"Graphic" .223 vs. deer

[John in AR]

In the spirit of the "terminal performance" examples here lately, a pic of how the Winchester 64-grain PowerPointPlus load did on a small bambi last fall.

Around 80-90 yards, small (probably 100-110 pound) button-buck, quartered slightly toward me. Shot in the spine, you can see where the bullet entered just forward/right of the spine, travelled around 9 inches in all, and exited rear and to the left of the spine. In between is what looks like an exit wound right on the spinal column itself, but is actually just where the spine blew apart. Notice that while it looks like an exit wound, the pelt itself (folded down in the pic) isn't punctured. The actual exit point is very near the white spot near the "E" in "Exit". The area to the rear was very bloodshot due to trauma, and off to one side of the exit, due to the angling shot.

Thing never took a step. Dropped literally in its tracks, rolling halfway over as it fell, in the direction the bullet hit it.

[Gregh]

Great pic, and I bet it tasted GREAT!!! :madeuce:

[armoredfist333]

Do you think a bushmaster can kill a deer with a 1 to 9 twist ratio or does it have to be more of an bolt action rifle?

[BigEd63]

If you mean for using the heavier bullets like 62grs+?

In that case 1-9 will work fine.


And welcome to Armslocker. :)

[DaRkWoLf]

A 5.56x45 can kill a deer regardless of platform; and unless your AR or bullet has major quality issues you are capable of 2MOA groups at worst provided you have the sufficient twist rate for your bullet to stabilize. Even a short-barrled CQB rig can propell a 5.56 well enough to kill bambi cleanly within 100 yards. As long as you do your part and put the round through the heart and both lungs, or just brain the thing, the bullet will do its magic.

AR-15 chambered for 5.56 Twist Rate Recomendations:
+ To stabilize bullets up to 55gr - 1:12"
+ To stabilize bullets up to 68gr - 1:9"
+ To stabilize bullets heavier than 70gr - 1:7"

1:7" will cause 55gr bullets to lose accuracy because they will be over-spun, some hot-loaded 40-50gr of anti-varmint construction will break up after they leave the barrel. 62gr bullets will just lose a little bit of accuracy from the over-spin. 1:9" is fine and dandy for 50gr-68gr.

[DblTap]

At what point are these bullets stabilizing? And at what point will a .223 lose enough energy to be insufficient for deer? Does it just depend on where you hit the deer with it? Does it depend also on the size of the animal? Could you take an elk with a .223?

[BigEd63]

Whoa wait a minute here I beg to differ on a few things concerning the 1-7" twist. I've never had it perform badly with 55gr bullets. But lost accuracy can be a subjective thing.
I've never fired any 55gr through the 1-7" twist AR's I've owned, past or present, that was not factory "GI" grade ball. The "worst" I groups I've gotten averaged 3.5MOA and that was with Federal/American Eagle. And the best have been with the WW/USA that was made in Isreal. Both of those examples were out of Colt M4 Sporters with iron sights.
On the other hand I've never had the civiy 62gr, WW/USA stuff to any better or worse and it never impressed me enough to spend the extra money in buying it in large quantities.
However I've had great results accuracy wise in both the Sierra 63gr SMP and the 60gr Hornady SP bullets.

I think the most important thing here is the quality and materials in the ammo. And the quality of the rifle's bore. I've witnessed a former co-worker's 1-9" twist bolt action that wouldn't group up to it's abiltiy with any bullet weight due to a rough bore from the factory.

[DaRkWoLf]

BigEd,

3 MOA is a tad on the high side for XM193 in an average Colt AR, and with the spin it opens up as it gets farther out. M855 type should be getting just over 2 MOA. I can't say I know your whole situation and I don't want to hate on your rifles but methinks something isn't all well in barrel-ville (maybe something lame that just barely pushes it over the edge like crown issues).

Maybe it is subjective though, and I'm nitpicking.

DblTap,

If you can penetrate, it is almost solely about shot placement. With deer, the easier target to penetrate offers a tad over 2" of vital area and the harder target is about 4". Would I like to shoot a deer with a .224" bullet thats past its envelope: no; Can one do it and kill the thing: yup. As far as elk, a 5.56 running out of energy most likely wouldn't penetrate through the first lung you got to. At shorter distances where the round is in its envelope, the only reason one can't kill an elk with a 5.56 is the shooter, though they aren't particularly easy or forgiving shots.

[BigEd63]

DW- No problem, I get much tighter groups with handloads than with factory ball ammo.

Whoopse to me for not posting what other 55gr stuff will do. 3.5 MOA was the worst of what American Eagle that I tried would do. I neglected to post the WW/USA M193 groups which were an average of 1.5 MOA.

You are correct in what the M855 does out of my rifle, I just expected better for that bullet weight and of Winchester/USA. As Rem/UMC ,my 2nd choice of M193 after WW/USA will do the same and cost me less $$$.

Sorry that my previous post was not as clear been trying to multi task on a few things today and not doing too good a job at it.