Do you believe that there is evil?

[SatCong]

Is it quantifiable or would it be all-ahead, all-black, all-the-time, tortureyoursoulwithpainuntilyoubleedoutandie... OR--do--it's--will?

Can it be incarnate or, if you will, personified?

If so, can it work in subtle ways to steal one's small joys and erode away joy or pleasure?

Since I believe the firmament is overall yearning to achieve a balance. there are probably as many good as bad (or evil?).

Given any of the above, could the firmament be steeered towards a higher vibe (better, evovlved), where the evil that exixts as a balance is less evil or more good than it's previously, lower vibrating incarnation?
SatCong

[Rich Z]

Well the flip side of that question is: Do you believe in God?

[Wylycoyte]

Post withdrawn.

[DaRkWoLf]

I believe that negative energies exist. However, I never bought in to "hell" and "Satan." So in short, while I believe evil energy exists, I do not believe it has a 100% pure evil construct/embodiment.

[Rich Z]

I suspect it is all a matter of perspective. Probably even pure evil thinks of itself as being good for it's own self interest.

[Coyote]

If a man commits an evil act, is he evil? And what can you define as evil, beyond religious descriptions or personal belief?

[Magnum88C]

I don't do "vibes".

[Aslan]

I believe in evil, it is not merely the absence of good.

:devil:

[41mag]

No god(s)
No "good"
No "evil"
Our perceptions on good & evil are based on what we are taught by people who are either too lazy or they are scared to think for themselves.Inertia is a bitch.

[stevenms2008]

pure evil is satan pure good is Jesus but most of us are lukewarm

[Rich Z]

I think it would be just as tough to fully define "pure good" as it would be to define "pure evil".

[RIKA]

Good answer Steven.

RIKA

[Magnum88C]

Yep, Steven has the right answer.

[stevenms2008]

i feel special

[RIKA]

i feel special

You are. You have 4 green chicklets as well as a good heart.

RIKA :)

[stevenms2008]

thnx :blowup:

[andy]

I see it right here, every day. Envious, chicken****, lazy, ignorant ****s who can't ADMIT what sorry semblances of humanity they are.

[RIKA]

I see it right here, every day. Envious, chicken****, lazy, ignorant ****s who can't ADMIT what sorry semblances of humanity they are.

Yep andy. I'm really not a good person but I try every day to be a good person. Can't say the same for you though.

RIKA

[lucille]

The relativists, like Nietzsche, believe that there is no good and evil, only what is created by Man. The objectivists such as Plato, on the other hand, feel that good and evil are universal and timeless.

Thomas Hobbes, a British philosopher says that whatever we do, even good actions, are caused by self interest. Even charity, he would argue, is driven by the need to look good, or feel special.

Hume, an anti-rationalist, says that we can never come to an absolute answer for this question, as our thoughts in these matters are driven by emotion, rather than reason. We see the world colored by those emotions, and cannot remove from them long enough to make an absolute assessment.

The Greeks, exemplified by Aristotle, and the Christians, believe in virtue theory. Philosophers in these groups believe that morality consists of following precise rules of conduct; the main Christian theological virtues are faith, hope, and charity. Along with this, the Greeks initiated deontological theories, which say that right is exemplified by following duties or obligations of various kinds.

Kant developed the categorical imperative, a single principal of duty, mandating action irrespective of personal desires: 'you ought to do x'. The imperative was impressive, saying that people should be treated as ends, and not means to ends; but the element of free choice is lessened as one was to follow a mandate.

The consequentialists evolved into the utilitarians, these were relativists, saying that what ought to be done, what is good, is what is the best choice for the most people.

Lucille's theory: I am not a relativist. I think good is out there, it is not simply a human convention.

I believe in free will; God made us neither good nor bad, He gave us the power to make our own choices; this is what makes the choice of good so significant.

I know I am not the best, but I see life as a path and I believe I can learn and improve up until the day that path is taken from me. I believe that it is worthwhile, and good, to help everyone you can, and use what talents have been given you, while you travel your own path.

[John in AR]

Thomas Hobbes, a British philosopher says that whatever we do, even good actions, are caused by self interest.

I believe that for any action to be truly honest, there has to be some level of self-interest in it. Why do I feed and clothe my kids? It's not that I enjoy the act of making food, or buying teenager-sized clothing. It's because, due to my love for them, I prefer that they be clothed and fed, rather than not. So doing those things is the only way to get what I prefer. That makes it self-interest at work.

I get no direct pleasure out of buying flowers, either, but I do get pleasure out of my wife's smile when I bring her flowers; therefore I buy them for the pleasure they indirectly bring to me.

Why did I once step between my pregnant wife and a huge dog that came running up at us one night while out walking? I derive no pleasure from facing a large animal, but I do derive pleasure from knowing my family is healthy and happy; an absolutely self-oriented motive.

Doing things for my wife and kids is absolutely selfish in origin. Even Mother Theresa, who is often held up as some icon of "selflesssness", didn't begrudge the squallor she worked around; she was very open about doing what she did because she loved it. How is that anything other than self-interest...?

Try to think of an honest act that is completely selfless. I don't know of any. Missionaries, relief workers, or volunteers, at least the GOOD ones, the ones who don't end up in the newspapers, do what they do because they LIKE doing it.

[lucille]

John, I think that theory has some things going for it. I am not putting a particular value on any of them, I just like to contrast the basic theories and see which ones people are comfortable with.

I think y'all rock. Who woulda thunk that I'd be discussing philosophical theory on a gun board? I like it. And I like y'all.

[andy]

Plato was as FAR from being an "objectivist" as you can GET, lucielle. Ever heard of being "platonic? It has NOTHING to do with objective reality. It was ARISTOTLE who gave birth to the way that we've discovered truth and falsehood ever since. He was wrong about most things, but he said that "Nothing can be all A and all "non-A" at the same time. All the irrationalists have been trying to have their cake and eat it too, ever since. They want dope and abortion made illegal, and then cry when the jbt's that THEY empowered come for their guns. :-) When you can't lay claim to soverignity over your OWN BODY, you have no leg left to stand on when Big brother enslaves or kills you

[lucille]

Plato was central in the development of the absolute or eternal; he developed the idea that their are abstract entities which are timeless. He was indeed an objectivist.
Aristotelian philosophy appealed to reason, but he was more about the struggle to find the 'golden mean' existing between extremes. That being so, one could surmise that since balance was involved, even by the vehicle of reason, and that balance done by human beings, perhaps Aristotle might actually be counted a tad below Plato in the range of objectivism.

[John in AR]

They want dope and abortion made illegal, and then cry when the jbt's that THEY empowered come for their guns. :-) When you can't lay claim to soverignity over your OWN BODY, you have no leg left to stand on when Big brother enslaves or kills you

With you on that one. A person who says it's ok to outlaw an AR-15, MAC-10, etc with the argument that "they're dangerous nobody needs one", must also suport the same illegalization of Corvettes and 'crotch-rocket' street bikes.

[Rich Z]

Nearly everyone's interpretation of "freedom" is self-centric. It is applied from the perspective of what THEY want for themselves. Until you are ready to REALLY defend someone else's freedom, no matter how much you may abhore what they are doing or saying, you really have no concept of what that word truly means. Being truly objective is nearly impossible for most people.

[andy]

there is nothing WHATEVER objective about Plato's postulation that something exists beyond our ability to comprehend it.. Why bother to even consider such, when there's not a damned thing that you could ever know about it, how is it going to help you? big waste of time and energy.

[Rich Z]

there is nothing WHATEVER objective about Plato's postulation that something exists beyond our ability to comprehend it.. Why bother to even consider such, when there's not a damned thing that you could ever know about it, how is it going to help you? big waste of time and energy.

Perhaps it will help to put us in our proper places. How can you be the epitome of creation if some things are beyond your understanding? It is enough to know such things exist, even if you don't understand them.

But does that mean we will NEVER be able to understand it? I don't think human beings as a species will ever accept that. What fools would get into a ship and sail out into what appears to be an ocean without end unless they were willing to die trying to find answers that might not be there?

[lucille]

Andy, the very fact that those things are out there as ultimate ideas and goals encompasses the meaning of objectivism. I would like you to expound your ideas a bit, as from my point of view Plato is very much the objectivist.

When we sail that ship into the sunset we are looking for answers out there; a relativist would never have to leave home, saying that the universe is what he says it to be.

[andy]

They are willing to do such a thing because they see in LOGIC that the Earth is ROUND, and that the ocean can feed them as they go.

Just because YOU have some sort of need of believing that a man can be omnicient and omnipotent doesn't mean everyone has such a failing. Ayn explained it all very well:"Life is its OWN purpose, the good is to LIVE it". (emphasis mine) The mere fact that you HAVE to have something "bigger" than yourself to believe in proves that you are no objectivist. Why are you NOT "enough" in and of yourself. Man is never going to leave the Solar System, the Sun is going to Nova, and long before that happens, the human species will have used up so much of Earth's supplies that Nature IS going to find a disease that cuts us back to 1% of our current numbers.

[lucille]

Man's reach should always exceed his grasp. Striving for excellence, and having the idea that excellence, and good, is immutable, is an objectivist idea, and one I follow.

[Rich Z]

They are willing to do such a thing because they see in LOGIC that the Earth is ROUND, and that the ocean can feed them as they go.

Just because YOU have some sort of need of believing that a man can be omnicient and omnipotent doesn't mean everyone has such a failing. Ayn explained it all very well:"Life is its OWN purpose, the good is to LIVE it". (emphasis mine) The mere fact that you HAVE to have something "bigger" than yourself to believe in proves that you are no objectivist. Why are you NOT "enough" in and of yourself. Man is never going to leave the Solar System, the Sun is going to Nova, and long before that happens, the human species will have used up so much of Earth's supplies that Nature IS going to find a disease that cuts us back to 1% of our current numbers.

No they didn't. They thought the earth was flat. Many people of that age thought that the seas were populated with monsters and demons. Yet they braved all that on the hope that the stories were wrong.

[Aslan]

They are willing to do such a thing because they see in LOGIC that the Earth is ROUND, and that the ocean can feed them as they go.

Just because YOU have some sort of need of believing that a man can be omnicient and omnipotent doesn't mean everyone has such a failing. Ayn explained it all very well:"Life is its OWN purpose, the good is to LIVE it". (emphasis mine) The mere fact that you HAVE to have something "bigger" than yourself to believe in proves that you are no objectivist. Why are you NOT "enough" in and of yourself. Man is never going to leave the Solar System, the Sun is going to Nova, and long before that happens, the human species will have used up so much of Earth's supplies that Nature IS going to find a disease that cuts us back to 1% of our current numbers.

So, you're saying that there IS something bigger than man.: Nature.

And you are claiming INTELLIGENT behavior on the part of nature. "Nature IS going to find a disease..."

So, in your own posting, you reveal that you do believe in a deity, you just refer to it nebulously as "Nature"

There are other interesting gaffes in your post, but this one was particularly interesting.

:devil:

[Kent]

Just ask those that have come out of satanism and the occult. They will tell you that there is evil personified. They know.

[Rich Z]

Many years ago I bought an read several novels authored by a guy named Dennis Wheatly. Althought they are all fictional works, in each and every one, on the opening page, he placed the following warning:

I desire to state that I, personally, have never assisted at, or participated in, any ceremony connected with Magic—Black or White.

The literature of occultism is so immense that any conscientious writer can obtain from it abundant material for the background of a romance such as this.

In the present case I have spared no pains- to secure accuracy of detail from existing accounts when describing magical rites or formulas for protection against evil, and these have been verified in conversation with certain persons, sought out for that purpose who are actual practitioners of the Art.

All the characters and situations in this book are entirely imaginary but, in the inquiry necessary to the writing of it, I found ample evidence that Black Magic is still practiced in London, and other cities, at the present day.

Should any of my readers incline to a serious study of the subject, and thus come into contact with a man or a woman of Power, I feel that it is only right to urge them, most strongly, to refrain from being drawn into the practice of the Secret Art in any way. My own observations have led me to an absolute conviction that to do so would bring them into dangers of a very real and concrete nature.

Dennis Wheatley


Based on what I can recall of some of the passages in those books, this would certainly give anyone reason enough to give pause for thought.

[Kent]

All the characters and situations in this book are entirely imaginary but, in the inquiry necessary to the writing of it, I found ample evidence that Black Magic is still practiced in London, and other cities, at the present day.


Not just London and other cities. Wicca/satanism has worked its way into small communities. Even the so-called "church" is using it. It's WAY more common than most know and its getting worse.

The reason its so popular, IMO, is that it works, at least at first. Then the bad things start.

[Rich Z]

The reason its so popular, IMO, is that it works, at least at first. Then the bad things start.

Yeah. How many people do you hear that would say something like "I would sell my soul to be able to........."? Well maybe some people take the necessary steps to accomplish this. But they forget about the other side of the bargain until the bill collector shows up.

[DaRkWoLf]

Not just London and other cities. Wicca/satanism has worked its way into small communities... The reason its so popular, IMO, is that it works, at least at first. Then the bad things start.

Im sure everyone will start hating on me now, but ah well. I guess personal opinions is what this sub-forum is for.

Let us start with definitions:

Wicca- A modern offshoot (estimated 1930s-1950s establishment; when Gardner came to the US) of neo-paganism. Even though many claim that it has some farfetched pre-christian root, they are false; and every experienced, knowledgeable practicioner knows it. Its the teenie-boppers and their desires for rebelion one must ward against, as much twisted info comes from them. There are no grounds whatsoever to calling it the "Old Religion," as its esssentially brand new. All it is darasticaly modified paganism. You cannot mix it with satanism as wiccan's do not believe in an all evil entity (i.e. lucifer); plain and simple.
Satanism- Satanism is the direct address of the Christian's innovation of Satan as being Lucifer, of the fallen angels. The reason I say christian innovation is because Satan/Diablo/Devil (a single 100% all-evil entity) was not present before the dawn of christianity. Even Hades, titans, and giants (of the greko-roman pantheon) and varios Nordic "bad guys" werent 100% evil, as satan is described as being. Yes, many (not all, but a decent majority) satanic rituals are for the purpose of ill-will/evil, dont doubt about it for a second. And once again, forming a cult to contrast a single philosophy/religion, and using the reference figure of evil, was not smart on the founders (whom's name I dont know) behalf. But once again, satanism precedes all of the new age neo-paganism (allong with wicca) by a far shot; as it came about when the Catholic church began taking way more power than it deserved (using the Inquisition to kill all in your way isnt very nice is it?)

Alternate religion (present day and old ages) is a very deep rabbit hole; and one needs to come to the table fully aware and open minded (not coercible to follow, just open minded) to make any legitimate case. With good knowledge, you can even beat the teenie boppers at their own game (I have).

Now for part two:

About those "bad things" Kent, please explain.

One must understand that religio-magic can mean everything from spells and incantations, to prayers and hymns. Yes, prayers and hymns count. Through prayer, you are dare I say, directly talking to your deity (regardless of wether you are christian jewish muslim or whatnot, that is what you are doing!), and talking to god/s IS religio-magic. Through hymns one is honoring their god/s through song/chant, this is in itself a ritual (as is church/sinagouge (sp, i suck at spelling hebrew words) in the first place) and henceforth magic. Lighting a manora to commemorate the jews prevail in geting out of their plight and keeping the lights burning? This is no different from a pagan setting up an alter for a sabbat, to commemorate such an event as an equinox (?sp, damn i cant spell).

Each and every way one looks at it, all comes down to "im right because my religious book/ or I myself, say its right" We know from geometry that X cant imply Y, if Y is a support of X, and is yet to be 100% or your money back proven fact. And there is no 100% proven religion, otherwise 99% of the world would be believing in it, and have scientiic evidence (near impossible for religion to have any) to back it up. This is where religious tolerance comes to play.

So what is DW's religious preference you might ask? Is he off of his rocker? If you must know, and have any private questions/flames/death threats regarding the post, PM them to me.

[robert garner]

Well done DarkWolf!

[Ratsinthegravyredux]

Evil is.

It is simply one facent of humanity. No need to anthropomorphize it, no need to dress it up. Recognize it, accept it and motor on.

Evil exists in every religion, every government, every gathering of people and every person. To pretend otherwise is to set yourself up for failure.

The converse is also true. Good exists as well. No talk of god or devil, yin or yang, Donald or Daffy has any meaning without the basic exceptance of the interrelated nature of the opposites.

Get your head around what kind of world you shall choose to live in and then make your actions worthy of that world.

"No Gods, No Masters" as my anarchistic friends like to remind me.

[Kent]

Darkwolf. no death threats from me ;)

Read the satanic bible. Lavey LAUGHED at those that thought white and black magic witchcraft (yes, WITCHCRAFT) were somehow separate. He really thought it was funny. They serve the same master.

The CoS see satan as a force. But in the satanic bible, terms are used that denote a person. Kind of confusing.

When the church of satan got a little too commercial (ie: selling priesthoods, etc) a group splintered off called the temple of set. Google that. They are the real deal and are not to be trifled with "for the hell of it".

The temple of set see satan as a real being.

Talk to those that have been in the occult. Talk to those IN the occult. Go to their bookstores. Do research, it will open your eyes. You will be going from the theoretical to the practical. But I warn you. You start doing this, and you WILL come under spiritual attack.

You may not believe me, but humor me for a minute. THis stuff is dangerous. Dont treat it lightly.

There is a whole other world out there, and not all of it is nice.


PM me if you want
Kent

[Wylycoyte]

You've been reading too much Rebecca Brown, MD, Kent.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/brown.html

[brass hammer]

NO! kent IS LAYING IT DOWN ON THE TABLE!
FOR [1] AND ALL TO READ!
i my self have done battle, with the 'dark forces'
you really should have heard the scream and black flash as i snapped a friends OUJI board and cast it into a burning steel barrel!
another time, the girlfriend brought home a 75lb 'black crystal'
this thing was BAD JU-JU VIBES! i smashed it on the concrete,it broke in half,
i smashed [1] half, it shattered[disapeared] the other, when i threw it down onto the concrete ,reached back and 'bit' me in both hands[AFTER I RELEASED IT] in sparks/flash of fire, and both my hands bleeding, [ha!] the black ball that flew straight up out of that thing after it broke into a dozen pieces, shot up and hit the ceiling of my awning[and as it could not pass through] it slid down and out the side, then up into the night!

I **** YOU NOT FRIENDS!



[i have even , aw,,,,never mind! everybody IS 'SO' intellectual, ,,,,
it is enough]

[Wylycoyte]

Jeez. And here all I got in terms of an attack by Dark Forces was a black pagan chick and her 2 friends hitting on me.

I feel cheated, somehow. :eatpointe

[Kent]

You've been reading too much Rebecca Brown, MD, Kent.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/brown.html

Never heard of her (or the subject of the article) . Actually, that was tame compared to some of what I have read. But I am not going to call anyone a liar unless I KNOW they are lying. Saying that, it doesn't mean I take it seriously.

It's a strange world we live in, not at all like I was taught in school.

Just speaking from experience.

[Kent]

Also the ouija board. Are they still making that? It used to be sold as a game, but with a very interesting disclaimer on the box.

I listen to Coast to Coast AM on satellite radio. If you are familiar with the program, they deal in subjects like this. They have had exorcists (Malachai Martin, et al) on that have said that this "game" is nothing more than a gateway to posession.

To those that doubt that there is posession, keep in mind that The Exorcist was based on a true story. Every year, around holloween (naturally), on the Discovery Channel, they show a program in which they interview the exorcists. (It was a boy, not a girl that was posessed. Also, they said that the movie was a fairly accurate depiction on what happened) This happened within 30 miles of where I live.

You were right to burn the board. Thats the only way.

[brass hammer]

kent, i don't know if iwas being refered to as a liar[like ,i could care?]
as i only post from the facts, that i draw upon from my oWn existance in THIS LIFE .
i don't follow any programing/web-sites, for my INSIGHTS!

[Kent]

No, I was NOT calling YOU a liar! I was referring to the article linked above. Chill.

[brass hammer]

right-on brother![ha] i gotta go to the bank,[as in i'm outta here]

hey, post on my 'stupid things' in the B.S. board