View Full Version : Results: Failure to stop drill challenge
ballistic_ken
05-01-2005, 05:31 PM
I am kinda embarrased, but here are my results. I shot 5 strings of 2 to body, 1 to head at 5 yds.
My times were:
1) 2.71
2) 2.31
3) 2.31
4) 2.15
5) 2.21
Here is a pic of the target. Keep the shotgun comments to yourself :headbang: .
http://img107.exs.cx/img107/7928/targets0023if.jpg
How'd everyone else do ?
ballistic_ken
05-01-2005, 05:35 PM
BTW, this was shot from concealment, light jacket.
Ken, I'm not an IPSC person but it looks good to me. Thanks for having the courage to go first.
RIKA
If you would, could someone post the 'rules'/'standards' in this thread. Then we could all post pics to the smae thread instead of each shooter starting anew.
Thanks! I'll get to the range this week.
Aslan
05-01-2005, 07:12 PM
Rules are simple - you post the challenge, you get to make the rules.
Only two permanent rules I insist on:
Must be legal and must be safe.
Other than that, you make the post - you get to make the call.
BTW thanks for starting us off!
:devil:
ballistic_ken
05-01-2005, 07:38 PM
I am lumping together what we agreed on another thread:
1) Shoot 5 3-shot strings, 2 to body and 1 to head. range is 5 yards.
2) Timer and pics not necessary, just shoot it and measure the final groups (head and body).
This is the thread that has the discussion that set up the rules:
http://www.armslocker.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32754
Rika,
Thanks !!!
For clarity, I shoot IDPA, not IPSC. I would enjoy trying IPSC, as soon I get a bit more free time.
Magnum88C
05-01-2005, 08:59 PM
What gun/caliber used?
How was the gun concealed (shoulder rig, belt rig, etc)?
I don't have a camera, and a silouette is too big to scan. I could scan portions I guess, if I make all the hits in 8x11" or less. . .
DaRkWoLf
05-01-2005, 09:05 PM
How about we make it: "If unspecified, anything goes"
I really didnt intend to make it that complicated this time around.
ballistic_ken
05-01-2005, 09:13 PM
I used my Kimber custom .45 ACP.
Holster was a blade tech. OWB belt rig.
Don't need to be too complicated.
Ken
Magnum88C
05-01-2005, 09:18 PM
I don't have a camera, and a silouette is too big to scan. I could scan portions I guess, if I make all the hits in 8x11" or less. . .
Duh, you already specified. . .musta had a senior moment. . .
2) Timer and pics not necessary, just shoot it and measure the final groups (head and body).
Sorry 'bout that.
Ankeny
05-02-2005, 01:19 AM
BK:
I'll post pics and group sizes tomorrow. I don't know why you are embarassed. Your average time for 2 COM and 1 to the "head" is 2.34 seconds. From concealment with a real gun in a real holster, that's pretty decent.
ballistic_ken
05-02-2005, 10:00 AM
Thanks Ankeny,
I was a bit surprised that my group size was that large. I only had 2 -1 hits, but expected better.
Just goes to show how a simple basic skills drill can help point out areas to work on.
I am gonna try to slow down a bit, work on my sight picture.
Am looking foreward to seeing other results.
Ken
Ankeny
05-02-2005, 03:46 PM
I shot the drill twice, once going wide open, the second time I slowed way down and looked at the sights. Here's the pic:
http://www.trib.com/~rankeny/failure.jpg
Both drills were shot hands at sides from my IPSC rig with my new single stack .38 Super. Other than the Wilson barrel/bushing, and Caspian frame, all parts are STI. I had the gun built for carry and for the occasional IDPA match. Here's a pic of the gun:
http://www.trib.com/~rankeny/super2.jpg
The target on the right was going at a rather brisk pace. As you can see, I jerked the crap out of one of the shots and it went into the typical low left quadrant. The group size for COM is 10 inches and the upper group size is 5 inches. The times were 1.53 seconds, 1.52, 1.46, 1.53, and 1.54 seconds.
The target on the left was going at a much slower pace. The lower group size is 2 3/4 inches and the upper group is 1 1/2 inches. The times were 2.65 seconds, 2.46, 2.81, 2.53, and 2.72 seconds.
If I have time after work, I'll shoot the drill with my normal carry gun, a Glock 26, from my carry holster (Sparks 55BN) from concealment wearing my regular jacket. Expect a big group, lol.
ballistic_ken
05-02-2005, 08:56 PM
Good shooting Ankeny !!!
I need some practice, it seems. I loose a lot of time on my transition to the head shot, slows me down quite a bit. Gonna work on that too.
I guess my groups weren't as bad as I thought, but damn you are quick. Your "slow down and aim" time was similar to my "go fast as I can" time.
If you don't mind a question, What form of competition do you compete in, and at what level (classification) do you shoot ?
Ken
Ankeny
05-02-2005, 09:10 PM
Two division IDPA master in CDP and SSP. I mainly shoot IPSC, and I am a five division master in that sport. I moved up to Grand Master last month in Limited, but I think the scores for the entire match will be tossed out due to irregularities in meeting Level One match requirements.
BTW, those failure drills were shot with a Bianchi Hemisphere pistol retention device for a holster and mouse fart .38 Super loads. That's a far cry from a real holster under a jacket.
Magnum88C
05-03-2005, 06:52 AM
I need some practice, it seems. I loose a lot of time on my transition to the head shot, slows me down quite a bit. Gonna work on that too.
Not dure exactly how your .45 shoots. But I've found with my P-90 that when transitioning to a head shot, the muzzle rise is just perfect to be able to raise the rear sight to meet the front sight (instead of bringing the front sight down) to give me a head shoit.
I shot this target with the Colt Commander 45acp an hour ago. Range won't allow shooting from holster so I had to start with pistol laying on counter. Distance: 5 yards. The torso shots came from kind of a flash sight picture but the transition to head was slower because of getting the front sight. Was shooting quick but I need work. Actually I think I could have done better with the revolver.
RIKA
Ankeny
05-03-2005, 03:06 PM
Rika:
Looks good to me. I am using IPSC targets and the "head" is much larger, 6 inches square. On the smaller targets you are using, time will naturally be slower.
I went out last evening to chrono loads and to shoot my carry gun. I shoot my competion guns a lot, but I tend to neglect the gun that counts.
I did the drill cold, no warm up, no dry draws, just grip it and rip. The pistol is a Glock G26 in a Sparks 55BN holster on the point of the hip. I wore my every day jacket. The results looked like this:
http://www.trib.com/~rankeny/glockfast.jpg
The times were 1.99 seconds, 2.14, 2.05, 2.14, and 2.14 seconds. I'll take it any day.
ballistic_ken
05-10-2005, 10:30 PM
Any one else gonna shoot this one ?
Would love to see more people in the Friendly fire, practicing.
Ken
DaRkWoLf
05-10-2005, 11:08 PM
I did miserable. my practice target had better grioups, but i shot more round at it so it wouldnt count.
No holster allowed, so I shot out of low ready, went pretty fast, but didnt bring a timer (forgot at home, and went to range straight from school). Average times were probly 1 - 1.2 secs, but then again, no holster or draw; so its an estimate.
I think Ill redo this next week, was terrible.
Looks good to me DW. You have posted an honest target and your shooting will get better with practice. Did I count wrong; it looks like only 8 hits in the torso though 2 might have gone in the same hole. I want to see your results after a couple of weeks more practice. It will be much better.
RIKA
Ankeny
05-11-2005, 05:29 PM
You did miserable? You do know 1-1.2 seconds from the low ready is absolutely screaming right?
T. Daves
05-11-2005, 08:05 PM
I don't own an auto, but i do own an old Colt OP in .38sp, is that okay. All my other handguns are SA.
T. Daves, heck yes! Do it with your OP and I'll give it a try with my S&W 38sp Victory model.
We need more people to join in this game.
RIKA
Wylycoyte
05-11-2005, 08:17 PM
You did miserable? You do know 1-1.2 seconds from the low ready is absolutely screaming right?
And more than likely a gross underestimate.
Use a timer next time. It's hard to estimate times appropriately. I wouldn't be surprised if it took at least 1.5-1.75 to make those shots.
DaRkWoLf
05-12-2005, 04:34 PM
You did miserable? You do know 1-1.2 seconds from the low ready is absolutely screaming right?
Those were estimates, but it was definately positively less than 1.5 . I needed to bring the timer, but the numbers I provided were pretty close. Yes I think I did miserable. The way Ive always shot double taps would be kind of like how the burst fire mechanism on a Beretta 93R would be if it was 2 shot. The raise from low ready and the 3rd are the long parts.
I thought that was common for low ready? no?
Still dosent mean squat untill I can get the tap in the X and the 3rd in the center of the head.
I believe I have, by my standards, failed.
Ankeny
05-12-2005, 05:50 PM
Two centered up in the body and one smack dab in the middle of the head in a second from the low ready is a lofty goal. Good luck. Most guys will never get two in the body from the holster in a second.
You do understand that the concept of the 'double tap' is an inherently slower way to think about shooting multiple rounds, don't you?
DaRkWoLf
05-13-2005, 07:31 AM
You do understand that the concept of the 'double tap' is an inherently slower way to think about shooting multiple rounds, don't you?
Not really, I understand "tap" to be essentially a 2 round burst. Im probly mistaken :(
Ankeny can probably explain this more eloquently than I, but, the idea of a 'double tap' [be it 'controlled pairs', 'dedicated pairs', 'hammers', 'split hammers', whatever] is to fire two rounds with one sight picture and minimal or no confirmation of alignment on the second shot. It is limited to firing two rounds.
In the parlance of the Modern Technique, you would acquire a Flash Sight Picture, followed by a Compressed Surprise Break, as soon as the gun returned to it's start position, a second Compressed Surprise Break would occur and, viola, a 'pair'. You would then depress to the Guard position [aka low ready], evaluate, etc, etc.
From practicioners of the Mod Iso school of thought, taking advantage of the inherent stability of the platform, shooters discovered that they no longer had to limit themselves to 'pairs'. Between the stance, the acceptance of varying sight pictures and more efficient means of manipulating the trigger, they quickly discovered that you could fire as many rounds as you choose to, at the same cadence, with less effort and better control than from they had been led to believe.
Some decent books on this material are:
Surgical Speed Shooting by Andy Stanford
Shooting from Within by Michael Plaxco
Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals by Brian Enos
What it comes down to is manipulating the trigger and moving the gun during the recoil stroke, so that the 'dead time' between shot number two into the chest and shot number three into the head is used to its biggest advantage. Working from a good mod iso base with the gun on centerline also assists in keeping the gun indexed, again allowing for more rapid shots.
It's all about efficiency and economy of motion.;)
Wylycoyte
05-13-2005, 12:58 PM
Gadzooks! You mean I should remember to use a stance when shooting at a target?!
I give up. This shooting thing is too damn much work.
the draw and low ready are VERY different, time wise, for most people. for a reaction, raise and hit, 10" at 10 ft, .50 second is just middling fast. .45 second is a lot more like it. A repeat hit in .15 second, leaves .40 second for the transition to the head, which is a piece of cake with a good SA auto.
DaRkWoLf
05-14-2005, 04:22 PM
the draw and low ready are VERY different, time wise, for most people. for a reaction, raise and hit, 10" at 10 ft, .50 second is just middling fast. .45 second is a lot more like it. A repeat hit in .15 second, leaves .40 second for the transition to the head, which is a piece of cake with a good SA auto.
I can agree with that, but that 10" space should be closer to 3-4 or less.
the gun's wt and size matter, as does the recoil of the load. you don't need to bother with the group size, if the hits are in the chest and the head, you are doing fine. The issue is speed. Hand start positoin matters, too, especially from concealment. For surrender hand start, and REAL concealment (ie, FASTENED coat or shirtail over the gun, with hot loads in a lw commander .45, at 5 yds, 1.8 seconds is smoking. With wussy loads, a full size GM and cheating with coat left open, hands at sides, 1.8seconds is pretty easy. for the skilled hand. with such gear, the top hands can average 1.5 seconds. The reaction, concealed draw and first hit is made in .95 second, the repeat in .20 second or less, leaves .35 second for the transition to the head.
Mine was so pathetic, i wont post pics,times.
Practice needed, desperately.
DaRkWoLf
05-14-2005, 05:49 PM
Mine was so pathetic, i wont post pics,times.
Practice needed, desperately.
Come on and post em. Have some fun. No one cares if you didnt do to hot.
ballistic_ken
05-14-2005, 11:47 PM
Kent,
It is up to you, to post it or not.
No one who's opinion matters is going to be too critical. I think you would get a lot of encoragement.
It would be fun to watch someone improve as they practice too. There are some really good hands here that could give you solid advice by looking at your targets.
Either way: practice, practice, practice !!
Ken
Ankeny
05-15-2005, 12:19 AM
DW:
To be honest, I had never timed how long it takes to go from low ready to the target. I tried it today. I was running .85-.90 for the three shots. Your guess of 1-1.20 might even be a bit high. Oh well, now I know.
DaRkWoLf
05-15-2005, 12:43 AM
DW:
To be honest, I had never timed how long it takes to go from low ready to the target. I tried it today. I was running .85-.90 for the three shots. Your guess of 1-1.20 might even be a bit high. Oh well, now I know.
Na, I think it was about right for estimate.
Im sure most peole here can do that, I thought it was regular.
Good times Ankeny.
I need to shoot some more. Thank goodness I have an IDPA match in addition to my weekly practice this week. BTW, that point-shooting stuff I was talking to you about held up pretty well in practice.
Can you offer any fundamental pointers, considering my tight demands for shot placement over speed? Even though I shoot IDPA, I still challenge myself to the head area.
T. Daves
05-16-2005, 12:43 AM
What kind of timers do you people(politically correct) use and how much dough will I be out if I get one.
DaRkWoLf
05-16-2005, 01:29 AM
PACT MKIV for 200$
That I still actually need to take out and use some day...
You should be able to get a CED for less than $130, if you shop around.
you can't READ. 1.5 seconds was for the DRAW. From low ready, 1.0 second FLAT.
you can't READ. 1.5 seconds was for the DRAW. From low ready, 1.0 second FLAT.
All the advice, times and comments in the world are a useless joke unless a person can do it himself.
RIKA
All the advice, times and comments in the world are a useless joke unless a person can do himself.
Sage advice, Andy. You ought to try... :crazy1:
:-) Others know better. Yahoo search for Shooting Chrony. Their timer is $100. Look on Ebay for timers, probably $50.
furthermore, I do NOT have to be able to run a 4 minute mile to KNOW that if you can't, you aint a real miler. Knowing that 2 hours and 10 minutes is a top Marathon performance is necessary for you to know the sheep from the goats. slow assed perfomance should be KNOWN as slowassed performance, and that's all that some people can deliver. You THINK 2 seconds is "fast", so you quite trying. That's what competition is all ABOUT people, KNOWING what's what, instead of GUESSING
In 1975, we thought a reaction, draw and 3 A's at 25 yds was SCREAMING. Robbie, using a limited gun and rig, got SIX, under the stress of a US Nationals. So, dummies, KNOWING what's really fast IS necessary, and when I tell you that something is "cutting edge" as far as speed goes, it's cause I KNOW.
DaRkWoLf
05-16-2005, 06:30 PM
Feel free to show your actual ability to do any of it.
Whens the last time you touched a gun? 10 years?
Go back to your place and let the people that actually discharge real weapons talk. Want a cookie?
Ankeny
05-16-2005, 06:45 PM
KNOWING what's really fast IS necessary, and when I tell you that something is "cutting edge" as far as speed goes, it's cause I KNOW.
:laugh01: :;puke02: :nyah:
Aslan
05-16-2005, 06:46 PM
furthermore, I do NOT have to be able to run a 4 minute mile to KNOW that if you can't, you aint a real miler. Knowing that 2 hours and 10 minutes is a top Marathon performance is necessary for you to know the sheep from the goats. slow assed perfomance should be KNOWN as slowassed performance, and that's all that some people can deliver. You THINK 2 seconds is "fast", so you quite trying. That's what competition is all ABOUT people, KNOWING what's what, instead of GUESSING
I guess it depends on what your definition of a real miler is. I think your analogy is flawed.
My personal best mile was 4:36 (and no, I can't do that today - so don't even bother with a stupid remark) But that was and still is a respectable time for a mile. Wouldn't win any international competitions, but you'd be better than 90% of the population - most of whom can't manage a 6 minute mile.
So does being faster than 90% of the general population, but slower than the 1% that make up the truly elite really make you disadvantaged in the grand scheme of things?
The only one I have observed quitting anything is you Andy. The examples are numerous, and well documented. I just hope you don't quit your efforts on your book, video and web site.
As far as timings etc. I doubt even you can meet your own silly requirements. (Silly for a number of reasons that are apparently lost on you.)
It would be easy for any of us to point out on a constant basis your inability to read a map or a compass. Or the fact you don't even know enough about your own AO to know what mountains you live in.
So why not drop all your insults and blather and actually discuss the timings (and why you think these particular values matter) like a adult?
You were doing real good until I had to edit your post to remove the slams.
I know that people here are practicing and working on improving their skills. Too bad you cannot legally do so - but you made your choices.
:devil:
Wylycoyte
05-16-2005, 07:22 PM
I know that people here are practicing and working on improving their skills. Too bad you cannot legally do so - but you made your choices.
:devil:
::coughcoughairsoftcough::
NAME something that I"ve quit on, dude. What you guys cant IMAGINE is somebody with my kind of BALLS.
I'm thinking of BBs. Grains of sand. Total nothingness.
Not derogatory. I'm doing YOGA.
Peace.
RIKA
Aslan
05-16-2005, 09:15 PM
NAME something that I"ve quit on, dude. What you guys cant IMAGINE is somebody with my kind of BALLS.
Do you really want to go down this road?
I guess you're right, I can't imagine walking away from a half-way house, later surrendering to a phone call, and calling that "being on the run" or a "daring prison escape".
I can't imagine calling myself a survival expert, when I can't read a map or a compass. (I like how a compass forces you to travel in a straight line, and how maps can't help determine what areas may be flooded or likely places you'd run into enemies.)
I can't imaging trying to pass myself off as a black belt while demonstrating a yellow belt's level of skill.
I can't imagine commenting on .50 caliber ballistics or performance without any knowledge, especially on a board where people own such and are very familiar with all aspects of their performance.
I can't imagine being demonstrably wrong so many times and yet claiming to be all-knowing and never wrong.
I can't imagine confusing the number of posts with the quality of posts.
So, I guess you're right, I can't imagine....
BTW, people with the kind of balls I believe you are describing are commonly referred to as eunuchs. Whether or not that description applies to you is a separate issue completely.
Note to mod's - if you decide to nuke this thread or these posts, can we move them to the rubber room?
:devil:
DaRkWoLf
05-16-2005, 09:28 PM
NAME something that I"ve quit on, dude. What you guys cant IMAGINE is somebody with my kind of BALLS.
One cant quit what one dosent even start.
What you guys cant IMAGINE is somebody with my kind of BALLS.
Well, why don't you take THEM out of you MOUTH. Perhaps you'd BE more INTELLIGIBLE.
T. Daves
05-16-2005, 09:55 PM
Guys, I have to admit I don't really know how to use a compass either. I went out and bought a GPS though, so I won't get lost unless the batteries give up. " I need to learn how, huh?".
DaRkWoLf
05-16-2005, 09:57 PM
It is very worthwile to learn to use the compass.
T. Daves
05-16-2005, 09:58 PM
By the way I'm going to try the challengethis weekend, without the timer,maybe I can get one next week.
DaRkWoLf
05-16-2005, 10:38 PM
Im going up to "hollowtip"s place for the weekend now. He'll shoot the challenge, and Ill reshoot it to try and make up for my crummy results.
Aslan
05-16-2005, 11:39 PM
Guys, I have to admit I don't really know how to use a compass either. I went out and bought a GPS though, so I won't get lost unless the batteries give up. " I need to learn how, huh?".
Learn to use the compass! This is a must have skill (and it really isn't that hard). Depending on where you call home, look to see if anyone offers an orienteering class - fancy way of saying they teach you how to use a map and a compass to find where you are and how to get somewhere else.
That's the one thing that cracks me up when someone says a compass isn't useful. With a compass and a decent topo map, you can figure out where you are at.
You probably just haven't had the chance to really use one.
:devil:
There are a lot of places where you can learn to use a map and compass. This link is pretty good for a starter.
http://erg.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/factsheets/fs03501.html
RIKA
I started another thread with a bit on Land Nav here:
http://www.armslocker.com/forums/showthread.php?p=139718#post139718
Not trying to "pull an andy", but I figured it deserved its own topic rather than continue in the "Failure to Stop Drill" thread. :dancer01:
Sorry. I didn't see your post. Thanks
RIKA
Sorry for the confusion, Rika. I started the other thread before I saw your post but after I saw the comments on learning compass and GPS. :cool:
I'll give it another shot today, come hell or high waiter, i'll post results, since I was the one that originally opened my mouth, its only fair.
http://home.earthlink.net/~kdb71864/45send.JPG
Rushed it. No timer but from low ready to 3rd shot, MAYBE 1.5 sec, if that long. Not nearly long enough to get a decent site picture.
Also, that was 18 rounds fired. not good. But, things can only improve ;)
These kind of challenges can only help us all improve. What handgun are you using?
RIKA
P14-45, with a nice, easy, light trigger, but I am picking up a makarov saturday and will try it with both.
DaRkWoLf
05-21-2005, 06:58 PM
Heres my reshoot:
Im doing MISERABLE right handed. I need to slow down, relax, and shoot; not bounce around like a freakin jackrabit.
DaRkWoLf
05-21-2005, 07:00 PM
And here was "hollowtips" target, much better than mine!
Shot this drill this AM before class start, so no pictures...
Shot on an IALEFI Q target with an 8-inch high chest ring and 4-inch head ring.
I ran the drill twice, once from concealment and once from low ready.
All hits were in there respective rings.
From Concealment:
Closed front Hawaiin shirt.
Glock 19 in leather IWB holster.
3.08
3.04
3.81
2.78
3.02
From Low Ready ["belt buckle" of IALEFI Q]:
1.48
1.43
1.2
1.12
1.20
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