service cartridges

[GBullet]

Think about how you pick a handgun. One of the first thoughts is probably, "What caliber should I get?" Then you look at the choices. Reading some of the articles and "future handgun protocols" that have appeared in the last six months sure does suggest that the U.S. Army is rethinking not only the M9 and M11 pistols, but the 9x19mm too.

Lately, I've been pondering what is best handgun caliber for the Army (and Marines). I came up with these candidates:

.38 Spl
9mm
.357 SIG
.357 Mag
.40 S&W
.45 GAP
.45 ACP

Since the Army will not consider a revolver, the .38 Spl and .357 Mag can be tossed out. That's funny because the .38 Spl becames widely used by the military since WWII. Four inch .38 Spl's were extremely popular for pilot survival guns and USAF security. "Tunnel rats" and many other soldiers in Vietnam carried some kind of .38 revolver. I've even seen S&W M10's that had been fitted with threaded, 3 1/2 inch barrels and suppressors for use by tunnel rats.

So, now we're down to:

9mm
.357 SIG
.40 S&W
.45 GAP
.45 ACP

The .357 SIG is great with JHP's, but offers little over a 9mm in FMJ form. Armor is rated to stop either handguns and SMG's, or rifles. A little bit better armor penetration doesn't count for much. It needs to be a lot to count. So, out it goes.

The 9mm is a time proven classic and pretty much a world standard. Despite its merits, a lot of soldiers seem to be unsure of it. Very few soldiers are handgun experienced prior to entering service. As a result, they likely have zero experience with any cartridge other than the 9mm and have not been influenced by the pro-.45 crowd. This lends credibility to their concerns about 9mm FMJ effectiveness, or lack thereof.

If the Army decides to leave the 9mm, they still have:

.40 S&W
.45 GAP
.45 ACP

The .45 GAP seems to be an excellent cartridge. It's actually a .43, but don't ask, don't tell. ;)

Even if its the best cartridge in the world, it lacks the track record of the others. The Army may consider it, but it's a long shot.

That leaves us with:

.40 S&W
.45 ACP

In FMJ or JHP, there's not a lot of difference between these two. The .45 ACP has a century of good performance. The .40 S&W fits into 9mm pistols while offering lots of shots.

The deciding factor may come down to emotion. If a given caliber instills confidence in the troops, that could outweigh any negatives.

[andy]

They might as well just stick with what they've got. No more use than soldiers usually put a pistol, no more HITTING than they can do with it, with ball ammo, nothing is going to make any noticable improvement.

Only an idiot would bother to silence a revolver. The flashgap means that it will still be just as loud. Only fools consider a .38 revolver, with ball ammo, to amount to a crap as a manstopper.

[GBullet]

I've read speculation that one of the new .17-.22 calibered bottlenecked cartridges might be chosen. Most people refer to the 5.7x28mm FN FiveSeven pistol specifically.

I don't think that this is very likely to happen. The tiny bores of these calibers could complicate user maintenance. After all, you can always use a ball point pen and wad of toilet tissue to clean a .45 ACP in a pinch.

[Aslan]

Only an idiot would bother to silence a revolver. The flashgap means that it will still be just as loud. Only fools consider a .38 revolver, with ball ammo, to amount to a crap as a manstopper.

except, of course for those revolvers that actually sealed the gap when the trigger was pulled.

:devil:

[tuna]

Does anyone know just how loud / quiet a suppressed revolver would be? They had to be of some effect, I'm just wondering how well they worked. I understand that the gas coming from between cylinder and barrel would make some noise, but I've always been curious as to how much. A .22 short without a suppressor is still pretty quiet, so a suppressed .38 might not be too bad as long as you don't have the expectation of being completely silent. When you think about it, even a bow makes a little noise.

[Chippathingy]

A lot...as in whats the point in trying it

[Chippathingy]

Ever seen a pic of what the flash coming out of the cyclinder gap looks like?
If you find one, and it speaks for itself.

[Chippathingy]

cylinder sp.

[RIKA]

The army tested a suppressed revolver in Vietnam. It was used by the tunnel rats for a while. It was made up from a S&W N frame, in 44 cal, and had a short barrel. The ammo was totally encapsulated. The primer exploded powder creating gas that pushed a plug forward the length of the cartridge case but the plug stopped at the end of the case. The lead bullet which was seated in front of the plug in the case was propelled forward at several hundred fps. Since the explosion was contained inside the case there was no noise - at least not much.

Don't remember why the army dropped testing.

RIKA

[Chippathingy]

The one I recall had a long rolled up mylar tube behind the bullet that shot several feet out of the bore and had to be torn out before the next round was fired.This came in 12ga as well.
Another, the one your speaking of I believe, and a sheet steel type interior bladder that popped just past the case mouth. It was discontinued becuase they could never get the rounds hot enough to be consistantly lethal. At least the Spec Ops guys weren't happy with it.
Ruger and several other custom class2/3 hosues have made revolvers with teflon or silicon washers as part of the cartridge that slid forward sealing the gap as well.
None of them really caught on.

[Chippathingy]

"had a sheet steel tube" sp.
jesus , I cant type anymore

[Terry G]

The army tested a suppressed revolver in Vietnam. It was used by the tunnel rats for a while. It was made up from a S&W N frame, in 44 cal, and had a short barrel. The ammo was totally encapsulated. The primer exploded powder creating gas that pushed a plug forward the length of the cartridge case but the plug stopped at the end of the case. The lead bullet which was seated in front of the plug in the case was propelled forward at several hundred fps. Since the explosion was contained inside the case there was no noise - at least not much.

Don't remember why the army dropped testing.

RIKAI didn't know that. I remember the tunnel rats using .45's with some kind of supressor and I remember seeing several S&W revolvers with supressors that were "field expedients". I thought about the noise coming from the flash gap also, but I guess any reduction in noise in the tunnels was appreciated. Are there any pictures that you know of of the revolver and ammunition? Good posts RIKA and Chippathingy!

[Magnum88C]

Well, the vast majority of escaping gasses come from the muzzle, not the barrel/cylinder gap. I Imagine it would render the revolver still loud but not quite so deafening.

[84 C4]

What about 10mm Auto? I hear it's one of the best manstoppers around.

[Wylycoyte]

What about 10mm Auto? I hear it's one of the best manstoppers around.


According to whom, and for what reasons?

[84 C4]

http://home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/10fbi.htm

[GBullet]

Great link, 84 C4!

Yes, the 10mm is one of the more effective calibers available in an auto. But...with FMJ bullets, the 10mm doesn't offer much over the .40 S&W. Also, the 10mm is long and doesn't fit 9mm sized pistols in the way that the .40 S&W does. Realistically, a 10mm pistol will be a single stack. As a single stack, the 10mm pistol must compete against its .45 ACP equivalent. Pistols chambered for 10mm typically have 1/3 to 2/3 of the usable life that their .45 ACP versions have.

[John in AR]

Being stuck with "non-expanding" bullets, I'd think a flat-nosed .45acp like Hornady's old "230-grain flatpoint" would bear consideration. I used to shoot a ton of cast-lead copies of that bullet from my 1911's (7-8 thousand a year), and it worked better than normal round-nose fmj's on most everything from bowling pins to possums & armadillos.

Winchester's "BEB" is basically the same profile, but has exposed lead. (And is seriously under-powered, imo.)

Whether in .45 or a smaller 9mm caliber, a flat-point bullet would help increase shock over a normal fmj.

[andy]

I shot a lot of critters with swc's, of various calibers, until velocities were over 1000 fps, no real difference was nothicable on flesh and blood. Glock's 10mm is a double stack, I believe, and since there's several double stack .45's, around, no reason it can't be done with the considerably "slimmer" 10mm. Double Tap's 135 gr jhp, at 1600 fps in a 4", is the best 'standard" ammo available. It's loaded a bit too hot for ccw gun use and best controlability, though. Too bad there's no 100 gr .10mm jhp. At 1700 fps in a 4", it would be great, as far as standard loads and jhp's go.

[andy]

like the worthless, feeble, antiquated before it even saw service Nagant? :-) Go away, sonny, you are so far out of your league that you are drowning.

[Garand]

Excellent link 84, thanks. I was very surprised at the lack of effectiveness of the Winchester Silver Tips.