View Full Version : Electonic ID Cards...
DaRkWoLf
05-13-2005, 10:33 PM
I read this and red lights started going off:
http://news.com.com/Senate+approves+electronic+ID+card+bill/2100-1028_3-5702505.html?part=rss&tag=5702505&subj=news
As good as the intentions seem now, Im certain this will be used for very harmfull things, beyond civi control, in the near future.
What do you all think?
I can see nothing good comming of this... Mabye this is even the begining of the end, or mabye the patriot act counted as that.
g22toter
05-13-2005, 11:13 PM
what next travel restrictions without proper paperwork and military manned check points. Man where is our constitutional freedoms going?
Electronic ID cards are well on the way to beng superceded by the AVID [ID implant] technologies. Earlier this year, I spent a few days driving cross country with a rep for the German corporation responsible for instituting the technology within the Mexican government and the timeline that he was discussing was frigthening, to say the least.
long before such things occur here, some will MAKE shtf, and Big Brother won't HAVE the resources to bother with such crap. He'll be trying not to starve, get gassed in his bunker, blown up in his car, etc.
DaRkWoLf
05-14-2005, 04:20 PM
long before such things occur here, some will MAKE shtf, and Big Brother won't HAVE the resources to bother with such crap. He'll be trying not to starve, get gassed in his bunker, blown up in his car, etc.
I wish the american populace had enough sense to do that.
There are enough out there to take all the fun out of it for them. But all the cops/nat. guard/soldiers/etc that will die trying to force this on us, will just be considered collateral damage. Our leaders dont give a damn about you LEO's, soldiers, etc, any more than they care about us "civilians". I dont even care if you believe me. We'll find out soon enough, and I really dont care about you anyway.
I see most people going along with it, just like the good little sheep they are.
F'em. I am sick and tired of trying to warn others of this. I dont even try anymore.
The citizens of the United States have always gone along with government infrignment of individual rights. This nation is composed of a vast majority who will do nothing so long as they have food in their bellies and a roof over their head or, even more pathetic, the illusion of the potentiality of having food in their bellies and a roof over thier head.
People will accept national ID just as we have accepted the "PATRIOTUSA" act, all the gun control legislation that has come done the pike, and all the other drivel that has been enacted into law by morally bankrupt and spineless politicos that an ignorant, easily manipulated and uncaring public have elected into office.
Rich Z
05-15-2005, 01:35 PM
The problem is that the government is smart enough to know that they just have to do what they want in baby steps and it WILL get done. Every step is small enough that the majority of the people are going to think "well, it's such a LITTLE infringement, and is it really worth taking up arms over?". That is the way it will be done. One little step at a time until it is all over with but the screaming. And then it won't matter anyway.
Just watch the way it works. The "compromises" that mean you only give up half of what they wanted instead of all of it that time. Next time they will compromise for yet another half of what is left. And so on and so on......
Aslan
05-15-2005, 03:54 PM
Here's the rub...People such as Andy, who has repeatedly posted in the past about getting fake ID's and using them in check schemes, etc, coupled with the terrorist idiots out there have played right into making this a reality.
Eliminate all the $$ lost to idiots doing what Andy has repeatedly claimed to be able to easily do, and it becomes a little harder to sell the national id issue.
Once people feel an economic impact and are promised some relief, the sell is much easier. Throw in the danger, real or otherwise, posed by the terrorist wackjobs, and viola here we are.
If anything, we should be pissed at the legion of idiots doing what Andy has touted.
(note to mods, I'm calling the people following Andy's advice on this matter idiots, not any specific person or persons.)
Take care of those morons and seal the borders, need for id pretty much a moot point.
:devil:
National ID card is what the powers that be want. If we didn't have common criminality as an excuse the .gov would create an issue where the sheeple would demand it.
Any suggestions about how to evade it?
RIKA
Any suggestions about how to evade it?
RIKA
I am going to make a prediction here. I will follow what I consider to be a logical chain of events. YMMV.
I believe the national ID will be temporary. I will evade it by simply not getting it. I never was one to give a flying f@#! what the .gov wants anyway.
There will be another "attack", maybe with WMDs, maybe conventional.
People will see that "terrorists" can make these IDs too, so something else will be demanded by the sheeple, to prevent any more "attacks" by "terrorists". All will be done in the name of peace and safety, you know.
Enter Digital Angel Verichip. Cant be forged. Can't be removed. Cant buy, can't sell, cant work without it, all in the name of national security.
For me, this is shtf, even if I am wrong and it occurs peacefully. I simply refuse to have anything to do with it. That is a decision I made long ago and its irreversable.
DaRkWoLf
05-15-2005, 09:50 PM
Enter Digital Angel Verichip. Cant be forged. Can't be removed. Cant buy, can't sell, cant work without it, all in the name of national security.
For me, this is shtf, even if I am wrong and it occurs peacefully. I simply refuse to have anything to do with it. That is a decision I made long ago and its irreversable.
I concur with you on that one.
T. Daves
05-16-2005, 12:27 AM
You talk about terrorists making these cards what about the aholes out there helping the bastards. Did anybody hear about the guy in New Jersey(I think) that had all the fake badges. The LOEs should have taken himout back of his place and put one in his head.
Rich Z
05-16-2005, 03:55 AM
I think the implanted chip is too big of a gulp for people to take in the near future, no matter WHAT happens. I think it will be slipped in on the newer generation. New born babies will be automatically implanted, "for the protection of the children", and that will be that. Rumors I have heard already is that mothers should NOT let a newborn baby out of their sight for ANY reason at a hospital. And I heard this from rather level headed people, not the usual conspiracy rumor mongers.
People growing up with an idea will find it easier to swallow, and I certainly would do it that way if it were my decision to make. Question is, how patient are the powers about when this needs to be done? They do seem to have a long timeline on things. Sort of makes you wonder if there really is a long term agenda being followed, or if this is just naturally the way that human beings placed in power try to consolidate ever more power under their control.
Heck, for all we know, that process started when the smallpox vaccinations were mandatory. How would we know for certain? Do we really know the extent of this type of technology?
The thing is, suppose you need the ID chip to DO anything of GO anywhere? What then? You already can't board a commercial airliner without a government approved ID card. They've now set a precedent. Your movements CAN be restricted unless you have "your papers". Quite frankly, I don't see myself ever flying again. But suppose that ratchets down to all public modes of transportation, then to your own private conveyance. The engine won't start unless your ID chip is active. I believe this sort of technology exists now and would be simple to implement. Doorways that won't open without it. Can't cash a check without it. Can't buy anything without the ID. Automated scanners would handle everything.
Tell you one thing that would be a sure bet with the above scenario: Incidents of theft would go through the roof as people who refused to comply found that this was the only way to survive. Those people would have to STEAL everything they needed. Which, of course, would give the government the reason they needed to turn the screws even tighter.
Seems pretty bleak, doesn't it?
Seems pretty bleak to me too but I won't take the implanted chip and will evade the ID card as best I can. Such govt actions would certainly cause a strong negative reaction among a lot of people.
RIKA
The way the program was initiated in Mexico involved getting senior governmental types to have the implants, to show that it was not dangerous, that it was 'socially responsible', etc.
From there it leaches over to the upper classes, as a mark of status. Then it is bestowed upon the chosen for certain privledges. [Circuses]
Then, as it becomes more common on the upper end and the middle class begins buying in, governemental programs for the lower end begin implementation for access. [Bread]
All that's left is the middle class and they are absorbed, one way or another.
Bread & Circuses, baby, bread & circuses.....
And the ringmaster is the Trunk Monkey.
RIKA
And the ringmaster is the Trunk Monkey.
Dagnabit! I think she's hit upon the missing clue. :bow01: There it was, right in front of my face and I couldn't see it. I always knew that my weakness for animals would be my undoing. :noevil:
Wylycoyte
05-16-2005, 04:21 PM
Now where did that bloody top hat get off to? :D
I think the implanted chip is too big of a gulp for people to take in the near future, no matter WHAT happens.
I am sure this is true for people we know. But look at the population as a whole.
Most so-called patriots are the "my country, right or wrong", "we must get behind the prez, no matter what", "dont question the war, thats antimilitary", "conspiracy theorists dishonor the 9/11 victims" type. THey cannot think for themselves, .gov thinks for them.
What you say may be true for ppl that value freedom over safety, but I see the population as a whole accepting it, because I see us resisters as being a small minority. I do not believe I am being overly pessimistic (sp?)here, but trying to be as unbiased as possible, I see people as being too self-absorbed to really care.
Tell you one thing that would be a sure bet with the above scenario: Incidents of theft would go through the roof as people who refused to comply found that this was the only way to survive. Those people would have to STEAL everything they needed. Which, of course, would give the government the reason they needed to turn the screws even tighter.
Sorry, not with RFID chips, they wont. Pass a scanner with stolen pants and you are done for.
ABCF
What timetable was the German talking about? How long have we got?
Rich Z
05-16-2005, 04:39 PM
The thefts would NOT be from establishments. They would be person to person. Home breakins would become very commonplace. Suppose it gets bad enough that people can't even buy groceries without the chip in place? Do you think people will just allow themselves to starve to death? No, they will steal the food they need.
I think this could easily become the straw that will break the camel's back.
I'm certain that somebody will find a way to deactivate those RFID chips. Once those things get going there will be jillions of them to have to keep up with.
RIKA
People will get killed, eyeball or finger cut out/off for biometric ID. Best forget the entire Idea. Many thousands will start shtf, rather than take the mark of the beast.
DaRkWoLf
05-16-2005, 05:45 PM
mark of the beast.
And I thought you dispized religion of any sort. Now your taking christianities "mark of the beast" at face value. Interesting...
The thefts would NOT be from establishments. They would be person to person. Home breakins would become very commonplace. Suppose it gets bad enough that people can't even buy groceries without the chip in place? Do you think people will just allow themselves to starve to death? No, they will steal the food they need.
I think this could easily become the straw that will break the camel's back.
I think if someone had started talking to me about this subject 10 years ago, I would have slowly backed away from them, never taking my eyes off them until I was OUT OF THERE! Different story today.
Anyway, the RFID chips will take care of that. They will be put into everything except the actual food itself. Steal a loaf of bread, but dont take the wrapper
These tags are being used now.
Stolen items will still have tags, and when the tag is reported stolen, you will be tracked down, no problem. You may be passing scanners and not even know it.
For its part, Alien Technology says its RFID tags can be read up to 15 feet away. "When we talk about the range of these tags being 3 to 5 meters, that's a range in free space," said Tom Pounds, a company vice president. "That's optimally oriented in front of a reader in free space. In fact if you put a tag up against your body or on a metal Rolex watch in free space, the read range drops to zero."
But what about a more powerful RFID reader, created by criminals or police who don't mind violating FCC regulations? Eric Blossom, a veteran radio engineer, said it would not be difficult to build a beefier transmitter and a more sensitive receiver that would make the range far greater. "I don't see any problem building a sensitive receiver," Blossom said. "It's well-known technology, particularly if it's a specialty item where you're willing to spend five times as much."
http://news.com.com/2010-1069-980325.html
People say alot of things when their belly is full. Unless there is an overpowering conviction to reject the implant, they will fold, give up, when they get hungry, or when their kids get hungry. Death is preferable to taking the mark.
Rich Z
05-16-2005, 09:32 PM
I think you would have a tough sell convincing a lot of people that this is the "mark of the devil". People said the same thing about the social security number, remember? How many of you here DON'T have a SSN?
But, how old were you when you got one issued?
The only reason I had a SSn issued, at age 18, was because I was going into the Army.
Contrast that with my children, whose SSN arrived before the hospital bills. :(
T. Daves
05-16-2005, 10:14 PM
The reason they issue SSN at birth now is so some low life illegal immigrant can buy it to work here.
I think you would have a tough sell convincing a lot of people that this is the "mark of the devil". People said the same thing about the social security number, remember? How many of you here DON'T have a SSN?
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead;
Revelation 13:17 and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, [even] the name of the beast or the number of his name.
No one has their ssn implanted or tatoo, so they can buy/sell.
But thats OK, It's not up to me to convince anyone.
DaRkWoLf
05-16-2005, 10:35 PM
Im not christian, and this whole mark of the beast bit may come to be true and it may not; we'll see soon enough. I can care less what it comes from, my plan of action is still the same, which is "hell no!"
Dad and I have talked about it though. Plans for when/if it comes around are in the works. Its bothering him a little bit too.
Dont like this one bit...
stevenms2008
05-17-2005, 08:36 AM
the only good thing about electronic IDs is it gets you 20% off soylent green :)
the only good thing about electronic IDs is it gets you 20% off soylent green :)
Yeppers but one independent/non PC thought and you become solyent green.
RIKA
Almadjian
05-17-2005, 07:05 PM
I've heard that these chips are the size of a small grain of rice and being implanted in newborns, some prisoners, and elderly. Also that they may be injected, not surgically implanted. I also have heard that a powerful magnetic pulse can f#$% one up, so I think that getting rid of them won't be too difficult initially.
Nevertheless, what will you do without one? They will make it impossible to function in society without. No ability to bank, purchase, travel, etc.
What if it were a federal crime to tamper with one's national ID chip?
Rich Z
05-17-2005, 07:39 PM
I'm sure counterfeit chips will become a booming business. Ones with a "dial-an-identity" capability will be all the rage. Penalties wil be stiff, but then again so is dealing in drugs and look where that is today. If there is a market, there will be a supplier.....
Possibly portable ID scramblers will become popular as well.
And you have to wonder how many "oops" situations will arise. I wonder if the computer system running this will be as reliable as the NICS system. When it goes down, will ALL of commerce and travel just STOP? What happens if you get ID'd as being someone else? What sort of hoops will you have to jump through to get that resolved?
As far as magnetic fields, will they then outlaw MRI exams?
Heck, I think right now, someone coming out with a reliable DETECTOR to see if somehow YOU got one put inside you would make a MINT in sales. Hell, just set one up at a gun show and charge a buck or two to be tested and you would walk away with your pockets filled with money.
And you have to wonder how many "oops" situations will arise. I wonder if the computer system running this will be as reliable as the NICS system. When it goes down, will ALL of commerce and travel just STOP?
I think they will use parallel computing. When a system goes down, the rest take over.
What is Parallel Computing?
Traditionally, software has been written for serial computation:
To be executed by a single computer having a single Central Processing Unit (CPU);
Problems are solved by a series of instructions, executed one after the other by the CPU. Only one instruction may be executed at any moment in time.
In the simplest sense, parallel computing is the simultaneous use of multiple compute resources to solve a computational problem
http://www.llnl.gov/computing/tutorials/parallel_comp Covers the basics.
never happen, guys. Too many oppose it (violently so if need be) There's millions of people doing biz without gov't approval. Something ALWAYS gets 'agreed upon" to take the place of money. Cigarettes and stamps do so in prison. .22lr ammo may become the new "dollar".
Aslan
05-31-2005, 04:54 PM
unfortunately it's all the fake id's and identity theft that is fueling some of the push towards electronic ID's.
It's the people using bogus id's to do check fraud or credit card fraud.
ultimately it won't be too easy to fool, as the chip, biometric data and a remote database will all be involved. All three must agree or you will be targeted as having a bogus id.
Not so much parallel computing, but clusters of reliable fault tolerant systems will make it possible.
Every time a business gets ripped off or someone is a victim of identity theft, this becomes an easier sell.
Stop the criminals and the issue goes away. (or at least becomes harder to sell to the general public.)
:devil:
Terry G
05-31-2005, 08:25 PM
Baby Boomers. Yeah, I mean you. Fourty something to fifty something. Look at your left shoulder. See that little faded scar from being vaccinated? How tough was it to get your parents to agree to it? I didn't think so. There will be no real backlash against this. The populace hasn't really tried to stand up to the powers that are (I won't call them our Government) since the Sixties and the Seventies. You can't see the difference between then and now? Why ARE we still in Iraq? If it was for oil, why are our gas prices higher than ever? If it wasn't for oil, what the Hell was it for? Hussein presented a world threat? To whom? And why should I care as long as it wasn't us? Our common, everyday citizen doesn't have the backbone of the people that were called "Hippies". I wasn't one, I wore a Uniform, but say what you wan't, they had commitment and they had balls, right or wrong. Today people want to form encounter support groups and provide "counseling" to be people that are "distraught" over world events. Precisely bull****. I can still go anywhere I want and say George W. Bush is a Horses's ass or Kerry is a big, fat fake, and get away with it. How long until that kind of statement is a form of "terrorist threat?" We still have the power to stop this kind of thing, but only if we can convince "Joe- go -along -with-the- flow" that this much government is too much government.
Terry, go to your fridge and have a beer on me. :beer:
somebody will get SERIOUS about breaking guys out of prison. The first few will break out dozens more. Just that will require thousands of more guards be hired. when some of them are silently shot at night, and the breakout happens ANYWAY, we'll SEE how popular THAT job becomes. :-) Hey, some of them might get followed home and dealt with THERE, too. Never know what might happen. Might even happen at some courthouses and at the state legislature. Some guys just get plain hateful at times.
DaRkWoLf
06-02-2005, 02:13 AM
somebody will get SERIOUS about breaking guys out of prison. The first few will break out dozens more. Just that will require thousands of more guards be hired. when some of them are silently shot at night, and the breakout happens ANYWAY, we'll SEE how popular THAT job becomes. :-) Hey, some of them might get followed home and dealt with THERE, too. Never know what might happen. Might even happen at some courthouses and at the state legislature. Some guys just get plain hateful at times.
I doubt there will be any prison breaking. I doubt the relatively inert american populace will do too much in the first place. The citizens that do will be KILLING the people breaking fellons out of jail.
No one likes felons, unless one's lifestyle involves being a 'hoodrat I guess.
how will they even know wtf they ARE, hmm? :-) You are a fool, dude.
DaRkWoLf
06-02-2005, 02:46 AM
No one will waste the time in the first place. No one will bother and no one will care.
Destroying the source is more important anyway.
Id love to see a 3rd person perspective of the aftermath if a felon called me a fool to my face.
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