1891 Carcano: Revisited

[DaRkWoLf]

I have this old 1891 Italian Carcano. I just bought 2 brass stripper clips and 100 rnds of yugoslavian mande ammo for it. I have used it as my "mad doctor in the garage" plaything for quite a while. I got it in bad shape anyway, so no collectors value, supposing I ever cared about value in the first place (I dont). The barrel has expanded to 6.68 mm and the rifleing is worn completely out in some places twords the muzzle, so the bullets bounce around a bit on their way out, but it still works. Its quite a sight. It has occured to me, why not take this wreck to a whole new level?

Im considering stripping and reconstructing the action to increase integrity, rebarreling, overhauling the trigger, ditching the severly operated on stock and trigger guard. Ill also overhaul the bolt itself, and add a new firing pin.

It will be quite the learning experience.

Im thinking of a .308 Win chamber, but if anyone here has a short action wildcat in mind, that they'd want me to build, feel free to describe it, and Ill test it for you. Ill have to test all of the cassings in the stripper clips, as for whatever reason, Ill keep them in my design.

Note, I know its going to be a PitA to rebarrel and rework, but Im going to be stubborn and do it anyway :nyah:

Any hints, suggestions, or informative resources are welcome, and if anyone wants to add a suggestion or personal desire, feel free. I can experiment with your ideas and concepts for you.

[RIKA]

DW, you might want to check carefully on the strength of the Carcano action. I've read from more than one source that the 308 Win is much too powerful for that old design. I'm thinking that an old beat up Mauser action would be a better platform for experimenting.

RIKA

[arebindixie]

DW, you might want to check carefully on the strength of the Carcano action. I've read from more than one source that the 308 Win is much too powerful for that old design. I'm thinking that an old beat up Mauser action would be a better platform for experimenting.

RIKA

I agree. The Carcano is not a strong action. On the other hand, it was supposedly strong and accurate enough to kill Kennedy (BS... I've been to Dallas, LOL!).

[Terry G]

I have a 6.5MM Carcano in fairly good shape, and I would not suggest firing that type rifle with a stronger pressure load than it was designed for. An "expert" on a different forum told me I was mis-informed, that the Carcano (Mannilicher) action, was stronger than the Mauser action. Bull****, don't bet your eyesight on it.

[DaRkWoLf]

Im with you Terry G. Theres no way a Carcano will ever beat a Mauser action. Im going to see how the 7.62x51 cases feed this weekend (friends bringing some, i have no x51 at my house, only the RUM cases :cool: ). I may consider 7.62x39.

Either way, I'll rebarrel it with saftey in mind, and see if theres some way I can mod it for pressure. Its going to be interesting for sure.

This is where pulliing a string will come in handy :)

BTW, Nice Carcano Terry. A much finer Specimen than mine LOL.

[DaRkWoLf]

Alright, this project is just about completed, ive modded the action and trigger how I want it (printer springs solve so many problems... you think im kidding? im dead serious) and Im stuck with a question:

7.62x39 or .308 Win (im leaning towards 7.62x51)

Ive done some digging and Ive found (from a few sources, this amazed me) that Ackley actually had good regard for the carcano. This suprised me. Also, the whole thing about 7.62x51 being alot closer in length to 6.5x52 than 7.62x39 makes the feeding with the 7.62x51 that much happer (i also know that the .308 Win happilly works with the bolt, as i did a few tricks to see how it would/would not like the extractor, it does cooperate).

Anyone have any last minute imput before I go mad doctor and grab the pipe wrench?

[RIKA]

DW, if you mod that thing to .308 (and I doubt the 7.62x39) I'll teach your guide dog to do all kinds of tricks. I'm not kidding.

Don't do it. Its not worth your eyesight or your life.

Your not so old

Aunt RIKA

[DaRkWoLf]

DW, if you mod that thing to .308 (and I doubt the 7.62x39) I'll teach your guide dog to do all kinds of tricks. I'm not kidding.

Don't do it. Its not worth your eyesight or your life.

Your not so old

Aunt RIKA

Okay Aunt Rika (heck, I wish you were my aunt)

I just crunched some numbers. The 7.62x39 is 3000 psi below the lowend of the 6.5x52 round as the 7.61x51 is way high.

Now that Ive gone and crunched the numbers and kicked out the x51, is the x39 an ok idea?

[RIKA]

If its lower pressure than the Carcano round then its probably okay if the receiver is in good shape. Headspace very carefully and test fire from a remote position. Since this is your first, might be a good idea for a gunsmith to double check. Not a putdown because I would do this myself.

RIKA :)

[DaRkWoLf]

If its lower pressure than the Carcano round then its probably okay if the receiver is in good shape. Headspace very carefully and test fire from a remote position. Since this is your first, might be a good idea for a gunsmith to double check. Not a putdown because I would do this myself.

RIKA :)

Sounds cool. I was planning on using a string for the first 100 rounds (give it a full 100 to see that it lives) from a ditch.

I really like how I did the trigger with the printer springs though, im really not kiddding, the improvement over the regular carcano trigger was extremely tangible. My psycho concepts astounds myself sometimes.

The receiver is in great shape. The outside looks like a surp but its actually really decent inside.

I just dont know how Ill get this thing to be happy feeding the x39, should I just go single shot?

Btw, Rika, I really really do appreciate all the concern. Honestly, thanks.

[RIKA]

You're very welcome DW. I think the x39 round is shorter than the Carcano round. You may need a magazine filler block silver soldered to the back of the mag to make it feed properly. You may also have to dremel the feed lips though I would do that as a last resort. They did that a lot of those kind of mods during the 1950's before short actions came into vogue. I read about that in an old copy (1957) Gun digest.

Hey, what the heck kind of printer springs are you using? Computer printer springs? Are they leaf springs? Pictures?

RIKA

[DaRkWoLf]

Hey, what the heck kind of printer springs are you using? Computer printer springs? Are they leaf springs? Pictures?

RIKA

Computer Printer Springs. The Short yet Wide little 1cm ones next to the servos. Overlap the regular spring thats already there and not only is it reliable and constant but its really really crisp and less wobly and simply more consistant. I dunno how it works on others but the trigger on this one has benifited exponentially from it. I just kind of sat there playing with it and thought "spring!" and it just happened to work out.

[agreed]

since you can't hit anything with it, why bother?

[DaRkWoLf]

since you can't hit anything with it, why bother?

I expect decent results from 50-100 yards out of it. Its just for fun. May actually end up being a 1/2 way decent hunter. The barrel will be good, its the action and the bolt that will be the weak links. Mabye I can even get dad to shoot it a little bit.

[RIKA]

Mabye I can even get dad to shoot it a little bit.

If you do that, I suggest having it restocked or least a thick, thick recoil pad.

RIKA

[Terry G]

My old carbine is very accurate. 50 to 100 yards is short range for these old dogs. If your barrel is in decent shape I'll bet you can double the 100 yard distance easily. Accuracy and reliability was not a problem with Italian military rifles, the knockdown power was. Have fun and be safe. If your 7.62 X 39 load is way under the prescribed limits, I see no saftey hazards. The action is strong within it's cartridge limits. My carbine's light, but 6.5mm ammuntion is pleasant to shoot through it. I shot my first squirrel with old military ball ammunition ( $6.00 per hundred) with this rifle.

[AK4ME]

A little known variant of the Carcano was used by the German troops in North Afrika in limited numbers during WW2. They were Chambered for the standard military service round of the time......8mm. This action may be a bit stronger than you might think.

They can be found here for sale www.hunterslodge.com

[brass hammer]

way before your 'attempt' you WILL first pass "the rite of passage"
as all true fierce warriors of the tribe 'MUST' complete.

#1] eat .5 pound of EX-LAX[in[15] minutes
#2] DRINK A [6] PACK OF WARM BEER[in [15] minutes
#3] run a complete mile [in [15] minutes at FULL TILT BOOGIE-MODE
#4]fire AND HIT your [6] empty beer cans with a fifty year old SINGLE-SHOT
using HIGH-BRASS waterfowel loads [25] rounds in [15] minutes IN THE
AIR[missing, no more than [5]]
#5],,,NOT **** YOUR PANTS,,, as the 'OTHER' warrior braves will be ridin'/godin' you to ner'tears of THAT LIFETIME IN AN ,,, ,,,HOUR!!!

ARE 'YOU' HIP/GAME? FOR THE TASK AT HAND??? just let me know! :rolleyes:

[DaRkWoLf]

Ok, progress is moving right along (this is a FUN project) and Im beginning to worry back more on the feeding.

Im thinking of putting a 1913 rail on the top with ony the middle part actually on the actions front so that I can put a scope on it. I do not want this to be a scout mount. This says bye bye to any potential stripper clip use and opens the door for 2 options: internal box mag and single shot.

Now single shot would be the easy and probly sensible thing to do but Im wondering how I could go about making an internal box mag. The rounds would be slid from the back of the action and pushed down by the rear of the cartridge, which would be an adventure in itself. The long carcano action will allow extraction by pulling the case behind the side of the mount, and there is a tolerable opening in between.

Probly take out the carcano follower (which is just a stick lever on a spring), throw in a folding spring and a AK-47 Mag follower (which may not fit, proby use specially formed sheet metal), and close the tolerences with a soldered block; much like what rika suggested.

Anyone think I should go this route or just head single shot? Worth the effort?

[RIKA]

Dw, I'm sorry that your post escaped me. This is just a wild idea off of my head but I wonder if a Mosin Nagant magazine would work if you modified it. If it comes to it a single shot wouldn't be too bad. I don't think I would throw a lot of money into the gun since its just a learning/fun project.

RIKA

[brass hammer]

well,? 'iffin' your READY! to be tested, i'll share my thoughts MATT.
but membership into the ,,,,,,,,,
1]****-less
2]snockered
3]slow
4]shot-slingers
society, is in it's SELF! a far more 'worthy' endeavor! :dgrin:

[DaRkWoLf]

it probly is. but hey, its fun to tinker with and i end up with something that shoots the readilly availible 7.62x39.

[brass hammer]

'COOL',,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :dgrin:

[gripper]

Damn.....this is getting interesting.Were those 8mm Carcano's made at Terni??And did they retain the Mannlicher clip arrangement,or did they go with a stripper clip conversion???

[DJetAce]

I hope everyone here knows the 6.5 Carcanio has a working pressure of about 38,000 PSI while the 8x57 is around 50,000 psi. You got that? I know the Germans made a bunch for the Rumanians cuase I have seen them! But they did this out of despiration just like alot of their pot metal rifles at the end of the war.

I would not mess with that rifle and make such a gun. A bolt in the eye smarts.

If you want a 8mm, go buy one made that way.

What you could do with the rifle is get a surplus 6.5 or 7.35 Italian barrel are remake the rifle back to where it was (but with a good bore.)

[Terry G]

I'm with DJETACE on this one. Watch that pressure! I have seen photo's of German 12 year olds being issued Carcanos that the Germans had re-chambered to 8MM after taking them from the Italians (March 1945). Since the boy's were only issued 10 cartridges, maybe the rifles held up. I know the boy's didn't. Criminal.

[DaRkWoLf]

Its not in 8mm! I know the 8mm was suggested but since it wont take 7.62x51, how on earth can it take 8mm. Thanks again for all the care involved in telling me no 7.62x51.

My project gun is in 7.62x39 which is 3000 psi under the 6.5.

Its ok. Dont worry.

[RIKA]

DW, how is the project going?

RIKA

[DaRkWoLf]

DW, how is the project going?

RIKA

Wonderfully. Single Shot. Stock is ready, Action is How I want it. Barrel will be done by a smith. I wanted to do it, I dont have the money to put out on the wrench I need and risk messing it up (why risk getting hurt, you guys are right on). I wanted to learn with it but I guess it looks like barreling will elude me. Christmas present for my gf (Sony PSP, seems like im the only one that dosent want one) and AK expenditures ("common use" weapons first; to believe that Ive come all this way, from an uber AR in the latest whizbang round to the 5.45 AK is amazing to many of my friends, i still dont have the eotech that i long for but thats next year) have taxed the barrel fund.

It sits under my bed crying "barrel me!" As I believed I indicated before, Im going after a shilen. It looks geat, excluding the pipe...

Heres a list of what is done:

-Converted to Single shot
-Those printer springs for the trigger
-Inside of the stock sanded and where needed dremmel sanded to make it more uniform
-cleaned up all of the rust (thats a given)
-recut all threads (excluding barrel)
-smoothed out the "lines"

When I have the barrel Ill do my 1913 mount.