Double tap AR15 challenge [Archive]

RIKA

05-03-2005, 12:31 PM

On a whim I decided to do the double tap thing with the AR15 at 25 yards and with iron sights. Gun in both hands at side pointing down range. Raise AR and fire 2 shots as rapidly as possible. I've never tried this before and as you can see I dropped a shot at the bottom of the target. More practice .. more practice. Feel free to laugh - I'm not very proud of it.

RIKA

Aslan

05-03-2005, 01:20 PM

Had that been a real person, that dropped shot probably would have taken the fight out of him...ouch!

:devil:

Wylycoyte

05-03-2005, 01:34 PM

Looks like you might need a little trigger work. Lots of low & lefties.

RIKA

05-03-2005, 01:45 PM

Yes. You're right. Too much handgun and not enough rifle.

RIKA

ballistic_ken

05-03-2005, 07:38 PM

I will try this weekend.

I am really rusty w/ the rifle, but look foreward to trying. will post pics.

I am really starting to enjoy the Friendly Fire area, let's try to keep it going !!!

Ken

RIKA

05-03-2005, 08:13 PM

Looks like you might need a little trigger work. Lots of low & lefties.

Uhhh. What does lows and lefties mean. What am I doing wrong.

RIKA

ABCF

05-03-2005, 08:40 PM

For a right handed shooter, low & left is indicitive of poor trigger control, ie, classic flinching. It's, by far, the most common shooter error out there.

Proper trigger manipulation & dry practice can go a long way to alleviating the issue.

When firing a 'double tap', could you explain how you move your trigger finger?

That might make it a bit easier to explain/get us on the same sheet of music, so to speak.

RIKA

05-03-2005, 09:35 PM

Okay. I am not flinching - not with the 223. I move my trigger finger straight back. Perhaps this will explain a little. I mentally put myself in a fantasy/reality situation where I was engaging an adversary at 25 yards who wanted to deanimate me. :D Deliberately putting time/pressure/stress on myself. In other words I was pushing myself as fast and as hard as I could. Not trying to prove anything to anyone - just stop the aggressor. Did you see the size measurements of the target in the other post?

Not getting defensive, it was real fast aimed fire not spray and pray.

RIKA :shrugs:

hipster

05-03-2005, 11:04 PM

Had that been a real person, that dropped shot probably would have taken the fight out of him...ouch!

:devil:

I was thinking the same thing "weiner cleaner" ahhhhhh the horror

hipster

05-03-2005, 11:08 PM

ballistic_ken

05-03-2005, 11:14 PM

Rika,

I think that using an IDPA or IPSC style target would help a bit in your shooting. At least a life size style target.

Your consistent low/left impacts do indicate an improper sight adjustment or a flinch/jerk. If it is like that at 25yds, you are way off at 50 & 100 yds.

Try a slow, careful 3 shot group at 25 yds (offhand, no bench). If groups are good and centered, you have a trigger control problem. Otherwise, it is a sight adjustment issue.

Good luck, and keep at it.

Ken

P.S. The opinions stated above are my own, and worth exactly what they cost you.

ABCF

05-03-2005, 11:38 PM

Rika,

Didn't mean to offend.:) What I was after was 'how do you manipulate the trigger?'.

You may want to try this:

After the initial shot breaks, hold the trigger to the rear and let it move forward just until it goes 'click'. Reapply pressure for next shot. Repeat.

This is 'trigger reset', as opposed to taking the trigger finger completely off of the trigger or flicking the finger forward and back to the break point. Working with 'trigger reset' will allow you to be more consistant with your trigger manipulation. It also reduces the length of trigger travel and weight of trigger break.

Also, you may try working at less than 25M just to eliminate as many concerns as possible. Inside 25M, though, you will impact approximatley 2.5-inch below your aim point due to the line of sight/line of bore offset.

RIKA

05-04-2005, 05:57 AM

Thanks to all for your comments. No offense taken at all. After thinking on it last night, I do believe that lack of proper trigger control plays a part. The biggest problem I think is sight alignment. I was moving so fast in target acquisition that I didn't always have everything properly centered. I can do it in my sleep with the handgun because I've been shooting it so much but haven't practiced all that much with the rifle in recent months.

Will make up some larger targets. What are the measurements of the IDPA/IPSC size targets, please? Other target size suggestions?

Thanks

RIKA :)

ballistic_ken

05-04-2005, 06:35 AM

Rika,

There are pics of IDPA(mine) and IPSC(Ankeny's) targets in another thread here. I think the overall dimensions are the same, scoring zones are different.

quick dimensions are:

head 6" x 6"

torso is 18"w x 24"

I think these would be more realistic for your practice.

Let us know how the practice goes, and how you correct the point of aim/trigger control issue.

I didn't realize the 2.5" low @ 25yds for an AR. Can anyone give me a breakdown of POA/POI at various ranges for an AR ?

Thanks,

Ken

ABCF

05-04-2005, 06:57 AM

You can be dead on at 25M, it's at ranges less than 25M that you have to deal with the difference between the sights and the barrel. Easiest way to visualize it to take a sight picture on a target across the room. Walk forward until the muzzle touches the target. Notice the difference between where the sight is and the muzzle?

That offset cannot be mechanically dealt with insde of 25M. You simply learn to compensate by holding off the required amount when closer than 25M.

With a standard military zero, you will shoot a group 1-inch low at 25M, which will give you a Maximum Point Blank Range of 250M or thereabouts [varies with bullet weight & barrel length].

ABCF

05-04-2005, 08:42 AM

Here's a link to a site with plenty of info on the attributes of various zeros.

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/zeroingmethods.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/zerotrajectories.msnw

Ankeny

05-04-2005, 03:25 PM

Rika:

Diagnosing shooter related problems over the Web is pretty tough. The low left impacts could be just jerking the trigger or a flinch, or it could be a couple of other problems. When a person jerks or fliches they very often fail to isolate the action of the trigger finger. That is, they convulse the grip (handguns and pistol grip rifles in particular) and tighten their fingers when they manipulate the trigger. The same issue can arise when shooters try to go fast. They aren't flinching or jerking at all, but they are tightening thier grip as they manipulate the trigger. Another problem can manifest itself with hits low and left. If your finger is too far through the trigger guard, or if the pad isn't perpindicular to the trigger face, you might roll your finger across the trigger face as you pull. This is especially true of hanguns.

andy

05-06-2005, 06:51 PM

ENTIRE issue has been left out. What were the TIMES? If safety was engaged and finger was outside of guard, and time from beep to second shot was 1.3 seconds or faster, with iron sights, not bad. Do NOT train on 18" wide targets. Men are NOT threats to you with their arms at their sides. Solid hits on the torso are but a 12" wide target. Don't be sloppy. arm hits are LUCK hits.

RIKA

05-06-2005, 07:22 PM

You are correct that times would be an important factor if this was a real competition but its just for fun. Thats the reason that I showed a poor target. We are trying to get people to participate and actually go out and shoot - whatever the result. This isn't an ego trip but a learning experience that we can build on as we have time.

RIKA

ballistic_ken

05-10-2005, 10:32 PM

I didn't get a chance to shoot this one this weekend, will get it done.

Any others gonna give it a "shot" ?

Ken

andy

05-14-2005, 04:27 PM

time is everthing. any can get such hits, even little kids,if they have enough TIME. getting them in 1.1 seconds, from the low ready,tho, that's tough

andy

05-14-2005, 04:28 PM

Not that you'd NEED 2 hits, or even one NICE hit,with a good 223 sp. Those things are SO wickedly destructive and shocking that "just" a shoulder, arm, or leg hit is going to screw him up REAL bad, making him very unlikely to be able to hit you in the time it takes you to hit his buddies and then return to finish him off.

Magnum88C

05-14-2005, 05:39 PM

Yeah sure, just like a .45 to the little finger will knock you down. More magic bullet BS.

Kent

05-17-2005, 11:39 AM

I'll give this a sot this pm, although it may have to be from 50 yds.

RIKA

05-17-2005, 12:27 PM

Kent, please try to get in closer if you can so you won't be handicapping yourself.

RIKA :)

andy

05-17-2005, 02:16 PM

shouldn't slow you down more than .3 second, as vs at 25 yds.

Kent

05-18-2005, 04:14 PM

There are red circles on what hits I had.

http://home.earthlink.net/~kdb71864/223send.JPG

RIKA

05-18-2005, 05:05 PM

Looks darn good to me Kent. That dude would have been deanimated. :beer: Thank you for giving it a try. Any idea of time or did you just go as fast as you could (like I did).

RIKA

Kent

05-18-2005, 05:28 PM

Thanks :beer:

I just went as fast as I could.

This was the first time I went for speed, always try for tight groups w/ no time limit.
I like this though. Good exercise to practice, and I have at least a month off to improve, especially the pistol challenge!

RIKA

05-18-2005, 05:31 PM

DW's left hander is going to be a huge challenge for me. I'll probably shoot it with the 45 and the N frame 357. Will show both targets. Be prepared to laugh.

RIKA

T. Daves

05-18-2005, 10:15 PM

Okay, question, can this challenge be done with say a Rem. 7400 in 30-06 seeing this is the only auto rifle I own, besides the 10-22 that is.

ballistic_ken

05-21-2005, 11:50 PM

T Daves, I don't see why you couldn't shoot what you got. Specify what you are using, or start a new challenge. Just shoot !!!

ballistic_ken

05-22-2005, 12:02 AM

Here is mine:

http://img265.echo.cx/img265/840/gunpics0061bs.jpg

Obviously a problem here.

Times are:

1) 2.36
2) 2.18
3) 2.07
4) 1.72
5) 1.74
6) 2.25
7) 1.80
8) 1.93
9) 1.85
10) 1.58

Did some sight adjustment and shot again:

http://img289.echo.cx/img289/711/gunpics0133zi.jpg

Times are:

1) 2.13
2) 1.73
3) 1.74
4) 1.78
5) 2.21
6) 1.88
7) 1.66
8) 2.19
9) 1.60
10) 1.64

I shot from low ready position, aquiring a "flash sight picture" for both shots.

I shot open sights, pulled the aimpoint for this challenge.

I need some quality time with my AR.

RIKA

05-22-2005, 07:09 AM

That looks great Ken; much better than mine. What distance were you shooting from?

RIKA

RIKA

05-22-2005, 07:12 AM

Okay, question, can this challenge be done with say a Rem. 7400 in 30-06 seeing this is the only auto rifle I own, besides the 10-22 that is.

Go ahead and shoot it with your 7400. Do you know that Eagle Industries and Brownells offers 10rd box magazines for your rifle?

RIKA