fist, 3" from 12" pine board, hung on a string

[andy]

will STILL break the board with a punch, and NO pulling it backwards first, either. That kind of "short power" comes from PROPERLY practicing the beginning and ending move of each kata, and each series of basic practice moves. (double punch, at belt height, moving only 6". ) Few people, including many "instructors", don't have a CLUE what that "movement" is supposed to be doing for you. :-) I had to ask Moon, as I had to ask hundreds of other questions. Everybody else just did as they were told, and thus, learned much less.

[Wylycoyte]

It's a fairly simple motor movement that can be taught in an afternoon by anyone familiar with wing chun or a variety of other martial arts systems.

What's your point?

[RIKA]

Now andy is pretending to be Beatrice Kiddo, The Bride from Kill Bill vol 2. She learned that 3" punch from her master and used it to good advantage when she was buried alive in the wooden coffin.

Good try andy but it won't float.

RIKA

[Wylycoyte]

Despite my numerous vows of secrecy to Ancient Masters up a mountaintop deep in the Sierras, I'll spill the beans on the secret punch:

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen/oneinchpunch.html

[krept]

Lee kicked ass with the 3" punch.

http://www.lanzasmartialarts.com/_borders/influe2.jpg

that is a cap from a video of him demonstating it. It seemed to me the proper techique comes from a temporary "locking" of the muscles all the way to the soles of your feet and shifting your center. Kind of like a good hook involves a twist of the hips, but this is more forward instead of all torquing.

In kung fu, etc. they would say the chi is channeled from the earth and through the fist.

Either way, not sure how "kata" comes into play. That's a bunch of "if this, then thats" put together in a flow. Did Lee even have kata in JKD??

[RIKA]

Fascinating Wyly but the link seems to indicate that it will only work on flesh and blood.

GK says, "fist, 3" from 12" pine board, hung on a string will STILL break the board with a punch"

Does the punch work on boards too? That close?

RIKA

[krept]

hey, I would have got that out first but I had to look for a good photo ;)

funny how it's kinda along the lines what I was saying.

[krept]

I'm not sure it will wok on boards because from what I remember seeing it relies more on a "pushing"/penetrating aspect than it does a whipping or snapping motion. If the board were held like the generic board breakers do, sure I could see it. Hung from a string? I don't know about that.

(edit, now when I think about the difference between the two - flesh and wood... the demonstration could have been made more of a push because, well... if it would have broken a hanging board it certainly would have broken ribs before the guy was knocked on his butt. So it could very well have been a "diluted" version for that reason).

cheers

[Wylycoyte]

Fascinating Wyly but the link seems to indicate that it will only work on flesh and blood.

GK says, "fist, 3" from 12" pine board, hung on a string will STILL break the board with a punch"

Does the punch work on boards too? That close?

RIKA


They're dead wrong if they say that. I'll have to check. Anyway, it's a quick shock if done right, and I have no doubt you could bust a pine board. I've seen 6 year old kids bust a pine board, albeit not freehanging.

[Wylycoyte]

Either way, not sure how "kata" comes into play. That's a bunch of "if this, then thats" put together in a flow. Did Lee even have kata in JKD??

Kata is movement training, pure and simple. If someone thinks its just, "if this, then that" then they have a poor understanding of it.

Since Lee had already mastered a number of forms, he wouldn't have needed to practice them much. Once you get across the river, the canoe isn't all that necessary. I will ask this, though...where do you think he got the skill and understanding that he did?

I'm fairly sure you can get a very good understandig of the same concepts of movement and balance through proper drills, but I've yet to see them taught in a truly systematic way. The kung fu systems are pretty good about that. I'd rate some of the silat I've seen pretty highly that way, too, and I'd attirbute that to their practice of djurus. Aikido makes a big deal out of teaching proper movement, but I've yet to see anything that impressed me the way good kung fu does. I've seen a few interesting drills out of the ROSS system, too. I'd like to explore that further.

Note: having graceful and balanced movement doesn't mean that you won't get KFO if you climb into the ring with a badass.

[RIKA]

They're dead wrong if they say that. I'll have to check. Anyway, it's a quick shock if done right, and I have no doubt you could bust a pine board. I've seen 6 year old kids bust a pine board, albeit not freehanging.

Just want to qualify that I don't think I saw wood mentioned. I'm going to have to check out this MA stuff closely. I want to learn; all I need is time and money. :D

RIKA

[Wylycoyte]

Just want to qualify that I don't think I saw wood mentioned. I'm going to have to check out this MA stuff closely. I want to learn; all I need is time and money. :D

RIKA

Don't do it, Rika! Its worse than crack! :nuts:

[Aslan]

The 3" punch must be something Andy just discovered. It's old news. Ving Tsung (Wing Chung) is big on this punch.

I think it's funny how in one thread he'll brag about his fully chambered punch and then tout the 3" punch in another.

Being rooted is key. We prefer to do it from a reverse hip stance, which if done properly brings all the shoulder and back muscles into play and is very effective.

The stance boils down to left foot is forward, right hand strikes. (or vice versa)

The strike can also be done from a neutral stance, but you will get more energy if more muscles are used properly.

I really like the Silat styles and agree on Good Kung Fu. (Unfortunately, seems like many of the Kung Fu schools are being turned into the belts for bucks schools that TKD has primarily become)

KunTao Silat, my style, is a mixture of Southern Kung Fu and Indonesian Silat. The system I learned was the Lieu family system.

if you are curious about it, do a search on William Reeders, Arthur Sykes, and Joe Salomone. The latter two were who I studied under.

Master Salomone still does seminars from time to time.

Kata does two things: It teaches movement and it puts emphasis on posture.

(It also helps develop muscle memory, but repetition is always key to that.)

Stating the obvious, I guess....

:devil:

[krept]

My understanding of katas comes from when I took karate as a kid. We were required to do like a series of 15 moves (or whatever) that all flow together. THIS is what I meant by kata and IMO it's like trying to teach someone "ok, front snap kick, watch out for that attacker from behind (turn around and do a knife block then reverse punch), oops! here comes another guy at 3 o'clock, throw a low block because he tried to kick you in the balls" etc.

Granted, I was never much of a karate guy, but that's what I understand kata to be... kind of like those "forms" competitions. Now, if you say that a kata can be considered doing a short combo like left jab to left hook to right cross, I'd say that's a simple combo and the more you deviate from that (more complex combos) the closer you get to what I consider a kata. Could be semantics. Heck, even in BJJ there are "flows" like the most common is to transition from guard to triangle choke, to armbar to gaining rear mount. Technique flows like that and striking combos that are short make sense, but again... "katas" to me means a set series of techniques that are longer than just two or three moves.

Anyways, Coach Sonnon posts on mma.tv from time to time... his stuff KICKS ASS. I have the Grappler's Toolbox and it shows great exercises that will help your grappling even though you don't have a partner. I'm ashamed that I don't practice them, because they're good stuff. I also have Body-Flow: Freedom from Fear-Reactivity a good book he wrote. The guy's on another level, IMO but anyways, that ROSS stuff kicks ass and what I've seen... I DO NOT consider it to be related to that "kata" that I've experienced.

Again, could just be semantics.

cheers

[Wylycoyte]

I know what you mean, Krept. I've taken Take My Dough before, and the katas were explained that way. They were also, IMO, awful. What you see in ROSS is far closer to the stuff I've worked with than the old TKD nonsense.

And yes, shame on you! Get on the ROSS material and work it! Hatmaker's got some good stuff, too, as does Rutten, from what I hear.

[krept]

well see man, you made me all defensive and stuff :)

anyway, here is with Coach Sonnon posts:

http://mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=SetMasterFrame&FID=41&PID=19

cheers

[andy]

u just don't know how to use the kata, that's all. the idea is to be able to do 15-20 of them, 10 seconds each,and still get the technique correct, maintain balance, LOOK before all turns, have proper power, control your breathing, etc.

[andy]

kata makes you swift, balanced, accurate and powerful.

[andy]

if you get into the "ring" with ME, you'll get SHOT, dumbass. Or at the least, get hit with a chair, etc. Self defense ain't ABOUT fighting trained men. It's about fighting SEVERAL assholes, who have knives, chairs, etc. Guess what? Grappling aint worth a CRAP for that. While you are grappling with one, the other one cuts your throat.

[andy]

MANY a man can't bust a free hanging board, with a full distance punch. ESPECIALLY not boxers. They usually bust the knuckle on their pinkie when they try. :-) You have to know how to make a proper fist for bare knuckled punches, all boxers learn is bad habits.

[Wylycoyte]

all boxers learn is bad habits.

Yeah, like how to beat the **** out of Korean stylists pretty regularly.

[Wylycoyte]

if you get into the "ring" with ME, you'll get SHOT, dumbass. Or at the least, get hit with a chair, etc. Self defense ain't ABOUT fighting trained men. It's about fighting SEVERAL assholes, who have knives, chairs, etc. Guess what? Grappling aint worth a CRAP for that. While you are grappling with one, the other one cuts your throat.

Which means you better have a plan to deal with them. Since its pretty well proven that kicking doesn't work to keep them off you if they're coming in fast and hard, and that you probably can't draw a gun fast enough to deal with one inside of 6 feet without body contact, and that even if you shoot someone he might still coming, you'd best have a plan B ready.

[Aslan]

u just don't know how to use the kata, that's all. the idea is to be able to do 15-20 of them, 10 seconds each,and still get the technique correct, maintain balance, LOOK before all turns, have proper power, control your breathing, etc.

What is your definition of a Kata?

I think you are using the term incorrectly.

In general, most of the katas in our system cannot be done in less than a full minute.

There is one that only takes about 30 seconds, and it is very intense.

Katas stress movement and form. They are generally stylized to simulate several attackers, which is why there are so many direction changes and strikes in different directions.

I would suggest that it might just be you that doesn't understand the application of the Kata.

What you describe sounds like drilling techniques or sequences of combinations. These generally can be done in a few seconds. But, they are not Katas.

Gung Ji (Southern Kung Fu, and the Silat variant) has something like 400 separate movements, steps, strikes, sweeps, blocks, etc. You are not going to complete it in 10-20 seconds.

Nihachi Shodon (appologies for spelling - Shotokon Karate) has about the same number of movements.

The TKD katas I have seen take just as long and involve about the same number of movements.

Sim lim Tau (Wing Chung) might qualify for a 30 second kata, but I doubt it could be done properly at that pace.

I find it difficult to accept your position as being correct, but since I do not claim to be a Muy duk Kwan practitioner, I could be wrong.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

Sim lim Tau (Wing Chung) might qualify for a 30 second kata, but I doubt it could be done properly at that pace.:devil:

Not a chance. At least not the way I was taught to do it.

[krept]

Well, the kata stuff I learned in karate drove me up a wall, so I can't comment on it any further. I'm willing to admit I'm totally clueless as to what it accomplishes but if MMA guys can get by without it, I hope I can.

Yes, I know if I get into the "ring" I can be shot, hell, I can be offed on the WAY to the ring or ambushed there or the "ring" could be trapped.

We have to compartmentalize the conversation sometimes to simply "unarmed combat" and although such compartmentalizing isn't what REALITY is about it makes for a better learning environment.

What width and thickness board are we talking about breaking anyways? If it's a 1x2 or greater I think that would be VERY tough to break hanging. I'll be game to give it a shot, if I don't break it with a swing, I'll go to my composite stick, then I'll go with the mini sledge I use to forge, then an axe if I have to. :)

cheers

[Wylycoyte]

Well, the kata stuff I learned in karate drove me up a wall, so I can't comment on it any further. I'm willing to admit I'm totally clueless as to what it accomplishes but if MMA guys can get by without it, I hope I can.

I think you'll find any kind of movement awareness drills help, and possibly as much or more as working on forms. Feldenkrais and the other early movement awareness people all had extensive traditional martial arts backgrounds. Just because you can go into a ring and thug someone doesn't mean you're moving with maximal efficiency, particularly outside the ring.

The ROSS drills are probably just the ticket.

Oh, and we're talking 1 inch pine. I don't see how the hell a boxer will manage to break their knuckle on it since its free hanging. The worst that they'd do is knock the board back without breaking it.

[Aslan]

Not a chance. At least not the way I was taught to do it.

I didn't think so either, but it is a short form... It's been a while since I've done it.

In fact, we used to drill Kata's at Tai Chi speed using hand and ankle weights.

Katas are all about transition and posture.

Speed and power come from other activities.

The only kata that I can think of in our system, that is done for speed is P'au Tsi and it is primarily elbow strikes...

Again, I call Andy's claims into doubt.

:devil:

[hipster]

MANY a man can't bust a free hanging board, with a full distance punch. ESPECIALLY not boxers. They usually bust the knuckle on their pinkie when they try. :-) You have to know how to make a proper fist for bare knuckled punches, all boxers learn is bad habits.


Care to put the gloves on and step into the ring? I will wear the 16's you can have the 8's. Aslan can run the stop watch to see exactly how long the KO will take I say inside of 8 seconds. To make it fair I will drink a 12 pack and smoke a few cigs first. Oh thats right you run away from this kind of stuff I forgot that for a second would have to cut the ring off on you might take a few more seconds but same end result.

[Wylycoyte]

You can get some fight tips here (http://www.bumfights.com), Hipster!

[Aslan]

I wonder which one of them is Andy under a pseudonym?

:devil:

[hipster]

You can get some fight tips here (http://www.bumfights.com), Hipster!

That was too funny +100 for you (when I can give you some) Honestly I would love Johnny to give me a chance in the ring or on the ground. He would really be able to make some money for the vid I figure everyone here would buy it just to see him getting his ass handed to him buy a "nobody"with no real formal training and such. It might be little of me to want to beat the supreme **** out of him but in any event I am who I am.

Aslan you are getting me very intrested in that silat from indo you are currently involved in. I never heard of it until you told me to do a search on it intresting stuff. I don't know what is available here in my neck of the woods but I am going to take a look see ya just never know.

[Aslan]

It's cool stuff. I love it.

I hope you can find a school in your neck of the woods.

Even if you don't stick with it, try it and see what happens.

:devil:

[hipster]

It's cool stuff. I love it.

I hope you can find a school in your neck of the woods.

Even if you don't stick with it, try it and see what happens.

:devil:

I will at that Tim it might save me down the road even though I try to avoid physical stuff as much as I can and I am proud to say I haven't taken a punch to the face in about 10 years or so. I have been in a few dusters in the last 5 but I figure I got lucky with blocking/ closing the distance and dictating the engagement. Almost had my head ripped clean off in 2000 buy a dude much bigger than me he missed because he was drunk. I dont need any more stiches in my mug I am already ugly enough LOL.

[hipster]

Closest one to me is about 5 hours away the next closest one is 4000 miles away I tell you it ain't fair time for a beer and a good cry. I searched high and low and I would even drive over an hour if I had too. Aslan you are fortinuate to have silat in your area.

[andy]

come TRY me, punk, Any time at all. :-) I've been seeing crap like yours on the Net for FIVE years, everybody's gonna kick my ass. I've posted where to find me the ENTIRE TIME, and NOBODY'S dared try it, and you are no different. You are a pussy just like all the rest, all mouth.

[Wylycoyte]

Tuesday's gone, mother ****er. Tuesday's gone.

[hipster]

come TRY me, punk, Any time at all. :-) I've been seeing crap like yours on the Net for FIVE years, everybody's gonna kick my ass. I've posted where to find me the ENTIRE TIME, and NOBODY'S dared try it, and you are no different. You are a pussy just like all the rest, all mouth.

Blabber and run how typical, are you sure you are not french? Man you make me laugh . The only thing being tried is facial reconstruction on you thanks for the laugh wonder puss.
Like wiley said Tuesdays gone have a nut pill Johnny just like in the pen.

[krept]

boxers break their hands all the time in streetfights. Hell, a lot of people do because they try to crack the dome. As we all know, gloves aren't necessarily to protect the fighters from the blows (although they do protect from cuts). They are more to protect the hands.

www.sublimedirectory.com/basement/media/kimbo.wmv

that is a good example of a guy (Kimbo) who has conditioned his hands very well through many years of bareknuckle boxing. A guy I spoke with that is training him for mixed martial arts said the Kimbo's knuckles are gnarled like tree knots. You get a little view of em towards the end. Now, in contrast to what I said about the gloves above, this guy DESTROYED the other guy's eye that you will see in the end of the video. I believe he lost his sight... anyways, I think I've posted it before, so yadda yadda... pic below are the guys he's training with in FL

[krept]

Hipster, look into local Kali or Arnis schools as well... I think they're VAGUELY related to Silat, but Aslan can tell you more about it.

Any school short of a McDojo should be good stuff. Even videos can help, IMO.

[Wylycoyte]

That's quite true, but busting a knuckle on a light pine board that's suspended...riiiiight.

I'm a big fan of using open hands for the reasons you mentioned. Palm strikes, edge of hand, etc. Hammerfists are pretty cool, but about the only fist I like.

[krept]

yeah, I'm getting some pine next time I go to the hardware store so I can give this a shot.

I love fists for a lot of applications unless all you have is shots to the side of the head and forehead. Fists rule for liver shots, solar plexus, jaw, nose, forearms on someone covering up, etc. Make for a good threat to have someone overdefend their face (instinctually) so you can close distance and go to elbows and knees where the REAL fun begins :D :D

palms absolutely rule if you have mount or guard in grappling, they're great to make people shift to worse positions and help set up subs better. Hammerfists are great if you defend a takedown well (sprawl) or if you have someone going turtle and feel like being nice instead of rib kicking them or elbowing them in the spine whether or not you have the hooks in. Just IMO...

cheers

[RIKA]

Krept, I like that POW/MIA flag symbol a great deal. So many people forget those who haven't been accounted for. Thank you.

RIKA

[krept]

Yes, I've had one hanging in my garage ever since Lynch's crew went missing. It's in the corner along with a US flag, both next to my 100LB heavybag.

You can kind of see it in the background here:
dimworks.com/garage2.jpg

I use both flags for motivation when I'm in there.

This story is why I decided to change the avatar :(
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/11/gulag.report/index.html

[Aslan]

Hipster, look into local Kali or Arnis schools as well... I think they're VAGUELY related to Silat, but Aslan can tell you more about it.

Any school short of a McDojo should be good stuff. Even videos can help, IMO.

Arnis, Kali, Pensat Silat, and others are all good.

Another option might be a Kung Fu San Soo school. I know a couple people in california that are into San Soo and they seem to have their stuff together.

I've been told they do some of the same kinds of stuff we were taught.

:devil:

[hipster]

I will continue to look and let you guys know what I can find in my area. I have a serious craving for silat (thanks to Aslan) but it is not close enough to me to viable. There are some Thai schools close buy but they limit enrolment (if you know what I mean) my very close friend is a Thai guy and had over 100 amateur fights. He boggles my mind with what he can do and how much power he has( Chris is 5' 5" about 130 lbs) He does not fight any more because at his weight the Thai guys rule and he was sick of getting knocked all over the place.

Here is a thought maybe His Royal Highness Andy could give me some lessons I figure I could use a bit of work on my feminine side anyways, I would also be able to learn how to run away like a coward too boot.

[Hasher]

so let me summarize the thread for those tuning in late here.

Andy is superbadass and can whup anyone (althought he has never been in the ring or a real fight and constantly shows his lellow streak by wussing out when he is challenged to meet someone) and the rest of the posters are pretty serious about the martial arts.

[Wylycoyte]

Hipster, if you've got access to good Thai training, take it. Almost every Filipino/Silat guy I know of at least dabbles in Thai boxing as well, as they all fit together pretty neatly.

Also, I've found that its generally better to go with the best guy around regardless of what he teaches, as I'll still be learning good stuff). I'd rather than pine for a martial art or teacher who isn't. YMMV

[Wylycoyte]

I'd rather than pine for a martial art or teacher who isn't. YMMV


I buggered this up during editing...it should read, "I'd rather train with someone who is there than pine or a martial art or teacher who isn't."

[Half elf]

The only problem with breaking a pine board suspended would be to break it before the inertia of the board is upset. If you struck fast enough then you should be able to accomplish the task, but the hard part is putting enough energy in the wood to break it before it moves, otherwise its gone.
Sorry, but I'd need to see it done before I believed it.

[hipster]

Hipster, if you've got access to good Thai training, take it. Almost every Filipino/Silat guy I know of at least dabbles in Thai boxing as well, as they all fit together pretty neatly.

Also, I've found that its generally better to go with the best guy around regardless of what he teaches, as I'll still be learning good stuff). I'd rather than pine for a martial art or teacher who isn't. YMMV


The Three Thai places close to me only take certian people, I fully understand the reasoning behind this(they are puritans when it comes to this) The others that are a little farther away are not what I am looking for more like as you put it Take My Dough so in reality the name is there but the art is not. I believe I had mentioned Master Kim to you folks a while back. I will be stopping in for lunch next week so I am going to ask him if he still takes students and if he does well we will see what happens.

[Wylycoyte]

The only problem with breaking a pine board suspended would be to break it before the inertia of the board is upset. If you struck fast enough then you should be able to accomplish the task, but the hard part is putting enough energy in the wood to break it before it moves, otherwise its gone.
Sorry, but I'd need to see it done before I believed it.

Here's the closest I've found to it on the web thus far thus far. It's called a "suspended break" and is pretty common in Tae Kwon Do/Karate.

http://sjkim-taekwondo.com/Demonstrations/SJK4boards.mpg

[Wylycoyte]

Found this one by accident today. Apparently this guy does a lot of carnival tricks like this:

http://www.adnantarsha.com/images/rsd1b.avi

http://www.adnantarsha.com/images/tvfboard.avi

Here's his page:

http://www.adnantarsha.com/video_clips2.htm

[Ratsinthegravyredux]

It is a well established fact, in the world of andy, that free hanging pine boards are always looking for the opportunity to attack. Why just last night, I witnessed a gang of pine boards beat a homeless man to death. All he did was urinate on one of them.

If andy has been going around needlessly punching them for no other purpose than his own ego & gratification, it's no wonder they are pissed.

andy'd better sleep with one eye open. Those boards are conniving, vicious and patient. They'll wait you out, slip in the back and, when you least expect it....they jump your ass. Hmm, maybe that explains the condition of andy's butt in that picture that's floating around?

[Wylycoyte]

Hmm, maybe that explains the condition of andy's butt in that picture that's floating around?

And I thought I was a sick bastard! Keep that pic to yourself, you freak!
:Puke:

[Aslan]

you can actually toss one up and completely break it without the string. It takes a little practice, but you have inertial and the air resistance of the big flat surface of the board on your side. The strike needs to be perpendicular to the board, but other than that it isn't as hard as you'd think.

I suspect you could see it done at just about any decent martial arts school...

:devil: