How much of holy books is metaphorical?

[krept]

Reading the thread about Cain had me wondering...

I have seen many scientists attempt to explain happenings in the Bible in terms of the natural phenomenon just as I have seen people of faith attempt to explain occurrences in the natural world in terms of their religious paradigm.

When I read the holy books, I confess that I simply cannot accept some instances as factual, but rather they are intended to be more metaphorical in nature... kind of like analogies or parables meant to teach.

This has always been a difficult discussion for me to have (in person) with people that take scripture as the literal truth. Many times they fear not being able to answer sharp questions from an atheist or simply don't want be put on the spot. On the other end of the spectrum, there are also what I feel are flaws in the logic of an atheist regarding the nature of life and the universe.

So, given this... what is your opinion regarding the holy books? Should they be taken literally, as law or more metaphorically, like guidance?

[DaRkWoLf]

I believe that they should be taken metaphoricaly.

But thats just me, I guess its not a religion if you diidnt take some parts literally with rituals to accompany them.

[Kent]

The only one I am familiar with is the Bible, so I can give you some sort of answer.

You ask a very broad question, but I think I knowwhat you are getting at. If not, could you be more specific?

It is both literal history, prophetic, and very heavy in symbolism. But the symbolism is consistent throughout the entire Bible. Scriptural symbolism is interpreted through other scriptural symbolism.

.Here is an example:

Luke 13:18 He said therefore, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I liken it?
Luke 13:19 It is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his own garden; and it grew, and became a tree; and the birds of the heaven lodged in the branches thereof.

Mustard seeds are very small. In this parable it grows to an unnatural size, symbolizing unnatural growth of the church.
Birds throughout scripture are considered evil. This is saying that the church will be the home of all kinds of evil, in every branch (denomination). Anyone care to argue the truth of this?

There is more to it, but that is the gist of it.

THere is no way scripture can be taken as ALL literal truth. Just glancing at Revelation
should teach them that.

[T. Daves]

I believe that someday i'll go to heaven, i don't really know where it is, but i have faith that i'll get there. The Bible is a compulation of stories, and tales that lead the believer, if he follows the teachings within, to the end of that journey where they recieve everlasting life. Do i feel that everything in the book is actual factual, no, but you have to be willing to listen to what the stories tell you, and be able to recieve the meaning out of it.

[SatCong]

If any of it is not literal, how would one know. I think the only way to take the bible is literally.
SatCong

[Kent]

This has always been a difficult discussion for me to have (in person) with people that take scripture as the literal truth. Many times they fear not being able to answer sharp questions from an atheist or simply don't want be put on the spot. On the other end of the spectrum, there are also what I feel are flaws in the logic of an atheist regarding the nature of life and the universe.



I dont believe that all scripture can be taken literally (I dont see how it can be), but the scripture, parables and symbolism illustrate truths that are literal.

AFA fearing they dont have all the answers, no one does. We dont get all the answers until we die. But I will say this: the Bible is a very unusual book in that the more I read it, the more I learn. I liken it to peeling the layers of a onion.

Speaking for myself, I have not attended a church in years. I cannot stand the corruption of all organized "religion". The hypocracy (sp?) really turns me off. It is too ritualized. They tell you when to rise, when to sit, what to say and when to say it, what to sing and when to sing it.The sermons are nothing but psychobabble feel-good nonsense. The pastor will NOT be "controversial", or they will be out of a "job", so they will not preach against sin and Hell.

On the other side of the spectrum are the holier-than-thou nitwits that believe they are nearly Christlike in righteousness. I have no such self-delusions. I know what I am like.

[krept]

My questions are vague, because I really don't know what I'm getting at. At some point when one accepts that portions of the Bible or Qur'an aren't to be taken as literal truth, it's almost like opening up a door that might never close. In other words, where does it stop? Certainly there is much wisdom in both books, even if it is as superficial as "treat others with kindness" and "be positive."

I guess I would ask then, with the Bible for example. People say it is the "Word of God" but does that mean just the commandment portion? I guess because the answer differs from person to person, its up to the individual to explain rather than speak for the belief as a whole.

[RIKA]

I'll give an answer that most folks might consider kind of dippy. For me, whatever light inside of me shows the truth of what I read. Sorry, no flowery philosophical explanation but just what is in my heart.

RIKA

[Kent]

Krept, what do you mean by "literal truth"? For example, Revelation speaks about a 7 headed beast with 10 horns. This doesn't mean some godzilla type creature is going to be let loose. I know that this sounds like I am being a smartass, but I am not, I'm just illustrating a point. But I submit that the symbolism of this beast is literally true and is coming to pass now.

I can tell from your previous post that you are searching. But the Bible contains things that are spiritually discerned. IOW, most, if not all, is foolishness to you. There are probably times where you say "I can't believe anyone would believe this!" If you are not reborn spiritually, you cannot understand the Bible and the deeper truths of it. It goes so deep that those that have studied it for a lifetime are still learning.

Please understand I am not putting you down, I am not saying you are stupid, or puffing myself up, by telling you this. Actually I think you are one of the more intelligent people here. But understanding this series of books doesn't depend only on intelligence.

I dont mind answering questions, I'm happy to do it. I may or may not be able to answer it, but chances are pretty good I can point you in the right direction.

[krept]

Kent, thank you for your time in replying. I AM searching, but I'm searching more how deeply others perceive their faith. I think that some people do take the scripture quite literally and that is what I find truly interesting here. I am the type that would never argue the validity of their words, but rather refine how thoroughly we understand the nature of what is real.


Rika, I understand. That means a lot more than, say, someone that... instead of using insight simply relies on regurgitated quotations from any teacher to make a point.

Absolutely no offense intended to anyone. I do feel that each reader is at least open minded enough to not be a regurgitator, for their very nature is to be mostly on transmit, rather than receive then teach.

cheers

[Kent]

Krept, there is nothing offensive about asking questions.

As far as regurgitation goes, we all do it. This is part of the education process. We depend on the teachers to give us good info about things we have no first hand knowledge of. For the most part, I believed my teachers when I was a kid, with 1 notable exception of "evolution". I saw that as BS from the beginning. Insight? maybe.

Or, someone says something and I say" I never thought of that! He/she is right", or "No, he/she is full of it, who do they think they are kidding!" Insight is a part of that process too.

Maybe by "regurgitation" you mean "blind faith"? I think that is what you are really getting at. Blind faith is stupidity.Faith with reason is where it's at, there is no need for blind faith.

I am the type that would never argue the validity of their words, but rather refine how thoroughly we understand the nature of what is real.

I know that, but I am pretty sure you at least think it. You know, "resurrected? Oh, come on!" :nyah:

[krept]

I meant more like blind faith. There is a family at Arizona State that comes every so often and stands on top of a low wall and preaches about hellfire and brimstone to anyone that will listen. Saying everyone there is a sinner, they're going to hell, etc. I've heard people try to talk to them and they just keep citing quotations in the Bible without really elaborating on them. That's a really extreme example.

I guess a good analogy would be me asking someone how they know they are going to heaven.

One answer would be to say "in verse X, Jesus said" such and such...

versus

"I believe that God has forgiven me of my sins and I have faith that if I continue to follow the righteous path I will get there."

it's the latter that is far more interesting and shows depth of conviction... Not sure if that makes sense

[T. Daves]

I'll give an answer that most folks might consider kind of dippy. For me, whatever light inside of me shows the truth of what I read. Sorry, no flowery philosophical explanation but just what is in my heart.

RIKA

Rika: I believe you got it in spades, to thine own heart be true.

[Kent]

It makes sense.

To preach "hellfire and brimstone" and not answer questions, IMO, is definitely not the way to go. I can cite scripture to make my point, but I won't. Not here. But I firmly believe Heaven and Hell are real.
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_books2.php/book_id=10928578/
This is just 1 link about this cardiologist. There are others that give more detail.

One answer would be to say "in verse X, Jesus said" such and such...

versus

"I believe that God has forgiven me of my sins and I have faith that if I continue to follow the righteous path I will get there."

I believe both answers are valid. There has to be a basis for belief. It cant be the result of wishful thinking. Just how does someone know that God has forgiven them? Through scripture and a changed life. Now that does not mean perfection. Anyone here think I am perfect? Didn't think so. It is a process that lasts a lifetime. There are times where I fall flat on my face, but when I do wrong, I know it. THe person that does wrong and doesn't know it or even care about it is in real trouble. Their conscience is seared and there is no hope for them.

Those "preachers" are alienating more people than they are helping, something is really wrong there. I'd like to see them in action. I dont think they are what they are portraying themselves as. I'll leave it at that.

[Aslan]

Hmm, how to frame my answer....

Ok, consider the following:

Most religious texts were written a long time ago, where concepts we take for granted today would be beyond the comprehension of most. (something like a virus or a germ, or that living things are comprised of millions of tiny living things called cells.)

These texts were not meant to be books of science, but books of philosophy, laws, and morality.

Most are fairly modern in their assemblage. The bible was assembled from a number of texts by scholars, long after the fact. The King James Version being the most familiar. The Koran, has likewise been assembled after the fact by scholars.

Given the audience they were originally written for, the state of knowledge at the time, they must be metaphorical in nature.

At some level, to fully understand them, enlightenment is required. Enlightenment means some transcendence beyond our current selves.

This enlightenment, or the quest for it, really forms the basis of faith. (IMHO)

For Christians, the path to enlightenment is found in the teachings of Jesus as presented in the Bible. For Muslims, the Koran. For Buddists, the teaching of Budda.

So on, and so forth.

Faith really is the conviction and moral fortitude to follow that path. It's the journey that tests and defines our faith.

So, until we reach the enlightenment we seek, we may never fully comprehend beyond the metaphors - which are useful and powerful in their own right.

What better way to illustrate the concepts and complexities?

Phew.... enough philosophizing - my brain hurts.

:devil:

[krept]

YES

good stuff... need to digest the posts

[Kent]

Aslan, good stuff there. You have given me some things to think about.

Most religious texts were written a long time ago, where concepts we take for granted today would be beyond the comprehension of most. (something like a virus or a germ, or that living things are comprised of millions of tiny living things called cells.)

The only series of books I am somewhat familiar with is the Bible, and when it comes to that and that only, I disagree. People could have (actually, they did) comprehended it. It is revolutionary though, especially the New Testament. Christs'
teachings were so revolutionary, iit was the secular reason Christ was crucified and believers persecuted up to the present day. Also, it was so revolutionary, sometimes his own followers left Him. These were people that actually saw the miracles, first hand. They left, IMO, because He turned their world upside down and they couldn't handle it.

[Aslan]

Kent, I believe people comprehended the bible and the teaching of Christ. But, the Bible is a religious text and not a science or math text.

(I don't recall reading any passages that explain that the speed of light is a constant in a given medium, or that gives the value of pi, etc. But I would not expect it to.)

But there's many levels of comprehension. I believe the use of metaphors and parables was an extremely effective way to communicate some very complex concepts. But true understanding comes with enlightenment. I don't think we will reach enlightenment in any kingdom of earth, but only in the kingdom of heaven.

But, as far as the rest, the people simply didn't have the knowledge and education base to deal with things like micro-biology. Heck, just look at how people today fail biology or math in grade school or high school - and they've grown up with this stuff.

I think Jesus was killed simply because he threatened the power base of the religious elite of the time. People do some pretty evil things when they are afraid of losing their power. Start pointing out that people have control over their destiny and over the paths they choose, and those whose power came from telling people to only do what they decide, well they aren't going to sit still for this sort of thing.

:devil:

[Kent]

Not total enlightenment, but enough to muddle through. Good post.