looks like it has NEVER had rings mounted on it at all. So it has me kind of puzzled.

Yeah, the serial number on the bolt matches up with the gun. The gun itself looks pristine, but darn if I can figure out why that bolt looks like it does.

The box it came in was beat to hell and the styro liner broken up pretty badly.

Oh, and besides a test target and the shots log, there was no other manual provided with the gun. Now I know I probably have a Winchester model 70 manual around here somewhere, but it would probably take me DAYS to find it. And I couldn't figure out how in the world to get that bolt into the darned receiver for anything tonight. Rather then fuss and fiddle with it, I just decided to come over here to the den and fume for a while. I did send off an email to the place I got this thing from expressing my concerns. Darn it, if I buy a new gun I really do expect to get a manual with it.

Anyway, GRIPE MODE off.....

BTW, this is one HEAVY darn rifle. It will probably be a real pussycat shooting .308s out of.

[Rich Z]

I installed the bolt into the gun earlier today. I should have remembered how, since I have two model 70 Winchesters already. Duh....

Anyway, I was quite astonished at an excessive amount of chatter I heard while working the bolt. Not the usual buttery smooth, crisp, and silent action I am accustomed to with quality firearms. Not at all. So upon inspection I discovered that the serial number stamped into the bolt is exactly where the bolt stop in the receiver rides on the bolt itself. So the chatter I heard is caused by the bolt stop rubbing against that serial number. Obviously, this has been done MANY times before I ever received this gun based on the obvious wear trail I see on that bolt.

Minor detail, but although the log book shows a factory setting of 4 - 4.5 pounds for the trigger pull, this one is no where near that. More like 8 pounds if my trigger finger is accurate on squeeze guestimation. Definitely not what you want on a sniper grade rifle.

Quite likely this gun has been sent to other people, who noted the problem with the bolt stop I mentioned above, and sent it back to them for the same reasons I am going to.

So, based on the wear on the bolt, the extremely beat up box, and the rounds fired log dating 7 fired targetting rounds back on 3/14/03, my only conclusion can be that this gun is NOT new at all, but is a used gun and has likely been passed from hand to hand several times. I'm not sure it has ever been fired, but I think "used" can certainly apply to a firearm that has had the bolt worked an excessive number of times to create the wear I see, not to mention the excessive amount of dry firing that this guy likely had as well.

I am still puzzled about the wear on the front of the extractor blade. It would take more then 7 test rounds to produce the wear I see, but I would think the gun itself would show more signs of being fired. I guess I am basing that "unfired" determination solely upon the scope mount appearing to never have had rings on it. I guess it is entirely possible that the scope mount could have been replaced.

So gut feelings are showing red lights all across the board.

I have fired off an email to CMMG, INC, the place where I bought this gun from, requesting a return of this item for a full refund.

Dammit....... :hot:

[RIKA]

Rich, it really sucks to receive something that doesn't work. But for your Christmas present and on Christmas eve - thats positively evil. I'm so sorry but at least you should get your money back plus two way shipping. Are you going to ask for a new rifle or just write them off? I'd tell them to go to hell but thats just me.

Tomorrow will be a better day.

RIKA

[Rich Z]

Rika,

Yeah, thanks. I'm not sure what I am going to do as far as a replacement or refund is concerned. I'll have to play that by ear.

But it is right disconcerting that I bought this gun based on glowing reviews about FN and their quality and attention to detail. But to put the bolt serial number right where the bolt stop would ride over it with each throw of the bolt? Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I think it would take someone as dumb as a box of rocks to do something like that. So much for the "attention to detail" thing. Based on that fact alone, I would likely just want my money back and scrap the entire idea of a FN rifle. But if this is a manufacturing error, well I don't know. Why didn't quality control catch that before it went out the door?

Like I said, bad vibes......

So I have to stew over this until probably Monday, which would be the first I would expect to hear back from anyone.
:-punch:

[Rich Z]

OK, I've taken some pics of that bolt so you all can take a look at it and tell me if I am barking up the wrong tree about this thing. I see too much wear for a gun that was supposedly new and only fired 7 rounds at the factory for testing. What do you all think?
http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear001.jpg

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear002.jpg

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear003.jpg

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear004.jpg

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear005.jpg

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear006.jpg

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear007.jpg

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/fn_wear008.jpg

[Coyote]

I'd say your absolutely right.

[RIKA]

No way you would get that much wear from only 7 rounds.

RIKA

[Magnum88C]

LOL, I'm no expert, but there's no way that's new.

[Rich Z]

Well I'm glad it's not just me thinking that. Well, I've sent off a few emails to CMMG, Inc now. Let's see how they respond to this problem. I should have taken a photo of the box it came in. The styro liner is beat to crap.

BTW, I didn't point it out in the photo, but notice that serial number on the bolt? That is where the bolt stop in the receiver rides whenever the bolt is slid back and forth. Who in their right mind would put the serial number on a riding surface like that? Matter of fact, I would think that ANYWHERE but where that serial number had been stamped would have been better!

The reason I bought the FN was from the glowing reviews about their quality control and attention to detail in modifying a stock Winchester Model 70 action for accuracy and precision. This sure throws a curve at me for believing what I have been reading.... If CMMG offers a replacement, and this serial number problem is "standard" I think I will decline. You wouldn't believe the racket it makes when the bolt is worked in the action. Sounds like you have sand in it.

[41mag]

A little of topic maybe but,um,haven't you had problems w/two rifles in a row now?(The Remington 597 scope mount?)

Maybe you should consider killing a chicken.Or at least paying a High Priestess of Set to lift your rifle curse?& I'd stay away from the .50s for a while yet too.Just in case.Can never be too careful.:)

[Rich Z]

A little of topic maybe but,um,haven't you had problems w/two rifles in a row now?(The Remington 597 scope mount?)

Maybe you should consider killing a chicken.Or at least paying a High Priestess of Set to lift your rifle curse?& I'd stay away from the .50s for a while yet too.Just in case.Can never be too careful.:)


Well no, not in a row. I can recall at least three other rifles I have bought since the 597. And a few handguns, as well. Of course, I haven't shot most of them, so maybe there is something to what you are saying.....

[Rich Z]

Well, so far the correspondence from CMMG is not all that positive. The guy (John) is saying that he wants to take care of the problem, but he is saying this is FN's problem, not theirs. Although the problem of the serial number being stamped on the bolt where it is would certainly be their problem, the plain evidence of wear through excessive usage on the bolt certainly will not be their baby.

I won't let too much water go under the bridge before I file a fraud complaint with USPS on this.

Just what I need. Another frigging hassle....... :-punch:

[RIKA]

Rich,

Does the USPS fraud complaint really work? I've heard that they are so understaffed that they don't really bother to investigate or prosecute.

Luck

RIKA

[AZ COLLECTOR]

my suggestion would be to contact FN now and find out thier position. This way you may be able to leverage them against each other. also would allow you to find out from the horses mouth so to speak where in the BOLT FN regularly stamps serial #s.

Other thoughts....maybe it was just seven rounds.....
could be a soft finish...soft steel....really hard brass (just kidding).
or the used once at the match and sold new rifle.

the wear doesn't look bad as in still looks like it would function fine.
but FKed up for a NEW gun. is the wear that bad in the receiver?
have you run a bore scope down it yet?

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/

check out Pg 41 of thier downloadable catalog.
not same rifle but a nice FN and a reasonable price. great people to do business with as well and NO i don't work for them.

sean

[Rich Z]

I did sic the postal authorities on a guy that seemed to be dicking me around with a gun I bought from him over the internet. We resolved it between us, however. Come to find out it was on deployment and the emails were taking many days to get back and forth. His wife was handling a lot of the details, and apparently she really wasn't all that concerned over timeliness. But USPS inspectors did contact him and me, albeit not as quickly as I would have liked it to be. But I do believe they would have put some heat on the guy if I hadn't been able to give him a passing grade on the deal.

No, I don't have a borescope. But since the serial number on the bolt matches that of the gun, I would be kind of puzzled why the bolt would show so much wear and the receiver would not. From the looks of the styro liner around the gun in the shipping box, which was all broken to hell, I would say this gun has been shipped around or moved around quite a bit. One possibility is that I am not the first person to have gotten this gun and rejected it after hearing that noise when working the bold and the bolt stop slides over the serial number on the bolt. It is VERY noticeable.

Or maybe this gun has made a LOT of trips to gunshows were many people worked the bolt and passed on it because of the above noted problem.

But something is definitely not kosher here.

I went to FN's website but didn't see a general contact number to contact. Mostly sales, and related to law enforcement or military sales. I may have to look harder or just started contacting people until I do reach someone who can help.

The statement I got from John at CMMG about the gun and it's source is this:

FNs last run of SPR A1s were made in the early part of
03. This weapon came from Arnold MO(FNs distribution
center) approximately 6 months ago. The weapon is new
and has only been factory test fired.

That said if there is an issue with the weapon(factory
defect) this will have to be handled through FN. I
have all their contact info and will be happy to
coordinate getting this resolved with either Bucky
Mills or Rick DeMilt(deputy director and director)


My comment about this was that this is CMMG's baby. THEY sold me the gun, so they need to resolve the problem. If FN does in fact, by policy, stamp the serial number on the bolt in the position as mine is where it contacts a riding surface and make the racket I hear, then I do not want a FN rifle. Period. I can't think of a single reasonable and logical reason someone would do something like that. My preference is to send the gun back to CMMG. If the serial number stamping is a mistake on FN's part, then they can send me a replacement. If that serial number stamping is the way they do it, then I want my money back.

The "issue" with the gun that may be FN's fault is the serial number on the bolt. They certainly will not have anything to do concerning the excessive wear I am seeing. And I certainly do not want to get involved with sending the gun back to FN and incur the time, trouble and expense of something like that. I want to be SHOOTING the gun I bought, not sending it all over hell and creation trying to find out who to point the finger at.

This crap with retailers saying that they are not responsible for the merchandise they sell is pure bs. If you are in business and make a profit on what you sell, then you damned sight BETTER take responsibility or why the heck should I even deal with you at all? Unfortunately, this appears to be getting more and more SOP with gun dealers, I guess. And they probably don't have a clue why people would love to be able to cut out the middle men in their purchaes.

[41mag]

You're exactly right.It is the manufacturers responsibility through the retailer.It sounds like the retailer really wants to have this problem rifle just go away.Like they can't send it back as a new defect because of the excessive wear.So,they're stuck with it until a sucker(who won't shove it back at them)comes along & lives w/the problems.

Sounds like you might have to push & maybe trade some polite insults to get satisfaction on this.

[Rich Z]

Had a phone message on the machine today when I got back home that my FFL guy got a FedEx return sticker for this gun. He's been out of town all last week, so I don't know when this actually showed up at his place.

No idea what this means. Last correspondence with CMMG a guy named John said he was waiting to hear back from FN on Monday (tomorrow) about what to do about this problem. Perhaps my stressing the point that I DO NOT want this gun, finally sunk in.

I guess it doesn't matter to me as long as I get it resolved.

[Rich Z]

Well I just got an email from someone from FN:

My name is Ken Flood and I am the Regional Sales Manager for FNH-USA.

I have read the emails you have sent to CMMG and I have looked at the
pictures you sent. I also had the Director of Sales and Marketing look at
the pictures and we do not see anything that is defective.

Let me explain why you see wear on the bolt. First off let me say that I
know CMMG very well, in fact they live 30 minutes away from me. I know them
to be the most honest, ethical business people I have ever met. So when
they tell me that the rifle was never fired while they had it, I believe
them without question.

The reason you see wear is because the bolt is hand lapped into the barrel
extension and polished along with the races and internal safety parts. This
is done by coating the bolt with valve grinding compound and physically
opening and closing the bolt until it is smooth. The other parts are hand
polished with a wheel. The SPR rifles are built in a special cell within
USRAC and only a select few people are allowed to assemble these rifles.
Then they are test fired and then shot for group. This process could take as
many as 20 rounds. The test target is 10 rounds. I assure you that the
serial number is in the same place on all the rifles. Quality control
guarantees this.

I can assure you that you own one of the best rifles produced and that it is
indeed, a new in the box rifle. We therefore see no need to ship the rifle
back to either CMMG or FNH.


So tell me, does anyone else out there have one of these FN SPR rifles? Can anyone verify that all of them do in fact have the serial number stamped on the bolt right where it will ride across the bolt stop when the action is worked? I'm sorry, but I find that extremely difficult to believe.

[RIKA]

I believe that you need to contact someone in a higher position than Mr. Ken Flood. From the snotty sound of his email it appears that he is more interested in protecting his seller than making good on a defective rifle. At the least they should have allowed you to send it to them for inspection at your expense. At this point I would never buy another FN rifle unless I could personally inspect it before purchase.

I hope that you can get the attention of somebody higher in the company than a self important sales manager Rich. Perhaps then you can get some satisfaction.

RIKA

[brass hammer]

rich, imo, tell them to 'pound sand' with thier rifle!
if YOU are not 100% satisfied on an 'advertised' NEW IN THE BOX RIFLE!

where i sit, the judgement is in YOUR favor!

now i don't know you personally,or your lifestyle, but it sounds like YOU do have a legitiment[s.p.] bitch!

[Rich Z]

I'm looking for input on this from FiringLine and AR15.com. So far, no responses. Don't tell me I'm the only one around with one of these rifles? Surely SOMEONE else has one and can give me some input....

Anyone know of a couple of more really heavily travelled sites that may have some users with a rifle like this that I can post for help? Any sniper/countersniper related forums?

[brass hammer]

i have a couple in the fav's but not sure they or I can pull what is needed
tonight!

[41mag]

This site is fascinating!Veritable scads of info!

http://snipercountry.com/InReviews/FNHUSA_SPR.asp

[Rich Z]

Yeah, interesting article.

I have posted my query about this rifle on several other message boards. Not getting a whole lot of info back, however. Have not heard from any other FN SPR owners about that problem with the serial number stamped on the bolt where it is. Also have not heard a peep out of FNH-USA concerning the email I sent them detailing this problem.

Another thing that bugs me is that the card that came with the gun says it was set up at the factory for a 4 to 4.5 lb trigger pull. If that gun is less than 8 pounds, I'll swallow it whole with no ketchup. Just NO WAY.

I contacted CMMG and told them I am sending that gun back to them on Monday. Of course, they are saying they are going to charge me a 15 percent restocking fee. Personally, I think that will be a PR blunder on their part, but that is their decision to make. Right now, both CMMG and FNH-USA are at the bottom of my list of companies to buy from.

[41mag]

Rich,I only posted that link 'cause I thought it interesting.

Did you notice the Q&A section there?Staggering.

[Rich Z]

Arghh! Well I have posted this same gripe-o-post on another forum, and someone indicated that it probably was not the bolt stop that is causing the rubbing noise I am hearing. I have to confess, that I just jumped to a conclusion that the piece of metal I was looking at was called that. Not being all that familiar with the proper terms and such, I claim ignorance... But in any event, here's a photo of the "thingamajig" that is rubbing against the serial number stamped into the bolt. First question is: what IS this thingamajig? Second question is: should it be rubbing on the bolt at all? It looks like it is pretty close to being flush with the top of that channel it is in in the receiver, so is there a simply fix that could be done to fix this problem?

http://www.armslocker.com/pics/thingamajig01.jpg

Besides a Dremel, that is.... :shock:

[RIKA]

Shouldn't the bolt stop/release be on the left side just like a normal Mauser action. That thing-ama-jig on the bottom looks like the sear.

RIKA

[Rich Z]

Yeah, that's what I have been told on another forum. It's the sear rubbing on the bolt and making that noise when it runs across the serial number stamped there. I don't think this is normal.

[RIKA]

Rich, if you have to keep the rifle you could probably smooth up the bolt where the numbers are stamped and fix your problem. That would probably help your trigger pull too because the sear looks rather rough. No violation of Fed Law if you don't touch the number on the receiver.

RIKA

[Rich Z]

The gun is packed up waiting for FedEx to pick it up. I am not spending the money I did for a headache. I'll be going to the big gun show (for Florida, anyway) in Orlando this upcoming weekend, so I'll just keep my eyes peeled for something else. At least I will be able to "hands-on" it first. I've heard that the Savages with the new Accu-Trigger are VERY nice. Heck, I could buy maybe three of them for what I paid for that FN.

Thanks.

[Rich Z]

I posted about this issue on a couple of other boards:


http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=003450;p=1

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11146#11146

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=5&t=179975

Getting a few comments on both sides of the fence on this one, it appears.

[Rich Z]

Well, I got a refund from CMMG when I sent this rifle back to them. Of course, they kept the 15 percent "restocking fee". Help must be expensive out there in Missouri to charge me $200 to put a rifle back into stock.

[41mag]

Dang!Some of those arf.com people (?)(pricks)are worse than Andy on a bad day!

Look on the bright side.You lost $200+frt but you probably hurt their business a bit.

A little unknown revenge has to be some satisfaction,yes?

[Rich Z]

Oh, I really don't want to hurt their business. But I think people should know what they are getting into when they do business with someone.

But it ain't over with yet. That $209 they took from me might wind up being expensive for them. :dgrin: