Any thoughts on Knife Defense?

[ABCF]

Anyone have any ideas as to what needs to occur when dealing with knives?

I've seen a number of different approaches to the problem of edged weapon assaults. Some good, some bad and some that could've been developed by a keyboard commando working as a fry cook at MacDonalds while living in a halfway house for disadvantaged rejects from the MotherShip...:nyah:

[Coyote]

Dont really like the idea of defending myself with a knife for several reasons, but first and foremost:

If you are attacked by a random person on the street, its a destinct possibility they are a needle user. Also, if your like me (working in a workshop) and have small cuts on your hands fairly often (hey, it happens), getting someone elses blood on you could mean a long, drawn out death over the next 10-15 years.

Besides that I think many blunt weapons are better for defense. I think a one shot stop with a knife (unless maybe you carry around a bowie?) is unlikely, and if you were close enough to try for one, he could stab you with his own blade, too.

Plunging a knife into someone also seems a little bit... harder than pulling the trigger or whacking them on the head with something. Maybe thats just me though.

[Aslan]

Are you asking about defending with or from?

:devil:

[ABCF]

Aslan, I was asking about dealing with an edged weapons assault. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

And, yes, Coyote, I agree...sticking a knife into another human being is much more visceral than merely shooting someone. Particularly given how hard people are to kill, you'd most likely have to pump the knife into them like a sewing machine to render any sort of phsyiological effect.

[brass hammer]

well,ABCF![glad your back, friend!],,, have fear, of the blade! for in the determined/trained hand,,,,,,your 'toast'!,,,,,plan on gittin' cut,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,NOT STABBED!

distanace is the best, anything you can 'utilize' at hand[i.e. your HAT!] as a shield/blocking tool is better than just gittin' cut/stuck.


a very good question, as there are a numerate strikes/points on the human body to kill 'QUICKLY' with but a single thrust/slash


i'll let my esteemed FELLOW members opine!
[as i wouldn't sleep well at night,knowing [I'VE] had any bearing on you
becoming a blood-thirsty blade man from UNPERSON-VILLE] :dgrin:

[brass hammer]

you know, when i was a kid[10-12] there was a 'rough-neck' whose name was
'rudy wertz',,,,[no ****] he told me a bar-fight he was involved in[i was scarred ever since]HA!


seems he was 'drinkin' at a waterin' hole and peeling/eating an apple with a simple PEN-KNIFE [at the bar,next to some squeeze,,{his words}

and some BIG DRUNK BASTARD was going to 'whip his ass' cuz' he was ,sitting next to his woman, well, rudy cracked a loaded beer across his head, and, got to his feet[off the bar-stool,,,ALWAYS A SOUND MANUVER :nyah: ]
when mister whip-ass regained 'composer' and PRESSED the attack
'rudy' [with apple-peelin' pen knife in hand ] would SLASH his every move[every TIME HE MOVED!] only about a 1/4"-1/2" deep,,,, well the fellow bar-patrons finally moved in and shut him down,,,,BEFORE HE WHITTLED MISTER
BAD-ASS away to nothing but BLEEDING SHREDS!

[Hard Rock]

Truths about a knife fight.

1. YOU WILL get cut.
2. It will get bloody and messy.
3. YOU WILL GET CUT.
4. you are much more likely to die from a knife stab wound than a gunshot wound.
5. YOU WILL GET CUT.
6. the fight will be short, and fast... most knife fights don't last more than 10 seconds.
7. YOU WILL GET CUT.

Get the idea? Two things you can do. Back off, get anything but a knife and pummel the crap out of your attacker. The other option is to go in, take the hits and make the perp pay with his life for it.

Mike

[Almadjian]

To defend oneself against the blade, in my opinion, puts one at a crossroad. 1) You stay away from the blade and use another recourse, (as was suggested by the above posters). 2) You learn bladework, thereby enabling you to defend yourself better if proficient, (also becoming more aware of what your opponent has in mind).

1) Shy away: rules of thumb--a) distance, b) improvised weapons to create distance, c) attack/neutralize the blade (FMA="defang the snake"), d) if grappling, (i.e. really close) grab the knife hand at the wrist (where a watch should be) and DON'T LET GO!. Then do your best to knee elbow, etc. your attacker to either subdue him or stall till help can come.

2) Begin training with the blade--depends on what style of blade you choose, which depends on a) your life style and b) the legalities of where you live.

I use a blade a lot in my daily life and have carried one every day for years--guess that old Boy Scout habit never died out. In the city I carry a smallish blade for everyday chores, etc. I would recommend this for everyone. I like a fixed blade and not a folder. A sub-2 inch blade is relatively innocuous. I won't look like a criminal in court if ever I happen to need to defend myself with it--can't say that for a big Benchmade or Spyderco folder.

Before tapes, I would recommend "The Sicilian Blade". An excellent little book that describes (if you don't concentrate on how poorly drawn the pictures are) in detail how to become proficient with a blade. A must have.

I would recommend videos from James Keating (his reverse grip series is outstanding). I really like his now-defunct Pushdagger video. Southnarc has a new DVD pushing Hideaway knives, (HAK they're available at www.hideawayknives.com). These little knives are superb. They would be my #2 choice for knife work in the city. #1 would be a real (short not long) La Griffe by Fred Perrin, not Emerson, available from www.Szaboinc.com.

[Wylycoyte]

I actually found James Keating's tape to be the weakest of everything I've seen of his. The movements are way too open, IMO, he teaches the "speed rock" with a knife, the opponents are pretty static as opposed to being dynamic and aggressive. There is a lot of weirdness with breaking the angle of the wrist and wing chun-style circular deflections and slashing the forearm with the push dagger as opposed to just charging in, jamming or jerking the intended target off balance and hammering away like a Singer sewing machine.

[Almadjian]

I agree. I just recommended it because it gives someone beginning to learn bladework a good foundation, (IMHO). What would you recommend for beginners? Your Singer description is what could happen in a normal fight and I feel that people should be aware of it. I don't believe that is the best tactic, however and would not recommend it.

[ABCF]

FYI, Cheap HideAways are available now for $69. Gotta love that pricepoint.:D

[Wylycoyte]

I agree. I just recommended it because it gives someone beginning to learn bladework a good foundation, (IMHO). What would you recommend for beginners? Your Singer description is what could happen in a normal fight and I feel that people should be aware of it. I don't believe that is the best tactic, however and would not recommend it.

I'd recommend it highly if you've got a short blade, actually. It works on everyone from beginners to advanced FMA people. Slip some motorcycle helmets and cups on and give it a whirl. Longer weapons lend themselves more to a largo mano range with the accompanying zoning footwork, as well as the ability to do serious damage to any limb they cleave into.

For beginning bladework I'd rate SouthNarc's 2 (soon to be 3) knife tapes very highly, along with some of Kelly McCann/Jim Grover's material. If Bob Kasper's Gung Ho Chuan material is available, I'd look at that, too. Basic hubud and knife tapping are also good, along with practicing pekiti take offs and simple male/female triangle zoning footwork. Watching "American Me" for additional inspiration can help, too. Some basic boxing tapes will also provide decent material, as a lot of it overlaps pretty neatly with knifework. About the only book I can recommend off the top of my head is "Put Em Down, Take Em Out" from Don Pentecost.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873644840/qid=1117045515/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-2894024-0525750?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[gripper]

I've had people come after me with knives. I've defended myself,on occasion with knives-sometimes one of my own;other's when they suddenly became "accessib;e" to me. That siad;I was LUCKY As HELL to still be alive and ticking along,becaue I am not some kind of uber-knife man. For me,boxing type movements&blows(with the knife as my "fist")got me through.Individual milage may vary;we've all got physical and mental differences thatcan shape the outcomes.

[andy]

better to work on hand to hand, and carry a gun. in most places, unless you are a felon, it's JUST as illegal to carry a USEFUL blade as it is to carry a gun. A 4 ft long walking stick is 10x as good a defensive weapon. Real kicking ability is worth FAR more than a 2" bladed knife.

[gripper]

Think of it as another tool in the box.You may not carry a knife,but there are times when you gotta improvise.While training physically and working on your H2H/firearms skills,it is somethuing you can incorporate into the skill set.
A knife in and of itself is not the sole answere to everything,any more than mastery of a single offensive/defensive movement is.Hey its another option in some situations.Use your unarmed skill to survive long enough to upgrade to a blade...to a knife ... to a pistol...to a rifle....
Besides;there are people involved in various bits of martial bladecraft no one should take lightly.Let them any where near your comfort zone andbad things will happen.

[Almadjian]

"Useful" is an arbitrary term. I can carry a knife into many casinos and stores here where guns are illegal, and where a walking stick would look out of place unless I were old with a limp.

Why just stick to HTH when you could have a weapon? :rolleyes:

I carry a knife because I use one a lot. If such were not the case I could see not carrying one or if one were not in a knife-friendly environment (I'm not). However, if you could carry one, why not? Surely better than just HTH when a gun isn't an option. .

[andy]

you can't carry a USEFUL knife.My leg is a LOT longer than your arm with a pissant 3" blade. :-) "armed' is a state of MIND, you know. Harry told one of his students once:'John is more armed with just his stiffened finger than most people are with a machete".

[andy]

Only YOU know if your knee really hurts you. I"ve had nobody give me or my stick a second glance. They let guys in prison have canes.

[gripper]

Aw ****!,not this stuff again!....
Andy,I'm bnot breaking your balls,although I am temoeted.That said;NO ONE is 100%,100% of the time.
I've had a (wide) range of experience at H2H,and clich range encounters.I also had a boxing and martial arts background(Japanese,Korean and others).Guess what?Sometimes people get lucky,and "hit you where you ain't".Thankfuilly,that was ring stuff,not the other situations I was involved in.And,you know;I was never regretting having something that I did not use All OF THE TIME...hey,there's a time for a bigger hammer,and times when helping others "get the point" are desirable.If nothing else,it can give you options.And Like I said earlier,"improvising"a sharp pointy can happen as well;wheter its involves taking someone else's,or grabbing what's handy/available.
LOng legs? Maybe. Good reach ,speed and power?Hey,you can't be bull****ting 100% of ther tuime,anymore than you can be at your best100% of the time.Are you un-beatable,or unkillable?Hell,nobody is.

[brass hammer]

THANKS, GRIPPER! as i was kinda wondurin'
about our dreastest of friend,,,,,,,,,ol'BOY MISTER [160].

the peaceful/pleshant comfort of just his MERE PRESANCE is an simbalance of comfort to his 'MASSES'

[if I did not mis-spell a single word in this post,,,,well then KIDS!!!!


I'M -OFF FOR CONGRESS!!!,,,,,, goverment-style, DONNNNCHA-KNOW!] :bounce:

[KCtreeguy]

I think it goes something like this:

1 skilled combatant and 1 unskilled = 1 goes to the hospital, 1 goes to the morgue.
2 skilled combatants = 1 goes to the hospital, 1 goes to the morgue.


Fights with blades are the worst kind of ugly.

[Aslan]

pretty much right on the head.

Also ignore any bs about a "useful blade". Even the shortest of blades can do serious damage if used properly.

A lot of tissue is elastic, which means you can jab and slash with a very small blade and cause a lot of destruction.

Take your thumb and press into skin. Now imagine a 1/4" blade sticking out past the end of your thumb - how deep or how much tissue would you be able to cut?

Any size knife is useful - or at least can be. In fact a short knife can be an advantage if your opponent is unaware of it.

When faced with an opponent who has a knife, you will get cut. You do have some control over how badly and where.

:devil:

[brass hammer]

pretty much right on the head.

Also ignore any bs about a "useful blade". Even the shortest of blades can do serious damage if used properly.

A lot of tissue is elastic, which means you can jab and slash with a very small blade and cause a lot of destruction.

Take your thumb and press into skin. Now imagine a 1/4" blade sticking out past the end of your thumb - how deep or how much tissue would you be able to cut?

Any size knife is useful - or at least can be. In fact a short knife can be an advantage if your opponent is unaware of it.

When faced with an opponent who has a knife, you will get cut. You do have some control over how badly and where.

:devil:

I AGREE!,,, RIGHT DOWN TO THE BLOODY GROUND!!!,,,,FRIENDS :cool:

[MileHighSailor]

I carried a Cold Steel Safe Keeper III in my boot top when I still wore a gunbelt to work. Thank God I never had to use it, but when someone is on top of you, two inches of sharp metal in the rib cage will most definitely make them want to NOT be on top of you anymore. Aslan is right on the money....while, I would rather get nailed with a 2" blade than a 12" blade, the thought of any foreign object entering my body (other than a shot at the doctor) is something I think I could do without experiencing. I have been stabbed with a junkie's dirty needle, and while both of us went to the hospital, I still have 12 months to go before I know I'm totally safe. The one major factor that will get you through a violent (and by violent, I mean downright primal) attack, is mindset. I'm not a small person by any standard, and that scrawny little meth-head almost ate my lunch. What separated the two of us, wasn't the various tools on my belt, it was the fact that I was NOT going to lose. All of the fancy H2H training that my department had paid for helped some, but PPCT didn't work. It all boiled down to mindset.....that and the fact that no matter how high you are, a 1911 to the back of the head rings your bell. I hope that I never again have to fight like I did that night, but if I do, I'm pretty damn sure that I won't be the one going to the morgue. That's not cockiness talking, it's the fact that I resolved long ago, that I WILL go home everyday in the same condition and with no more holes than I started out with that morning. Fighting with anyone no matter what kind of weapon they have sucks, and nothing short of a squad of blood thirsty Jarheads on your six will make it suck any less. The thing to remember, is that you don't bleed, and you don't hurt. If he knocks out your teeth, swallow them and keep fighting. Kick, bite, claw, punch....do whatever it takes to survive. The bad guy, NOT you will die in that filthy, stinking alley.

[Wylycoyte]

Cold Steel has a sale on Safekeeper III seconds at present. 3 for $30.

Its too bad that you didnt find what ****e PPCT was until now, but at least youre alive to find something better. About the only thing I've seen from it that I like is the brachial stun.

[brass hammer]

ATTENTION,!!!,,,MILEHIGHSAILOR !!!

YER' pretty ****IN' COOL, BROTHER!!! :madeuce: