Demi Barbito?

[ABCF]

http://demibarbito.com

Found this site while surfing. Anyone have any experience with the man or his material?

[krept]

I've talked to him a few times and have seen his Firepower video. Good stuff, lots of nice drills and stuff for firearms work and an excellent resource for the beginner. He might not have the best technique of a lot of different people, BUT he's got his CA CCW and carries a G26 (sometimes G19) all the time. He incorporates all kinds of practical training in his regimen like practicing holding an intruder at bay while calling the cops... both he and bad guy have simunitions. He practices knife w/gun with simunitions, etc. hand to hand, empty hand vs. knife, etc. and the whole time he reminds people that "room clearing by yourself is the LAST resort" "if someone pulls a knife, give em your wallet or run" etc.

If there is anyone else that at least teaches decent striking with groundwork submissions, FMA style weaponry, how to use pepper spray, how to pie corners with longarms, how to use a white light, etc. I'd like to hear it. I'm not putting him on a pedestal or anything, I just think what he teaches is true mixed martial arts as it should be... kind of like bujutsu/budo back in feudal Japan... emptyhand techniques were only a small part of the whole... blades, archery, swimming w/weapons, etc. were all part of the show.

I'm sure there are guys that teach this stuff like Demi does, it's just that I haven't seen them around or they know HTH stuff but only teach weapons or vice-versa. FWIW, Demi posts on the weapons forum on mma.tv.

cheers

[Wylycoyte]

He might not have the best technique of a lot of different people, BUT he's got his CA CCW and carries a G26 (sometimes G19) all the time.

I'll comment on the rest of this post later, but I just have to ask...

Dude, my mother's got a CCW. What does that in and of itself prove?
:eek:

Added: Perhaps one of the reasons that I'm really not impressed by the material is that when I look at it, I know a number of people who could cover most, if not all of his material as well or better. What's somewhat surprising to me is realizing that, more than likely, I could do most of it better, although I'd want to see myself on video before I make that statement definitively. I really should get off my ass and get some NRA certs...

Krept, I don't know how much dough you've got or where you live, exactly, but have you thought about trying to hook up with Lee Aldridge aka RBCF in Albuquerque, or SouthNarc or Insights for one of their roving classes? I think you'd see more of where I'm coming from if you had a broader exposure to reality-based trainers.

[ABCF]

Dude, my mother's got a CCW.

But does she have the kool tats? :nyah:

[Aslan]

I'll comment on the rest of this post later, but I just have to ask...

Dude, my mother's got a CCW. What does that in and of itself prove?
:eek:




It's a pretty daunting task to get a CCW in California, or so I'm told.

OTOH, it's pretty easy to get one in AZ...

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

It's a pretty daunting task to get a CCW in California, or so I'm told.

OTOH, it's pretty easy to get one in AZ...

:devil:

It depends completely on the county. Packing.org has a list of "damn near shall issue", "maybe", and "you havent got a prayer" counties on their California page.

[ABCF]

If there is anyone else that at least teaches decent striking with groundwork submissions, FMA style weaponry, how to use pepper spray, how to pie corners with longarms, how to use a white light, etc. I'd like to hear it.

Don't train out much, do you? :-punch:

Off the top of my head, guys that i've trained with who do integrated training...SouthNarc, OPS, Insights & TDI. Other guys, whom I've not trained with yet, but ahve either interacted with or had friends train with...Kelly McCann, Paul Sharp, Lee Aldridge.

Having said that, I don't know many people, teaching realistic defensive skills, who are not teaching striking while grappling or OC or structure clearing [both with short guns and longguns] or lowlight work. As to "FMA style weaponry"...if I were to read that as "knife & stick work"...same thing applies, all the integrated trainers cover integrated fighting skills.

[krept]

heh... well, out here in AZ the community is focused mostly into UFC style training. Then there are ex-SAS guys, SWAT types that teach weapons and have done some training with "a Gracie" or some stuff like that. That's about the extent that I know of what's going on out here.

Realize one thing... I'm on a state gummint salary and have lived paycheck to paycheck for a long, long time. I have taken one 5 day vacation in the last 5 years and that was paid for by someone else. If I could spare the time or money above what is needed to maintain my skillset, I'd probably go to a place like Gunsite and get good firearms training. As far as empty hand, I'm not too worried... I'm pretty sure I can hang with a good amount of folks when it comes to banging and torquing ;). Name dropping and consequent character assassination is... yawn. If there's a local place in Phoenix where people mix it up, I'm ready to check it out.


cheers

[krept]

btw, Demi is out of San Luis Obispo, listed as difficult to obtain CCW by Packing. Yep, not that it means anything related to technical merit... um.. how about the fact that he is licensed for Simunition use as a civilian? Nope... not that either, huh? Maybe his dad and someone else's dad can get together and see who kicks who's ass :D

hmm... is it the skill of the person as an individual or their skill as a teacher that makes learning easy. nevermind, rhetorical question

cheers

[Wylycoyte]

Krept, you seem to be turning this into something that it isn't. "Character assassination"? "My dad can beat up your dad"? Please.

Muddying the waters doesn't change the fact that you keep bringing this guy up and I keep shooting him down purely based on what he's shown on his site and asking myself, "based on what I've been exposed to, is what I'm looking at right now good, bad or indifferent?" I don't care if he advocates a different approach, what I do care about is whether or not I can plug the material into a scenario featuring multiple opponents, weapons, and aggressive, forward drive from each of them and have it work. I might still die, but at least I'll go down fighting and have the best chance I can get of getting out of the situation. Weakassed roundhouse kicks, wimpy straight blasts and having the gun in a non-retention position when the person's in reach as in the above picture have shown themselves to be fantastic ways to allow someone to stomp a mudhole in you in Simunitions/FIST suit soirees that I've seen and been involved in.

As for his pure instructional skills, I do consider that somewhat related to his habit of spamming a forum and becoming argumentative when asked to actually contribute as opposed to just dropping propaganda leaflets. He's been bounced from at least one that I know of because of that. If he can't get along well enough to hang out, then how is he going to do in a class when someone asks him some tough questions that criticize his approach? And yes, THAT'S rhetorical, since I really don't know the guy, either.

Ok, since I've beaten on poor Demi enough :sobstory: :D I will say that I like the fact that he seems to function well in trapping ranges and is attempting to coordinate so much cutting edge material. I think that's actually his problem...like Microsoft, he put together a program too quickly and without enough testing to see how robust it is. His shooting material isn't solid and I'd need to see more of his unarmed material to comment further. The brief bit that you linked to was extremely unimpressive, but he more than likely does that because he's a JKD guy and feels he has to pay lip service to the Straight Blast and "Every Range of Fighting" rather than just close to grapple and clinch like he seems more comfortable doing. He certainly has a head for business, as he's a shameless self-marketer and managed to swim through a lot of red tape to set up his program in CA rather than just set it up in AZ or some other state that's less of a PIA.

[Wylycoyte]

hmm... is it the skill of the person as an individual or their skill as a teacher that makes learning easy. nevermind, rhetorical question

cheers

BTW..

yes, no, ::dead silence::, and what is a cat when it flies?

cheers.

[krept]

LOL

I might still die, but at least I'll go down fighting and have the best chance I can get of getting out of the situation.

OK! that's the whoever-mentions-they-are-ready-to-die-first trumps-all argument... I can't win now... I didn't know you were that hardcore. :)

Anyway, this is a moot discussion... THIS is TRUE JKD http://dimworks.com/ricky.mpeg

[Wylycoyte]

LOL



OK! that's the whoever-mentions-they-are-ready-to-die-first trumps-all argument... I can't win now... I didn't know you were that hardcore. :)

Anyway, this is a moot discussion... THIS is TRUE JKD http://dimworks.com/ricky.mpeg

Nice ad hominem, with a strawman twist while you were at it.

What I was referring to was that there are situations you can get into where no matter how good you are, you're ****ed. You still have to try as hard as you can, though, as God might just miracle your ass out of there somehow. The best, most realistic training you can get under your belt will go a long way towards bettering the odds.

If you're ever ready to discuss facts and our opinions of said known facts, let me know.

[krept]

I actually thought it was quite good, myself. :D

What facts do you want to discuss? Do we go to credentials... i.e. who has the most paper by the most certified instructor? Do they get put in a ring, etc? I mean...

I don't know what you are talking about "having the gun in a non-retention position when the person's in reach as in the above picture." I know you know that's a version of the "officer down" shooting position that is taught to FBI, etc... i just don't know your point. Regarding the "straight blast" I don't know either... I'm not a JKD guy and I could care less about it. If it's time to unload, it's gonna happen and not just a bunch of arm punches to the grill. But if that's a legit technique that Lee or Inosanto or whoever now runs the JKD Concepts show, then so be it. Weak assed roundhouse kick? I dunno either, maybe it's a half committal check-kick like deal, I can't even remember. How many times have I even brought Demi up? I don't know him, I don't have a dog in the fight... all I know is that he's got a good website that at least shows him training with different styles on vid. Anyone else have that? Hell, is there even a pic of SouthNarc without a blurred headshot? Yeah I know he's undercover, etc... he posts on USN but I'm just saying that to give newcomers a good idea of what I CONSIDER to be well rounded training, I've brought up, and will continue to bring up Demi for those reasons mentioned above.

Now it's not a really big deal, but if you think I'm trying to avoid a repartee or otherwise be ostentatious then we can debate ad infinitum ;)... otherwise, if it's just an "I know this, let's see what you know" thing we should probably do PMs. If it's strictly about Demetrius and we want to dissect him, we can go there too... but realize if one goes that route, to avoid sounding like an armchair quarterback we are going to need at least photo... if not video proof how (the collective) our technique is superior. I've got webspace and can host your stuff.

:D

salud!

[Wylycoyte]

I actually thought it was quite good, myself. :D

What facts do you want to discuss? Do we go to credentials... i.e. who has the most paper by the most certified instructor? Do they get put in a ring, etc? I mean...


You're the only one thus far who's brought up anything other than raw skill and techniques taught. I think you know what I'm trying to examine and debate, and I've already mentioned under what circumstances I expect the **** to work.


I don't know what you are talking about "having the gun in a non-retention position when the person's in reach as in the above picture." I know you know that's a version of the "officer down" shooting position that is taught to FBI, etc... i just don't know your point.


And I'm saying its wrong. Time and time again in Sim/FIST suit work, when the other person's within reach of your body, having the gun at extension means it gets taken away from you. That's why I mentioned serious pressure testing and robustness of overall system. At a tgreater distance than what's pictured, sure, extend away.


Regarding the "straight blast" I don't know either... I'm not a JKD guy and I could care less about it. If it's time to unload, it's gonna happen and not just a bunch of arm punches to the grill. But if that's a legit technique that Lee or Inosanto or whoever now runs the JKD Concepts show, then so be it. Weak assed roundhouse kick? I dunno either, maybe it's a half committal check-kick like deal, I can't even remember.


Then watch it again. You'll see why I'm bitching.

And I agree about the really unloading on the guy...I mentioned Burton Richardson and the Boxer's Blast in another post...he switched because the straight blast is basically a series of weak jabs done with forward pressure. The boxer's blast is a series of crosses...one foot steps, opposite arm punches. Bridges the gap and has a lot more authority.



How many times have I even brought Demi up?


About every single time someone mentions force on force training. The only reason I'm even challenging things up to this point is because I care enough to see people get the best training they can get...thus far I'm not seeing it out of Demi's material. In a vaccuum, its great. Comparing it to others, I think there are better options. I'd like to see more of his material, but he's not exactly been forthcoming when asked. You'd figure demo clips and photos would be the creme de la creme of his material to draw in more $$$$, which is also I'm so down on it.


I don't know him, I don't have a dog in the fight... all I know is that he's got a good website that at least shows him training with different styles on vid.
Anyone else have that?


I should have included that in my "I admire his mad bidness skillz" paragraph above. To my knowledge, no, although there are several such sites that seem to be in the works. Is having a site an acknowledgement of how good the training is, though? There was a cool little essay on James Keating's site about "modern bujutsu"..equating old skills to modern equivalents. First aid, driving skills, firearms, etc. replacing the old gentlemanly arts of herbalism, horsemanship and archery, so I see what you're saying here.


Hell, is there even a pic of SouthNarc without a blurred headshot? Yeah I know he's undercover, etc... he posts on USN but I'm just saying that to give


I've posted this link several times now. http://www.shivworks.com/videos/remv2.wmv


newcomers a good idea of what I CONSIDER to be well rounded training, I've brought up, and will continue to bring up Demi for those reasons mentioned above.


Again, if you look at some of what other people are teaching, I think you'd see more holes in the material. I get on people about wanting to go to Gunsite, too, for the same reason, and usually wind up getting run out of town on a rail. :D



Now it's not a really big deal, but if you think I'm trying to avoid a repartee or otherwise be ostentatious then we can debate ad infinitum ;)... otherwise, if it's just an "I know this, let's see what you know" thing we should probably do PMs. If it's strictly about Demetrius and we want to dissect him, we can go there too... but realize if one goes that route, to avoid sounding like an armchair quarterback we are going to need at least photo... if not video proof how (the collective) our technique is superior. I've got webspace and can host your stuff.

:D

salud!

I've already offered names, links and reasons why I felt the material was lacking. Since I actually was stupid enough to say that I thought some of my stuff was actually better, you can definitely call me on that one...

What you're going to find, though, is that my material is going to echo SouthNarc's (but I sure as hell don't look as good doing it. :D ). One of the reasons that I'm so adamant on recommending him as a trainer is that when I looked at his PSPs 2 or 3 years ago, I realized that he was already where I was going with the unarmed (and melee armed) material that I knew, and had fully integrated firearms into his methodology. Many people teach both, but as separate units that don't quite mesh cohesively. I know this makes me sound like a fanboy, but so be it.

Now if you want to see why the hell I like this stuff so much, get the Fighting Handgun DVD. Tell you what...you don't like it, I'll buy the damned thing off you. $40, money back if you don't like it...sounds like a no-brainer to me.

And if you actually want to see me in action, I can probably work something out. I'm sure you'll get a good laugh out of my grappling skills, too, as they're probably the worst thing in my repertoire. :D

[krept]

Ok, now I don't know what the hell the debate is about. When other sites with guys teaching a broad spectrum of things have their sites up then I'll probably nutride those. Either way... the best thing that I like about Demi IS the force x force stuff with simunitions. I DIG that stuff and wish all the time something like that would come out here. Airsoft isn't going to cut it for me.

BTW, I guess the reason why I never saw the vid at Shivworks before is that none of their stuff works on my work PC. At the apartment, no internet. The house has one but not for long. I'll check it asap....

OK if you're willing to buy that DVD off if it sucks, I'll get it sooner or later. I just checked out their ordering page, out of date phone #, they have a new one and I just left a message. (MD Tactical is the actual seller).

[ABCF]

On the topic of Demi's use of Simunitions....it is a violation of company policy to allow non-sworn law enforcement personnel into a Simunitions scenario. Not that I care and others ignore that policy as well, but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that Demi has some sort of special dispensation from the manufacturer to involve the poor, lowly citizenry with sims.:D

The 'drop on the deck and flop like a fish' grounded position was 'cutting edge' about 25 years ago. It is so far from an optimal that it is not even funny. Even if you were driven to the deck and had accessed your pistol, folding your legs at the ankles and extending your gun is a baaadddd idea.

If your 'name dropping' comments were directed towards me, allow me to retort. :nuts:

You mentioned Demi as being somehow unique because he incorporated striking from the ground, weapons, flashlights, OC and basic tactical concepts with firearms [slicing the pie, etc]. Rather than barrage you with a list of dozens of people around the country who do engage in such activities, I provided a rather short of list of trainers whom I expect most people would have some degree of name recognition with, whom I have personal knowledge of, and on who's curricula I feel quite comfortable commenting.

As far as Simunition vs Airsoft for force-on-force work, who cares? Both will accomplish the goal, provided the scenarios are well developed and the role players involved know their jobs. The place where Sims come into their own is when you are dealing with in-your-face/kissing distance fighting because they will hold up to abuse that shreds Airsoft guns. Again, that is way-off-label usage and Simunitions would stroke out if they watched such training, but, oh well.... :bounce01:

[krept]

the name dropping comment is just a general observation that I see on the techniques subsections on the firingline and the high road forums regarding firearms and it happens all the time on mixed martial arts forums. The good thing about the latter is people can climb into the same pit and find out how good someone is within limitations. Yeah, you always get the dim mak and eye gouge guys that won't step up because they'd kill or maim the other guy, but jeez... anyways....

I mentioned Demi because he's someone that I know of that teaches what I consider a more modern martial arts approach... AND he's got pics and videos of him training on his site. Sure there are other places that have firearms or other weapons or empty hand but he's got it all. Someone gives me another place that puts it together like that where I can show people and I'll reference that.

Is he the end all/be all? Nope. There are guys out here that would bury him, but they aren't exactly the nicest people, they aren't instructors and they certainly don't have websites to show people around the world what's going on. One other thing I do know is that Demi trains a LOT. He's not just sitting and resting on his laurels... NOT that the other guys do, but I can certainly see how it's easy for them to attain a level of proficiency and stop adapting... if he's using a technique from "25 years ago" and it isn't for a good reason (or especially if it's being taken out of context) and he's not willing to change, I'd be surprised.

Again, the more websites, videos, etc would be especially keen.

[Almadjian]

Didn't see anything really impressive on Demi's site. His "knife vs gun" clip received a grin. He's states that he's trained in the Filipino MA and what do I see on the only knife-related clip on his site? Nothing but an obvious attempt to see how much cardboard you can cut in one wild slash! :laugh01:

Anytime someone tries to put together a total system, I find it mediocre. I won't go to Gunsite to learn martial arts and I won't learn how to shoot in the dojo. It would be great to be able to do so. But such is never the case. Even our own SpecOps guys don't do that-they fly in different trainers and crosstrain all the time. They never stick with just 1 system knowing not 1 is the best, etc.

The arts are like a toolbox, the best thing on Demi's site was his reference to Bruce's JKD. Following such one assimilates techniques from various arts/instructors and continues to practice as realistically as possible.

Demi would be great for beginners as has been said. But for someone with some expertise/exposure to fighting, CQB ?

[krept]

Demi would be great for beginners as has been said. But for someone with some expertise/exposure to fighting, CQB ?

I think that kind of answered itself, like you intended.

I won't go to Gunsite to learn martial arts and I won't learn how to shoot in the dojo.

I think it's fairly safe to assume if people come here or other run of the mill sites looking for firearms or MMA instruction, they have a whole new world ready to open up and concepts like central axis relock and other cutting edge stuff that i have no idea about are a looong way off.

[Wylycoyte]

they have a whole new world ready to open up and concepts like central axis relock and other cutting edge stuff that i have no idea about are a looong way off.

If you think CAR is cutting edge, brother, do you need an edjamacation!

:duck:

[Almadjian]

I think it's fairly safe to assume if people come here or other run of the mill sites looking for firearms or MMA instruction, they have a whole new world ready to open up and concepts like central axis relock and other cutting edge stuff that i have no idea about are a looong way off.

Are you saying you're out of your league posting here? :)

I never come to forums for instruction, I come to them for fun. If you are coming to forums for instruction, due to, say, lack of finances to purchase some vids, let alone get some real training, then I agree, there are better forums.

[krept]

LOFL AAAARRRGGHHHHH

I'm definitely waaay out of my league posting here

[Wylycoyte]

What I dislike about CAR and why:

http://www.armslocker.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28465&page=2&pp=10

Oh, forgot, at least one more thing...

They encourage you to switch hands on the gun if someone's coming at you from the opposite side. While Glock juggling is impressive to watch, I seriously question its validity if you're in a chaotic, rapidly changing environment with possibly uneven or slippery terrain.

John in AR has some time in with CAR and Simunitions and hopefully he'll weigh in. I'm all for changing my mind if there's good evidence that I should do so.

[ABCF]

CAR is crap. Castle is a conman. Juggle away, me boyo, juggle away.:D

[Wylycoyte]

CAR is crap. Castle is a conman. Juggle away, me boyo, juggle away.:D

I love these little give and take discussions! :D

[ABCF]

I'm sorry....All systems are equally valid. We are all equal. There is no "Good" and there is no "Bad". :twoguns:


PS: CAR still sux. :blowup:

[Wylycoyte]

PS: CAR still sux. :blowup:

Begone, varlet, lest I dub thee derogatory!

[ABCF]

:laugh01:

Newspeak Definition #2:

Derogatory:

Any post by ABCF :argue:

[andy]

the fact that you COULD (ifyou could) teach better doesn't mean JACK if you AINT teaching) You are just indulging your ego, and that's ALL. It'sthe mark of a punk, actually.

[ABCF]

the fact that you COULD (ifyou could) teach better doesn't mean JACK if you AINT teaching) You are just indulging your ego, and that's ALL. It'sthe mark of a punk, actually.

And the point of your endless prattling would be....

While I'm sure this will be deleted, because it could be construed as 'derogatory' in that cute, flexible way words are defined around here, but do you have any sort of legitimate understanding about anything that you post?

I ask, only because any such level of mastery of the subjects that you attempt to post about is so severely lacking that it is both humorous and painful to read.

The lack of comprehension of the subject matter, coupled with your exceedingly poor command of the written word and the inability to regonize your own ineptitude, combine in a truly awe-inspiring fashion to ensure your status as one of the legendary trolls of the internet.

[Wylycoyte]

the fact that you COULD (ifyou could) teach better doesn't mean JACK if you AINT teaching) You are just indulging your ego, and that's ALL. It'sthe mark of a punk, actually.

Another "A+B=cheese dip" post. Ho hum.

[ABCF]

A sidekick of mine fessed up that he has a mess of Demi's tapes. I'll pick them up trhis afternoon and see what they are like.

I'll post titles later today and impressions once I've gone through them.

[ABCF]

Alrighty, I've got the following Demi Barbito titles on hand.:

Practical Tactical [which I have watched]
Killing Giants [Have watched]
Ballistic Flow [Have watched]
Critical Distance [Partly watched]
Empty Hands vs Knife [Not watched]
Straight Blast Stinger Sets [Not watched]

Impressions thus far,

The unarmed, knife and stick work is drawn very heavily from Paul Vunak's material. This is not unexpected considering that Demi has rank from PFS [Vunak's organization].
This material has a very distinct Filipino flavor drawing from Inosanto Blend [again, to be expected, given Vunak's background].

Barbito's body mechanics, particularly when weapons are involved, are pretty wide & sloppy. [Think generic FMA as opposed to Pekiti?]

He begins a lot of drills from Hubud, again typical FMA. At one point he is working triangle footwork with a step/slide motion....it again looks like very sloppy FMA.

When he grasps a rattan cane/baton for single stick work, he exposes a considerable punyo [butt], around 6-inches or so. This is generally considered bad form because it allows your opponent more opportunities to get on your stick and break you grip.


The drills and the fight scenarios all start from outside kicking range, with two 'fighters' dancing around, entering with a long range tool, straight blasting into trapping range, striking a series of three strikes and then pushing or throwing the aggressor away and running off. None of this is realistic in the slightest and fails to provide the student with essential skills to deal with the unexpected, up close attack.

When he establishes a neck clinch [off of a hubud drill], he folds hands over each other, rather than any sort of interlacing of the fingers. He does maintain good forearm position, though.

When he demonstrates his preferred defensive posture, he uses a classic Muay Thai 'high hands' guard, but when he is actually working almost every scenario & opther skillsets, he maintains a much lower open hand guard.

When he is shown doing livefire gun work, he is carrying CONDITION 3!!! This is insane.

However, the most damning thing that I observed is that the roleplayers simply stop attacking once the defender has begun his attack....

An example:

Two people square off and dance around....the good guy lauches some sort of low kick and immediately follows with a straight blast into trapping range.

Both the kick and the blast were notional, but the bad guy just sort of stands there and lets them occur.

If the bad guy fought back, or attempted to close distance himself, the inefficacy of the straight blast would be apparent.

Once in trapping range, the good guy does his series of three techniques, follows up with a push off and then turns and runs away.

Again, the bad guy just sort of stands there, receiving blows without maintaining any sort of forward drive or pressure...Not trying to damage the guy who is thumping on him.

Not very realistic stuff. Better than some, but still far below the level of performance that I'm willing to accept for my personal skills development.

Hell, my regular training crew deals with more aggressive scenarios and more committed bad guys and we ain't making anything more than a $20 'matfee' which goes to something nice for my wife for allowing us to take over the carport and beat the hell out each other, while offending the neighbors and screaming profanity every couple of weeks. :D

[Wylycoyte]

Hell, my regular training crew deals with more aggressive scenarios and more committed bad guys and we ain't making anything more than a $20 'matfee' which goes to something nice for my wife for allowing us to take over the carport and beat the hell out each other, while offending the neighbors and screaming profanity every couple of weeks. :D

Dude, I thought that WAS you and your wife thumping and screaming profanity, not the training group!

Is he not doing the interlaced finger thing for fear of finger breaks/dislocations? I'm pretty sure the last guy I worked a little plum position with did things that way as well.

I'm trying to remember how much stick Abon Baet leaves hanging out...I think he prefers about a palm width because he likes to hook with the butt. Abon's nickname is "punyo", so he uses that part of the stick quite a bit...Does Demi appear to be trying to do the same thing?

Abon Baet's site: www.garimot.com

[ABCF]

I'm familiar with the idea of hooking & striking with the punyo, but Demi never makes note of those attributes. You'll also find silat guys doing stick work who really like the exposed punyo. They tend to strike with the side [edge] of the stick protruding from below the fist rather than the butt, particulalry when they are doing their reinforced punch entry [main body of stick projecting towards the left, left hand grasping the right wrist, 6-inch section of stick protruding from the bottom the right fist...contact made with the 6-inch section of stick]...very nasty stuff.:D

The hand positioning for the clinch is, likewise, never discussed, simply demonstrated.

On the Critical Distance tape, Barbito makes mention that you should "forget toe-to-toe, this is nose-to-nose fighting". Then that start juist outside of largo range, low kick, straight blast, Headbutts, Knees, Elbows, Dumog, etc....

[ABCF]

Dude, I thought that WAS you and your wife thumping and screaming profanity, not the training group!

No, that's the rest of the time. :laugh01:

[krept]

interesting reviews, thanks. where do you guys train (city)? do you have photos or some vids of you guys going through drills and stuff... can host them on the web if you'd like.

cheers

[ABCF]

krept,

Regardless of what I have video of, and regardless of whether it is hosted on the web, my critiques of Demi's material should stand alone. If you truck his vids around to competant players in the appropraite field, you'll wind up with pretty much the same feedback.

If your lack of depth in the subject matter prevents you from giving the material a fair assessment, that's on you. But to pretend that anyone who does not have video footage on the web is not competant to evaluate material posted for all to see is foolish.

I'm not trying to make a buck selling videos online. I'm not spamming boards all over the net with "Boy, just got back in from training and let me tell you about our latest video release" garbage.

I have been a cop and I have been a soldier and I have been involved in integrated defensive skills training for a little while now. Some of what Demi presents is decent. A lot of it is repackaged Progressive Fighting Systems. Some of it is unrealistic. Some of it is pisspoor.

If you would like to discuss some of the points tha I mentioned, I'd love to hear it. But "Demi has vidoe clips online" is a pretty poor reason to endorse anything.

Hell, Paul Castle has video clips online. CAR is still a joke.

[krept]

I don't have the ability or depth to comment on your comments. No shame in that, I mean, should I say "I don't know what to say about the meat of your review because I have never taken stickfighting classes." I guess I could have but there would be a ton more comments like "I haven't trained enough to know the merits or fallacies of CAR but someone who is heavily involved (actively) in LE as well as weapons, MA etc. swears by it... there was a good discussion about it on ususalsuspect.net about two years ago or so but the info was lost and I don't feel like continuing it anyways."

If you say it sucks, is old news, cool, whatever. Just as you can debate the finer points of stickwork and I can't. This doesn't mean I don't have a slew of sticks from bloodsport.com and I don't bang them with my friends every so often... I just can't get that kind of training around here. I'm sure as hell willing to learn and spar, however.

I'm interested in pictures and video of your training because, well, they're worth many words. Interesting how you interpret my intentions. I could care less who has the best Kung-Fu or who can kick who's ass or who "looks" like a twig or the Michelin Man.

One good reason for a pic is so we can put a face to a name... I posted mine, several of em and Wiley has posted his, no big deal at all.

One reason for a vid is I'd like to see what kind of setup you have. Hell, we roll on carpet and grass, hit a heavybag in a dusty garage with tools laying around, smack sticks or hit a thai pad in a park, stuff like that... and not very often at that. We have no mats, no gis, nothing like that. We hardly do any drills at that. Might be able to learn stuff, get good ideas, hell, you never know.

Why do I want to know where you train? I dunno, just had a feeling it was near Atlanta.

And regarding Demi... I had a feeling that you knew a little more than would appear in your first post on this thread. If not, no biggie. What i do know is that he trains a LOT so if the question you asked earlier "do you train?" has any merit it should count for him as well... of course you could say that it's not the proper type of training that Mr. ABC or Prof. EFG does... or, heck, I guess even as good as you or Wiley does, so... jeez... it's not like I'm defending someone I even know, it's almost like I'm defending the reason why I even bring him up when I do (all, what, 3 times?) LOL.

I do have a question for you... when and under what circumstances did you first hear about "andy" and this website. Just kidding... ;)

As I said... thanks for the review. The only video I have seen from Demi is Firepower. I've got a copy if you'd like to check it out. I think it's good stuff for a BEGINNER as I've said time and time again. And just to clarify what I said earlier... when people come to websites looking for information about empty hand or handgun videos, I'd think they would tend to be beginners as those who already know where to look would probably exhaust those resources first, right? Thus, when people have asked before about stuff like that and I answer "Demi" it's a) because I don't know of many more people that have tapes on different stuff and b) because what I have seen of his approach regarding MA is comprehensive. Otherwise, the clear answer is "hey, save up $500 and visit this guy" or "check in the yellow pages for this art."

[krept]

And the CAR CRAp... Which is best, Weaver or Isosceles?* Whatever you need to be able to hit fast and accurately. If it works for them, cool. If not for you, cool. Again, that was mentioned only once and in reference to "new" techniques of which I have no idea (yeah, 3 years old is still kinda "new" to me). Funny how you guys keep going back to it ;) hmmmm....

So how about a pic of training? It's no big deal... here was me getting kicked in the balls, note the great technique there :D

http://www.armslocker.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31309

*Rhetorical question (for the humor impaired)

[ABCF]

krept,

I absolutely would be interested in checking out 'Firepower'.

If I misconstrued your earlier comments, I do apologize.

Dear God, let's not dredge up painful memories [Andy/Gunkid/the 168 other names of the Demented One has been burned into my medulla for somewhere around 9 years now...He goes away and, as soon as the DTs have subsided, he reappears...:D] This website got mentioned on a certain zombie forum, as I recall...:sidestep:

Nick makes some of the best sticks out there. The only ones that are slightly nicer are 4x as expensive and what's the point when you're going to be beating the hell out of them?

CAR is a hotbutton of mine. The system requires the shooter to contort his body into an unnatural position, with no ability to deal with incoming aggression and then teaches you to switch hands to deal with bad guys coming from different directions! This is begging disaster and will get someone killed. He's a foreigner with a funny accent and that has bought him a certain degree of leeway that should not have been extended.

Can I shoot from CAR? Sure. Have I been certified as a CAR Instructor? No. I've read through all of Castle's material and done a bit of livefire under the tutelage of a CAR Instructor...and it is a suboptimal solution to some very real problems.

I've been certified as an Applegate Point Shooting Instructor. Do I teach it? No. There are better ways to accomplish the needed goals.


Enough, I'm rambling. More after some sleep.

[Wylycoyte]

Why do I want to know where you train? I dunno, just had a feeling it was near Atlanta.

If he's near Atlanta, I'll be there with bells on. It's hard as hell to find committed people to train with in a realistic manner. Realistic, to me, includes training in different environments, with training weapons and the possibity of multiple opponents and atypical start signals...a stungun to the thigh, starter pistol going off several times or an airsoft pellet in the ass, for example. It also includes interview processes and trying to duplicate scenarios read about in crime reports.


And regarding Demi... I had a feeling that you knew a little more than would appear in your first post on this thread. If not, no biggie. What i do know is that he trains a LOT so if the question you asked earlier "do you train?" has any merit it should count for him as well... of course you could say that it's not the proper type of training that Mr. ABC or Prof. EFG does... or, heck, I guess even as good as you or Wiley does, so... jeez... it's not like I'm defending someone I even know, it's almost like I'm defending the reason why I even bring him up when I do (all, what, 3 times?) LOL.


I've already explained why I'm busting your balls on this, and, more than likely why ABCF is as well. If there's a choice of who to go to for material that could save your life, I think you should have the best and most objective reviews of the material you can get. You've actually mentioned him more than 3x...just about every time I or someone else posted something about ISR Matrix, force on force, etc...up came his name. I bit my tongue the first few times because I didn't have enough info, just some 2nd hand info. The more I see, though, the less I like.

He does train a lot, but does he train out? Does he look at the material of others? Doesn't look like it, or else I think there'd be more progression in his material. I've actually heard that before about one of the chief differences between stationary and mobile trainers...the mobile guys tend to train out more and their material changes. Guys who have a facility to run are so tied to it, working hard to keep the doors open and the lights on that they often just don't have time to keep up with innovations. There's also the matter of image...a change in curriculum or admission that there are better ways seems like weakness to some. Some people welcome that in a teacher, others get scared off.

Even with limited background in stickwork, Thai boxing or whatever, you should be able to look at a tape and see if someone's training partner is really trying to thump them or is just playing along for the camera. When you get called to the carpet as to why you keep recommending what looks like halfassed material, you make noise. "Interesting review". "Ill keep that in mind" and then throw his name back in the ring without caveat the next time someone asks for force on force info.
:headbang:

So yes, I WAS asking why you keep bringing this guy up, and you've answered. I do admire that Demi's attempting to integrate combatives and teach a weapons first approach. I just don't dig a lot of his methods or the few interactions I've had with him on the web. If his vids featured some aggressive hard-chargers in FIST gear beating him around while he attempted to fight them off long enough to grab a weapon, I'd likely be seconding your recommendation.

BTW...I'll be getting some copies of tapes in the near future, too. Found out that a friend of mine had been sandbagging them. When I asked, he found the tapes fair-to-middlin', citing examples similar to those discussed above. I believe he's got the Firepower tape as well...like you, Krept, he said it probably wouldn't be bad for beginners, but that's about it. Either way, I'll watch it and specifically look for things I like as opposed to being my usual curmudgeonly self. :p

[krept]

When you get called to the carpet as to why you keep recommending what looks like halfassed material, you make noise. "Interesting review". "Ill keep that in mind" and then throw his name back in the ring without caveat the next time someone asks for force on force info.


:D Wiley, you're being a sausage now man. Go to search, type in "Demi" in the field, then type in my username. You'll see how many times I talked about him and under what circumstances. I see now in one thread regarding force on force training that you brought up the Shivworks site but that was after I stopped following the thread. LOL @ me "making noise." What you think I got to hide man? My eggshell ego?

Well, now that you know why I keep bringing him up all zillions of times, we can get past that until next time... as far as why there aren't other guys online selling DVDs with clips to show themselves training, maybe they're too busy kicking ass instead of gossiping about other people ;) :p.

[andy]

More likely, they can't deliver, in my experience. Moon would have jumped at the chance to broaden his audience. To impress hell out of Americans, he wouldn't even have to devote any time to special Prep. To impress KOREANS, he had to train like hell for a couple of weeks, so that he could kill an 80 lb pig with a spear hand to its "armpit". 2 guys held it down, front leg outstretched, and Moon knelt at its side. The owner was throwing a party for his son, Moon heard about the pig, and asked the guy if he'd let him strut his stuff. He got half a dozen new students out of the demo. :-)

[Wylycoyte]

Well, now that you know why I keep bringing him up all zillions of times, we can get past that until next time... as far as why there aren't other guys online selling DVDs with clips to show themselves training, maybe they're too busy kicking ass instead of gossiping about other people ;) :p.

Or possibly training in systems so as to acquire proper context instead of recommending "cutting edge" techniques that they hadn't really played with. :p

But you're right, enough grabasstic maneuvers. You've seen some reviews and reasoning for my disparagement. I blasted CAR because I saw an instructor get punked out when someone came at him in a FIST suit and he tried using the CAR retention techniques, so I think that at least some of the criticism is justified there, too. When he used the retention position and elbow shield, he successfully fended off the attacker long enough to put rounds in him. One anecdote does not a valid study make, but seeing the same thing happen again and again seems to make certain systems or techniques "better" than others, at least for a given set of circumstances. And yes, I'm familiar with Mercop and his beliefs...

So...now that that's settled...anyone seen any of Sammy Franco's material? :D

[krept]

I don't understand, can you rephrase what you just said a couple different ways please? :D

(just so we are clear, and all...)

[Wylycoyte]

I don't understand, can you rephrase what you just said a couple different ways please? :D

(just so we are clear, and all...)

Interesting comment.

[ABCF]

05-16-2005, 01:35 PM

This message has been deleted by lucille. Reason: Derogatory in nature
-----------------


Just another example of that fair and even handed moderation. Gotta luv it. :shrugs:

[ABCF]

For Krept's edification, please find two pictures of moi.

Feel free to refer to whichever image is more pleasing when reading any of my ramblings in the future. :nope: :wavey:

[Wylycoyte]

Who knew Buddy Holly had such great tits? :D

[ABCF]

You'd be amazed what you can hide in a cheap suit....

Not Buddy, but Buddy....[url]www.sixstringsamurai.com/url]
:twoguns: :fullauto: :uzi:

[krept]

yikes guys

ABCF you have a PM regarding that vid. Anyone else who wants to check it out can, we'll just send it around.

cheers

[ABCF]

Krept,

Thanks, but during my exile a friend advised me that he has the Firepower tape and it's already en route to my humble abode. I'll post some impressions once I've had a chance to watch it, but it'll be a few weeks, as I've in the middle of prepping gear for the NTI prior to heading out this Saturday for a week+ road trip [Farnam TacMed class, NTI XV, Blade & back home].