Basic Unarmed Skills??

[Ratsinthegravyredux]

What do you consider to be the requisite basic unarmed skills?

Boxing [jab, cross, hook, uppercut]?
Palm heels?
Elbow?
Low Kicks?

[andy]

balance work, pivoting, gliding, blocking, kicking. The kicks are the thing to use, if you are good enough, and if the deck surface is adquate to not have you falling. USE that extra 2 ft of reach,and 2x as much power. TRY punching a 50 gallon drum, hard enough to throw it 10 ft, and have it roll 20m, as I can do with a jump side kick. :-) Set one barrel atop another, and have at it, you "think" hand blows have so much power. Then show me how you bend over and block a kick at your knee. :-) It takes about 200 hours, in 4 months or less, to have a CLUE how to kick, pivot, stand on one leg, jump, etc in an adquately focused and swift and balanced way. that's why so few have that ability, and that's why those who DO are so dangerous. Toss your coins or keys or hat in his face, and you can "glide-jump" kick his knee hard enough to bend it backwards, all in .40 second or less. EASY to hide change, etc, in your clenched fist.

[gripper]

Basic unarmed skills? Stay alive long enough to escape/evade and d/or arm yuourself....Seriously ,all of the boxing and other unarmed techniques you mentioned are useful things to practice.Andy there DID make some good points to ponder-that PRACTICE is essential.Try and incorporate some of the movement techniques into you PT,with or without weights.Make it ALL as functional as possible;even whern out running,try and move in that low lunge-shuffle step(bend knee in front of hip,knee forwars& daown.Knee comes forward-same side elbow/hand comes up . Push hand/pull elbow.Muscle memory combinmed with physical toughness&gameness can and has got/gotten peole through some scary $hit;make it a good training base to maintain and work from.Always be willing to learn another technique;even if it does not suit you physically or mentally;just because you're not "comfortable" with it,you can learn to pick up the subtle things some folks do unconciously that telegraphs an attack(bodily shifts,foot,knee and hand positioning).Oh,and did I mention practice?

[Wylycoyte]

balance work, pivoting, gliding, blocking, kicking. The kicks are the thing to use, if you are good enough, and if the deck surface is adquate to not have you falling. USE that extra 2 ft of reach,and 2x as much power. TRY punching a 50 gallon drum, hard enough to throw it 10 ft, and have it roll 20m, as I can do with a jump side kick. :-) Set one barrel atop another, and have at it, you "think" hand blows have so much power. Then show me how you bend over and block a kick at your knee. :-) It takes about 200 hours, in 4 months or less, to have a CLUE how to kick, pivot, stand on one leg, jump, etc in an adquately focused and swift and balanced way. that's why so few have that ability, and that's why those who DO are so dangerous. Toss your coins or keys or hat in his face, and you can "glide-jump" kick his knee hard enough to bend it backwards, all in .40 second or less. EASY to hide change, etc, in your clenched fist.

Which explains why boxers hand tae kwon do players their ass on a regular basis, and why they place so well in NHB competitions...

[krept]

well, I guess it gets more complicated the more detailed we look into it.

The "basics" that I consider are balance, distance and timing.

Distance is probably the easiest to talk about in a succinct manner. Again, this is assuming unarmed vs. unarmed. If you are unarmed and bad guy is armed, you'll want to open the distance to infinity or close it to intimate distance ASAP.

So you start out at kicking range. Ability to kick well, effectively, will depend on your body makeup and skills. Long leg guys can have KTFO power, short legged guys can use their kicks like a jab... rangefinder, checking legs to keep appropriate distance.

Move into hand striking range. Boxing comes in handy.

Move into clinch range. Elbows and knees rule supreme for strikes in my opinion, for my body makeup. Long limbed guys might not like this distance unless they are gumby folks like Royce Gracie. For clinch range, Muay Thai rules for striking mentality, Greco Roman wrestling owns for the grappler.

Between clinch range and hand striking range is a fuzzy area for shooting, as in doing a wrestling style single leg or double leg takedown and all of the variants between. Some people are great, explosive shooters and can come in hard and fast at KICKING distance and it's CURTAINS because the shoot can easily turn into a serious slam, which brings us to...

throws... generally executed at clinching distance, but you can be tricky and fake em out like the ol' they're running at you and you ball up, trippin them technique. Judo kicks ass here. Aikido is a whole different area. Nonetheless, it's tough to hit harder than the GROUND.

Grappling is the intimate transition between the clench and groundwork... sometimes it's a throw that gets you there, sometimes it's just gravity. Strikers want to ground and pound... turn the opponent into a puddle of piss and blood ASAP, not the best strategy for them, much better to stand up. Grapplers want to keep a super suction cup distance and go for submissions or superior positioning where they can demolish the other guy with more subtle ground and pound.

Effective cross between striking and grapping is ground and pound, integrating elbows of muay thai with ear slapping, biting , eye gouging, etc depending where you want to go with it.

Submissions are usually used when the opponent starts gassing or you are in a baaad situation and need an escape. break arm, heel, knee, choke em out, etc.

The key is to use the minimal amount of energy possible and flow from range to range distance-wise. The transitions are key when it comes to distance... and some people you will want to stay away from and pick apart, others, you will want to tear in half, depending on their style and body type vs. yours.

Then you have the aspect of timing. Best to have quick twitch muscles, whole different topic.

Then you have violence of action, commitments and feints.

Balance should ALWAYS be present, for this is where reaction comes from and where power develops.

not saying anyone before me is wrong, I just had to post this stuff cause it's been a while :D

have the predator mindset, not the prey.

cheers

[brass hammer]

i liked what KREPT sez'. timing is a huge part of it, i've always[for some reason] enjoyed good success once my opposition has COMMITTED to the ATTACK[punch,kick,bull-rush]

i would like to add something i KNOW to be very useful/a great help.

remain calm, cool! hell, i kinda start grinning when the GAMES ON.
once they[the enemy] commits, they are SINGULAR in physics[s.p.?]

some times when having too much fun,[ha!] i'll start talkin' ****, as i'm handing out an ass-whippin'[or heaven forbid, handed[1]]

now please don't think any less of me from this post, as i've renounced/reformed[trying to anyway]

ha! i had/have [1] buddy that when we got on the whiskey, we would go to bars we didn't drink at[regulary] just to start a fistfight[we thought we were having fun,everybody else thought we were just ass-holes,now i know we were just/are kunckle-heads/idiots]

[brass hammer]

now i'm not even drinkin'[today] and still feel like sharing this [1]little tussle

as i touched above on timing at crunch -time.

my 'bud' and i were drinkin' in a 'regular' waterin'-hole, it was late at night
and just him an me, the bar-maid, an this big bearded hairy dude[probably he'd go in the 260/6'2" price range, i'm 6' 175]

now you all know i'm a fairly strong supporter of the DALLAS COWBOYS,
well 'dude' was a packer-fan ,an started 'punkin'/running my 'boys' up the flag-pole[in a not so polite manner i might add!]

well, this fuzzed me up pretty good, an went on to express my point of view
on the packers, and there fans[him in particular]
well, the bar maid said i'm cut-off and had better leave, an my buddy is trying to get me to leave also!

fine, this place sucks as bad as the packers/fans sez' i and i'm leaving
with my BEER[1/2 EMPTY]
well hairy dude gets up an sez' to leave the beer also![ya! right, like he owned the joint,and i was gonna listen to him anyway!]

now this is where it gets good, as he lowers his head and bum-rushes me from about 20' away,bellowing like banshe[ha!]

hell, i let the ****er charge on in[all the while inverting that long-neck in my left hand 180degrees, letting the contents unto the floor, at my feet,a slight mis-calculation on my part, i soon found out]

when the time was just right, i came-up south outta DALLAS with a solid
right upper-cut square under his jaw,now this friends stopped his bull-rush
in his tracks as i was following through on that punch on my tip-toes[complete transfer]
now this only took seconds, if that, in conjuntion with the upper-cut, when i came back down on my feet, i whacked thatlong-neck right above the back of his right ear, now that staggard him pretty good[my ol' 1-2 combo, probably only took a second,maybe two]

but to my suprise, the big hairy[bleedin' bad from the head wound] bastard
although stunned,DID NOT GO DOWN!

well,[ha!] like a freakin' movie, i'm standing there with the broken bottle-neck in my hand[and like a freakin' movie, the millasecond of hushed silence
spoke volumes[the gasp of fear/terror from the bar-maid upon witnessing
it all,and me with a bottle-neck in my left-hand, the look of indecsion in bloody hair-ball dudes eyes,fear/terror,my buddy standing wide-eyed an 10'away]
well i ended the mexican stand -off by slinging the bottle neck against the block wall 30' away[ya,like in a freakin'movie it shattered into a hundred pieces]

this was starting to get good/way outta hand [ i HAD to go get/crack a beer
to complete this 'timing' story]
now i was wearing my motor-cross/flat-tracker boots[flat-soled,buckles up the sides, i had to remove the steel heel-caps, as they were way to slick
to wear out in the desert hunting/climbing rocks,etc.]
after slingin' the broken neck from my hand, like it was an evil creature,
dude,and i comenced to tie-up again[he damn sure kept his head-up THIS TIME!HA!]
i slipped on the beer/blood wet concrete floor, and went down with DUDE
on top of me,square on my chest, now knowing something about human nature[and the look in his eyes,spoke volumes] i knew he was fixin' to drive me like a nail, if i was to let him, so i intiated plan 'b' and stuck my 'v'for victory/ peace sign fingers straight up his air-intakes[i mean he had nostriles
like a horse] and stiff-armed his head straight up and back[belive me! his head followed his nose,ha!] well his counter was to dig his right thumb into my left eye, my counter, to his counter, to my employment of plan 'b'
was to roll my head to the left away from his right thumb, trying to dig me eye-ball out!

this dude was bleeding pretty good, all over my face/shirt, into my right and left ears[i found out later, with a q-tip ha!]
when i rolled my head to the left, THEN I SAW IT!

my 'buddy' crouched down low "indian-creepin" fixin' to field-goal kick dudes head for me!

now you can all 'color me crazy' because here i'm LOCKED IN MORTAL COMBAT an i see my buddy fixin' to help his brother out of a tight-**** situation, AND I START BUSTING-UP LAUGHING yelling GET- BACK! JERRY 'MOON-BEAM' BROWN[insert your own buddies name]

HE'S ALL MINE!!!!
well, i think this scared the holy-hell out 'dude' as the life just went out of him, when i started laughing my ass off upon seeing my buddy indian-creepin'
and i pushed him off me with my fingers stuck to the middle knuckles up his snozz!

AND COME TO FIND OUT, HE [DUDE] DID OWN THE ****IN' BAR![all of about [3] days before he 'met' wayne!

needless to say i was barred for life,from that waterin'-hole!

and NO, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY BOOGERS, AS I CHECKED THOUGHLY[and recall
thinkin' that my-self]

that was a sweet 'timing' post ,if i might say so myself! :beer:




:wavey:[my buddy is a 'card' carrying creek indian from oklahoma]

[krept]

LOFL great story

I can't even bear to read my post above, it was made after half a bottle of JD and a six pack... i'm STILL feeling it

[Aslan]

Basic skills covers a lot of territory.

Number one basic skill:

Understand the zones of combat. Know where those zones are in relation to you.

Kicks - many kicks are ranged weapons that are used from farther out than hand techniques. Learn to recognize where you are in relation to others in terms of "can they kick me?"

Hand techniques - punches, jabs, elbow strikes, grabs. CQB stuff. Recognize when people are close enough to use these techniques.

Just recognizing these two zones is important.

Now, I rank blocks and movement being incredibly important basic skills to have. Blocks generally fall into three categories:

Blocks
Parries
Strikes

Blocks, as the name implies will block a strike
Parries redirect the strike.
Strikes are attacking your opponent such that the path of the strike prevents their blow from landing.

All three types of blocks can be done with either the hands or the legs.

I love the "bend down and block this kick to your knee" posts.

Why not simply step to the side on a 45 degree angle (basically accomplished moving just one leg), pivoting at the same time, driving a fist into the floating ribs, while the other attacks either the arm or the head. (double fist is really good for these situations)?

Or you can step through the trailing leg, depending on timing, and break his ankle.

Any technique can be countered, any strike blocked.

The key is movement and staying fluid. I don't care if you've never trained formally. If you move, and move well, you will do well.

You can practice the step and pivot I described very simply. Step back with your right leg, so that it is back and further to the right. both feet should now be parallel, pointing to your left. Your shoulders are parallel with your feet. Strike with your left while pivoting on the balls of your feet. Your stance should now be reversed, with your feet pointing to your right, and your left leg is now the back leg.

try it a few times and see what kind of energy you can deliver into the punch. It's easy to move in and out of this stance, to transition to other types of stances, etc. (Even Andy's invincible cat-stance.) But most importantly, you can move from this stance <- movement is most important.

Fun stuff.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

I love the "bend down and block this kick to your knee" posts.

Why not simply step to the side on a 45 degree angle (basically accomplished moving just one leg), pivoting at the same time, driving a fist into the floating ribs, while the other attacks either the arm or the head. (double fist is really good for these situations)?

Or you can step through the trailing leg, depending on timing, and break his ankle.

I got a laugh over that, too. Simply raising the leg nullifies the invincible technique, particularly if combined with a quick hop forward to aid in jamming.

I really think zones are overrated. You're either at the edge of effective range, or in a clinch. With forward drive and an assaultive mindset, those kicking/boxing/trapping ranges are bridged in an eyeblink. Its really only when you've got 2 people who want to spar, not close-and-destroy, that they persist.

[Aslan]

You're right, but I was thinking more in terms of "you and I start having words" I should know where we are in relation to each other in case things escalate.

Once the fighting starts, it comes down to where you are comfortable. I tend to be a CQB in your face kind of fighter. Especially if you can out reach me.

This changes if you are shorter and built with a very low center of gravity. Then I may use a bit more range on you.

I'm probably not describing this properly....

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

I think I get what you're talking about just fine. I just don't really see it happening without a serious disparity in ability. Someone who's skilled and/or athletic will get in on you fast if they want to, and its hard to keep them at range.

Its also amusing to me that the "cat stance" is touted as being good for situations like that, when its actually one of the best ways to stand if you want to make sure you get knocked on your ass with the first solid contact.

:dunce:

[Aslan]

The cat stance is in reality nothing more than a transition that someone "froze" to illustrate balance and to expose a posture for "beauty's sake".

No one would actually hold a cat stance in combat (unless they wanted their ass kicked). But, if you break it down, you move through several different cat stances (front, back) with just about any technique you do...

It's this lack of understanding and stupid boasts that reveal the truth behind his black belt claims...

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

No one would actually hold a cat stance in combat (unless they wanted their ass kicked). But, if you break it down, you move through several different cat stances (front, back) with just about any technique you do...

Well, that I certainly agree with.

And I don't necessarily doubt the black belt. I saw a local Take My Dough black belt just the other week. I doubt he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag if you gave him an Exacto knife, but his creds were legit.

[krept]

I think the concept of ranges is a good way to envision which techniques are appropriate for the situation. Obviously it's not "I'm in the clinch zone, let's see what techniques I can use" but more like gauging the predicted distance and using a thai elbow instead of throwing that right cross that may connect too early and not be effective.

So many variables. An intent to strike usually leaves your center of balance higher, vulnerable to shoots. An intent to shoot usually leaves your center of balance lower where you can get smoked by leg kicks and jabs.

There really are only areas that matter... your sphere of influence and the other guy's.

At 6' and 280 I'm definitely a CQB banger. I love the clinch range, friggin HATE a stiff jab... have to jab back at the jab to get around. Short legs built like tree trunks good for explosive movement but NOT great for kicking at all - maybe a gut kick at best. Long arms make for good jabbing but my favorite is groundfighting, gettin ahold of a limb and applying violent TORQUE or tying both arms up to get free face shots. Love ankle locks on the big guys, love chokes too. :D

I've been talking to this guy and he's probably going to move back around my area near the end of the year. I'm currently looking around for places where we can roll as he's willing to teach once a week until he moves out... awesome stuff. There's just nowhere worth training where I'm at.

http://www.westvalleyview.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=16207&SectionID=10&SubSectionID=5&S=1

cheers

[andy]

I"ve had dozens of guys TRY to get in on my cat stance. All got kicked or eye gouged. There's never BEEN any grappling, at ALL. Grappling is for when you can't SEE, when the floor surface is slippery, when some sort of clothing restricts you, or for when you feel like being a nice guy (or stabbed slashed by the knife you didn't know was present, or clubbed by the buddy you didn't realize was part of the deal, etc.

[andy]

Grapplers just never have gone up against a REALLY fast kicker, or they'd never DREAM of trying it.

[RIKA]

Grapplers just never have gone up against a REALLY fast kicker, or they'd never DREAM of trying it.

With your bad knees and back, a girl scout could take you out easily. Sorry but you are NOT the man you pretend to be.

RIKA

[Aslan]

Grapplers just never have gone up against a REALLY fast kicker, or they'd never DREAM of trying it.

This just belies your lack of experience and training. It is total BS and you are living in a fantasy if you believe this.

If all you have to rely on is kicks to avoid grappling, you are finished before you even begin...

And I guarantee you ain't that fast a kicker.

Don't bother with the challenge, you won't show up anyway and we both know it.

Must suck to have lost all credibility.

:devil:

[John in AR]

If kicking (especially ‘flying’ kicking) is the best approach in a conflict, why then have the Gracie family won the ‘ultimate fighting’ matches for years now…? They’re primarily grapplers (JiuJitsu); and they’ve been coming out on top for a long time.

I studied a combination of Northern & Southern Chinese kung fu years ago, and it was a very good style, including a lot of low & high kicking. Personally, I really like the idea of wrist & forearm strength. In my limited experience, most fights are decided by what happens with the hands & arms, not the feet & legs.

Part of the equation is subject to the individual as well; if you’re fighting someone half your size, keep them away and you won’t get hurt. If you’re the one that’s half the size, you’ve got to get inside. Only advantage to letting someone smaller “inside” is if you’ve got good strength, and you get your hands on them. That’s why I work a lot on wrist & forearms; I’m usually the bigger one involved, and it’s generally better (and certainly less prosecutable) to control and restrain them rather than wail & flail on them, if possible.

The hyena or leopard can laugh at and run in circles around the gorilla all he wants, but once the gorilla has his hands on him, the leopard’s a goner.

[krept]

well, the typical argument about "death touch" techniques is that the people that know them can't fight with them because the result would be... death. So that's why they are never in mixed martial arts competitions. (whatever)

then there are the commando guys that rip throats out, eye gouge, bite, grab balls, etc. I get their point (they don't fight in competitions) because people would get mauled. Again, this is understandable but as I think I mentioned before, many techniques put you in the position to execute "dirty moves" rather than all out animal-ninja-commando style flailing.

Now when we talk about "fast kickers," whom exactly are you referring to? I'd say some of the BEST (as in lethal, not necessarily FAST) kickers are either in Thailand fighting Muay Thai or in K-1 full contact competitions. Yes, these aren't the commando guy or the guys that spent their whole life training in the monastary on Mount Fuji... so, who exactly are we talking about?

In UFC1, this badass Shotokan guy got smoked by Gracie. How about Lee Van Cleef? Hell, grappling happens ALL the time and this is why some of the K1 guys have a problem transitioning to MMA and vice versa. K1 guys get taken down and are basically on "defend" mode until they can get on their feet and MMA guys get KTFO'd because they can't really tie up well. In this context, however, the MMA guys are closer to reality because there are less rules... yes it is LIMITED rules but hell, how many training partners are you going to go through practicing eye gouges?

So back to the fast kicks... who is a fast kicker that you think would waste a MMAer? I mean... think about it... one of the FASTEST guys I've ever heard of... Bruce Lee... even studied groundfighting... ain't that weird? I believe it even shows some Gracie style stuff (could just be Judo relics) in one of his books... Tao of JKD?

Most of the time the guys that kick fast are the guys that hit fast... the leaner, taller type guys. Not too sure who is light heavy/heavyweight that is a "fast kicker" but I'm fairly confident that if he goes against someone who has done wrestling for a while (Couture, Lindland, Hughs ETC.) it would be no problem to take out... think about it... these guys have EXPLOSIVE shoots and are low to the ground, shooting from outside of kicking range.


Don't get me wrong... fast kicking is awesome, a great way to keep someone away from you but it's just too limited an arsenal to rely upon. If you talk about grappling when it's slippery, what about kicking? What about if you've got heavy boots on or tight pants :D?

Fast kicks are not the canned AR of the unarmed combat world. It's just one tool in a box of MANY and all the tools are free; a good martial artist should know all of them but rely on those techniques that he or she is built for.

[gripper]

Good post;I like it,Krept.....definitely more articulate than my usual "catch as catch can"...

[brass hammer]

i'll 'share' another lil' tussle i enjoyed[drinking]

i had stopped[to cut the dust] before going home[still daylight] at another waterin' hole [1] afternoon, and had maybe [2] johnnie-walkers ,when this dude[about 5"11"/250, about 35 y.o.] came back into the bar ALL PISSED-OFF[i found out later that he'd left before i got there, after threatin' to whip/beat up EVERYBODY IN THE JOINT![ha! he was wearing short-pants, for crying out loud] and proceeded to rant/rave anybody that steps out the front door he's gonna stomp the **** out of them[well i've always been the inquisitive type, [ha, and never afraid of any body in short-pants,,, unless it is a bicycle COP]
so i proceed to go out the front door to find out just what this crazy bastard's problem is/was with everybody inside, and wham, ass-hole pops ME
UP-SIDE MY LEFT EAR [well FRIENDS it's ON!]
the tag/punch he threw wasn't much, and i start 'buzz-saw ' punches about his head/face, he wants NOTHING to do with that and breaks/backs-off about 8'-10' gives me the 'hard' look[sizing me up no doubt] then lowers his head and bum-rushes me[WHAT THE ****S UP WITH THESE BIG GUYS THINKING I'M WANTING TO LET THEM TACKLE ME]

well, this was fun,an i WAS grinning , when he came in i grabbed his head and while kickin' back,leaped into the air almost vertical and gave 'dude the PRETTIEST HEAD-SNAP YOU'D EVER WANT TO SEE
my chest on to the back of his shoulder blades ,and drove/rode mister 'ass-whipper' straight down into to concrete[his momentum, my wieght]

he was done after that, but i did grab a fist ful of curly-blond hair and raise his head about 4"-6" off the concrete and give him another 'short' head-snap
just for g.p./him being an ASS-HOLE[by then a crowd did see that, and i thought i'd better LEAVE]

i should share that i wrestled [3] years in jr.high, and varsity lettered[4]
in high school[and could 'pin' alot of other teams heavy-wieghts, my own included]


thanks friends, thought i'd share!

:wavey:

[brass hammer]

[AFTER,[2] GLENLIVET'S]
the mention of the gracies[brazil]

made me make this post!, have yoU ever watched them wrestle?

with-out the ["gia"/"kung-fu"] SMOCK !.......they are pretty weak[in my view]

as THEY use the wardrobe to facilatate the choke-out's/submissions


i KNOW i'm already out on a limb, but i think 'ken shamrock' was the bad-ass compared to the gracies[just my view]


:smash:

[andy]

so what? That is silly assed crap in the ring. Try your grappling against a gold badge Moo Duk Kwan man, and you'll be laying their holding your broken leg. They aint willing to bust each others legs and balls for a lousy 50k purse. Of course Bruce learned it ALL. Why not? He wanted to TEACH, be in the MOVIES, etc. I know a lot of grappling stuff, too. Can YOU kick a basketball net? :-)

[RIKA]

Can YOU kick a basketball net? :-)

I'll tell you if I am ever attacked by a basketball net. (the devil made me say that)

RIKA :D

[Aslan]

so what? That is silly assed crap in the ring. Try your grappling against a gold badge Moo Duk Kwan man, and you'll be laying their holding your broken leg. They aint willing to bust each others legs and balls for a lousy 50k purse. Of course Bruce learned it ALL. Why not? He wanted to TEACH, be in the MOVIES, etc. I know a lot of grappling stuff, too. Can YOU kick a basketball net? :-)

I've got $1,000.00 cash that says you can't kick a regulation height basketball net. (without a trampoline or other assistance.)

With your knee and back problems?

You are a joke.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

so what? That is silly assed crap in the ring. Try your grappling against a gold badge Moo Duk Kwan man, and you'll be laying their holding your broken leg. They aint willing to bust each others legs and balls for a lousy 50k purse. Of course Bruce learned it ALL. Why not? He wanted to TEACH, be in the MOVIES, etc. I know a lot of grappling stuff, too. Can YOU kick a basketball net? :-)

They've already grappled against Muay Thai guys and won. You know, the ones who regularly beat the **** out of Korean kicking stylists. The very fact that you think someone can't get past a kick and hammer the **** out of a kicker shows that you've done nothing outside of a static training environment against a bunch of other poorly-trained yokels.

Some days, I really hope you know what a joke you paint yourself out to be, as you have another puff of "da chronic" and a laugh and head back to the keyboard. Other days, I think you're utterly serious, and that's a very sad thing.

[John in AR]

...Can YOU kick a basketball net? :-)

No, but I can kick the top of a door frame, and can do it without even breaking stride while walking down a hallway. That's 6'10"; about the equivalent of kicking a man 7'8" or so, in the chin.

Doesn’t make it a good idea in a fight, or even relevant at all to fighting.

[Aslan]

It's clear, that like much of Andy's other "knowledge", it sounds good, but he's never actually tried to apply any of it in the real world.

I like how it has come down to a "My marital art is the best in the world, it makes me invincible! All other martial arts pale in comparison."

pretty much standard boilerplate stuff you hear at most schools. The lower belts tend to eat that stuff up.

The upper belts learn reality and understand that just about ALL martial arts incorporate similar moves and concepts. (The human body can only move in so many ways.)

It's also the comments like that which make me suspect he is about a yellow belt in rank. (Or he got suckered by a belts for bucks school.)

:devil:

[krept]

LOL NO I can't kick the top of a baseball net, nor the top of a door and I feel none the worse about it. High kicks aren't my thing.

Unless I'm wrong (and even then, not by much) the farthest you should be able to kick should be a little higher than a waist level side kick. Everything else, deviates further from the midline of the sphere of influence, so a higher kick is not going to reach as far and leaves you on one point of balance for a longer time.

Maybe there is something special about MDK, I'm open to it, but with the training regimens that the Thai guys go through, I'd say they're pretty fkn bad ass and they STILL miss and sometimes fall on their ass trying to head kick. I'd like to visit a good MDK school and see what they are about. I'm not into "dojo challenges" but am more than willing to have a friendly full contact sparring session with them. Even if I lose, I learn.

[krept]

Brass Hammer, another good story man!

The Gracies do a LOT of no-gi stuff, in fact, that's primarily what they teach to law enforcement guys, anti-rape people and to their students that do mixed martial arts. Royce (the guy in the UFC) is really good with the gi and used it as a "third hand" because it would allow him to grip better by absorbing the sweat from his opponent, also works good with some chokes. His other family members Royler, Rickson, Ryan, etc. all fight without gi.

I some vids with challenge matches of them fighting no-gi. Some really good stuff... they can certainly lay heat on without the "smock" LOL

[gripper]

last tim,e someone tried to bum's rush me in a bar(lotta years ago),I just flipped the table over in front of him;he tripped and Icaught him by the left ear(my right hand) and a hand-full of his hair(black like mine),cranked his head around and asked him what he thought he was doing...he WAS kinda suprised,since I'm lucky tio see 150 most days;he had a good 40 or so pounds and some height on me.I guess he felt I'd either freeze and take a beating,or turn and run.As it was I was just sober enogh to nothurt anything but his sense of condfidence.I ghuess if I was either scared,or drunker( by a little bit more)something permanent could have happened.Hell,I've not been able to drink alcohol since 1998(medical and personel),so maybe clean and sober works for me.WTF,I could be worse off.

[Aslan]

Had a guy grab me from behind once. Did a real simple move that I could probably teach anyone here, including Andy.

Basically involved pivoting. The arm on the side that is the direction you are pivoting to comes up and makes a big circle. This is to clear his arms and create separation.

As you continue to pivot and step, the trailing arm makes a small circle and contacts the back of his head. Your other arm should be over the top of his arm.

Do not grab with either hand. bring your lead arm down while striking the back of the head with the other arm.

If you do this right, two things happen: You give him a real good shot to the back of the head (palm strike) and you end up putting him face first into a table or the ground.

If you're feeling really nasty, continue the pivot and take a large step on a 45 away from the guy, while still keeping his arm trapped. You will dislocate his shoulder.

This is all done as a continuous motion. You don't pause or stop at any point until you are done. Should he counter this, and like any technique it can be countered, the fact that you keep moving allows you to set up for something else.

I broke the guys nose and a couple teeth on a table.

There are variations on this like: you can use the elbow of the trailing arm to attack the rotator cuff of the arm you have trapped, but that requires a little more skill on the pivot and timing.

If you play with this a little, I think the application becomes clear. It's really simple and doesn't require tons of skill.

And it works even if the other guy is bigger and stronger than you are.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

I think you'd have a hard time pulling that one off against a tight grab and a momentum disparity. Perhaps its the way I'm picturing it.

Why the hell did he grab you, anyway? Most guys won't really grab another man like that unless they're looking to toss him on the floor, batter him against a solid object, or hold him while their buddy beats him. The grab-and-drag scenario is more common in rapes. :eek:

[Aslan]

Well, I can't claim innocence in the matter. Words had been exchanged earlier - don't remember why. I'm sure it was stupid.

It wasn't a tight grab or a bear hug type grab. It was more of a "I'm going to turn you around so I can hit you in the face kind of grab..."

Think of a hand grabbing the top of a shoulder. Which ever shoulder is grabbed is the direction you turn. (If both are grabbed, then it doesn't matter which way you turn.)

Sorry if it wasn't clear earlier.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

Ok. That makes a lot more sense as to the application.

[brass hammer]

i thought it was a cool post , but from the greco-roman style, [su-plex] it's BAD news for the [1] being grabbed.
another is to inhale [instinctivly] then exhale, aNd drop [like a ton of wet ****]
while turning into the 'hugger' and cracking your elbow into his balls[a hard stomp on the foot/instep of 'hugger'should preclude[?is that a word?] this manuver, although if the 'hugger' is strong/fast you could end up with a broken neck.
we've practiced it just foolin' around, and you should try to lean forward
by 'pooching'your ass into the 'huggers' groin area[i know it sounds gay]
to KNOW where the target for YOUR ELBOW IS!

hell , back-side bear hugs are bad news for a smaller '
'hugiee'



thanks aslan[did the 'dude' send you his dental bill?] :evilgrin:

[andy]

good kickers don't miss against untrained opponents. They can TELL the guy that they are going to kick his right HAND, and there's nothing he can do to PREVENT it. :-) You dont have to fight trained men, unless YOU are the asshole.

[andy]

I didn't say nobody can get past a kick, but only TRAINED men can, and they just get eye gouged, nuts ripped off, etc. grapplers are in a BAD way against more than one man, or against a weapon. Being light on your feet, fast in and out, etc, is a LOT safer, as long as you ALSO know ground technique. Seems pretty stupid to me to be SLOW with a gun, in the USA. In other countries, guns aren't much of an issue, but HERE they sure are, and to NOT train extensively with THE close quarters weapon is just stupid. Hand to hand is for when you feel like being a nice guy, or when you've been stupid enough to not HAVE your pistol.

[Wylycoyte]

I didn't say nobody can get past a kick, but only TRAINED men can
Or strong, athletic, aggressive people...real shortage of those in the under 30 age bracket.


, and they just get eye gouged, nuts ripped off

While they're knocking you're going ass over teakettle your head's bouncing off the concrete ..sure.


, etc. grapplers are in a BAD way against more than one man, or against a weapon. Being light on your feet, fast in and out, etc, is a LOT safer, as long as you ALSO know ground technique.

Glad you came around to our point of view, as that's what we've been saying the whole time. :D

Don't forget clinch fighting, too. Tie ups don't just occur on the ground.


Seems pretty stupid to me to be SLOW with a gun, in the USA. In other countries, guns aren't much of an issue, but HERE they sure are, and to NOT train extensively with THE close quarters weapon is just stupid. Hand to hand is for when you feel like being a nice guy, or when you've been stupid enough to not HAVE your pistol.

Well, since we're shifting topics in midstream, hand to hand is often for GETTING to your pistol after you've been ambushed. Other than that, no argument.

[krept]

unarmed combat is the basic need for everyone following the path of the warrior

if you can always count on having a knife or having a club or having a pistol or longarm with ammunition, fine. that's good.

I'm better at wrecking than I am shooting, but that doesn't mean I'm going to shoot until slidelock or forget about the blade before warring.

BTW, lots of grappling puts you in the BEST position for repeated ball shots, etc.

[andy]

you couldn't do it STILL, when I've had little practice for over 20 years, and I'm 30 lbs overweight. You TRY charging me, I'll put your face all over the CEILING.

[Wylycoyte]

you couldn't do it STILL, when I've had little practice for over 20 years, and I'm 30 lbs overweight. You TRY charging me, I'll put your face all over the CEILING.

What, are you going to threaten to meet us at McDonald's and then not show up?

Your comments were lucid and mostly on target in the last post. I was hoping that was the start of a trend. Oh, well.

[krept]

You TRY charging me, I'll put your face all over the CEILING.

LOFL man you have a way with words sometimes, I'm gonna use that line on my friends.

As I said, it's all about the complete package. A decade ago, there were many people who truly felt their striking ability was the Real Ultimate Power and nobody could penetrate their defenses.

I don't care who is the biggest badass and I don't want to get into a fight, I'm just saying... it's good to be well rounded.

cheers

[Wylycoyte]

This is the only Real Ultimate Power!

www.realultimatepower.net

[SatCong]

Well, I did not read every thread so forgive me if this answer is redundant.
Basic unarmed defence. My initial training was military and over thirty years ago, but that training, apparently remains sufficient. 8 of the last 11 years I moonlighted as a bouncer in a local blues club, so there is some fairly recent usage of said skills.

Here's how they shake out for me:

1) avoid confrontation, walk away.

2) learn how to escape from any hold, if you learn a circular (round) form set of techniques, it will be hard for the strongest adversary to hold onto you, and you never are finished moving-one movement blends into the next.

3) If your opportunity to leave has evaporated, or if you have lost the opportunity to escape someone's grasp, learn a few basic techniques (there are very many) that allow your attacker to see the wisdom in letting go of you.

You can take this in any direction, from here, but your main focus should be survival and prioritizing your next moves.

These are very basic, but naturally lend themselves to subsequent moves based on the fluidity of the situation.
SatCong
PS -- Do what you have to do to legally rectify the "unarmed" part of your self defence strategy.

[Ratsinthegravyredux]

You TRY charging me, I'll put your face all over the CEILING.

Oh, ****...that's some funny ass crap. :crying:

andy, it's a good thing they have rubber walls in that place. Now, if you'd just stop eating the rubber sheets, it'd go much more smoothly for you. :twohammer

[Aslan]

I notice Andy is good at describing the end-result of his ninja-like skills. But I'm yet to see him even describe a single basic technique he'd use to accomplish this. (Well, beyond "I'll kick you so hard...")

Charge you? Are you envisioning someone running at you from far away, or charging you from a couple of feet away?

Eye gouge? Nut grab? Ok, but just like your unstoppable kicks (which I see you're starting to realize are stoppable) they can be countered.

Your threats are empty because: You've failed to show up for any of your challenges, and it's clear you are not a threat to anyone. You talk big, but that's it.

:devil:

[gripper]

WTF???Is this part of the board becomming his"canned-10 inchCAR15"du jour??If your going to make clueless,insulting and threatening postsAND never actually show up or follow thru,I don't get what Andy gets out of this;being caught up repeatedly in half-assed posturing CAN'T be good for his ego....what am I not getting here??
conditioning and self defense iS something I'm seru
ious abouit for a number of reasons.I don't threaten,nor do I bully.I f I know enough to help out with a question and post something articulate enough to NOT sound punchy,I cvonsider that to be a good thing.If I don't,I wo'nt make up $hit;especially when(like crappy handloading) people can get hurt.
Andy;start training again;drop the BS and you'd be amazed at how things go.There is some good info and approaches to be had here.Defacating upstream of your water supply does NOBODY any good.