Can something "eternal" have a beginning, be created?

[krept]

Just thinking of the concept of eternity... if something is eternal, then shouldn't it have always existed?

On a taoist level, if there is a beginning by definition there must be an end. So if it was created, we can apply the trait of age to it... this cup is one month old or the universe is 13 billion years old.

Take the universe for example. It's easy for me to accept the position (A)that it's been around forever... expanding with a big bang and then collapsing upon itself... a cycle that has been going on and will go on forever. Recent measurements have shown this not to be the case, however...

On the flip side, it's easy for me to accept the position (B)that the universe started with a big bang and because matter appears to be accelerating away from other matter at an increasing rate, the universe will eventually spread out and burn out.

What is hard for me to accept, however, is that (C) the universe was created and after that it's going to last forever. I'm not sure why... but I just seem stuck on "if it's got a beginning, it's gotta end."

[KJUN]

Sorry, but you left out the only true option: the universe began when I became self-aware and will end when I am no longer self-aware. The universe is eternal, but only because I have always been self-aware and always WILL be self-aware from my perpective (which, of course, is the only real perspective in my universe).

[krept]

but... how do you know you became self-aware? I can see the beginning as a result of thinking (or thought) and therefore an end... but... I cannot see a beginning to self-awareness. I think the only thing that would change is what aspect of our "self" we are actually aware of. Awareness of the true self has always been there (IMO) it's the layers produced by thought (i.e. "I AM this meat luggage") that have a beginning and end...

hmm... does that make sense?

[Aslan]

I guess another question is whether you consider infinite and eternal to be the same thing....

For there are an infinite number of rational numbers between 1 and 2. There is a beginning 1, and and ending 2, yet there is no end as there is an infinite series of numbers between these two values.

Here's one of those math things that can really drive you nuts. Are there more integers or fractions?

There's an infinite number of integers, but there's an infinite number of fractions between any two integers....

hmmm.....


:devil:

[krept]

interesting.

I think by eternal I mean lasting for an infinite duration... kind of like the analogy with fractions... if you start at 1 and 1/googolplex and then count towards two, you go on "forever." If that were applied to the universe (creation) then you have matter infinitely expanding into space. We run up against the problem of entropy and all energy (even vibration of atoms?) being transformed into heat. Thus... the universe in a sense will run out of gas, so to speak and for all intents and purposes it will end.

Conversely, if it's a continual (eternal) cycle of expansion and contraction... MUST it have a beginning or have been created to exist?

[Aslan]

heat is a form of energy.

Matter is neither created or destroyed, it simply changes state. Energy is a state of matter. (That's the whole E=MC^2 thing) It also appears that the state transitions are not random, but occur in well ordered quanta.

There's a number of problems with the current models of the universe. None of them can show enough matter or a distribution of the matter to account for the observations of what's going on.

I think we will be learning a lot of new and exciting things about the universe, and that our current notions are horribly flawed. (This is getting back to the whole faith thing again.)

so which is the bigger problem: Ignorance or Apathy? (I don't know and I don't care).

:devil:

[Kent]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the vacuum of space, once things are set in motion, dont they keep moving indefinitely? Unless of course they come into anothers gravity field, hit another object, etc.

[Aslan]

Space is not exactly empty, nor is it a complete vacuum. There's all kinds of stuff in the vacuum of space.

Gravity exists at every point in space. (It is weak - it is based on the inverse square of the distances between masses and involves the gravitational constant.) The milkyway itself has mass and has a lot of gravity.

Then you get into the vast quantities of hydrogen molecules (very low density, but they are there), electromagnetic stuff, protons, neutrinos, cosmic rays, etc., etc.

space isn't as empty as you might at first believe. most of it is at a very very very very low density.

And you're thinking of inertia, an object a rest remains at rest until acted upon by an outside force, an object in motion remains in motion....

it can get really messy, depending on the level you want to look at things.

There's even been some discussion that the background noise from the big bang may actually be a completely different phenomenon altogether.

Fun stuff.

:devil:

[Kent]

Heres something I googled. Some of it is way over my head, but what I was able to understand, its interesting. Conmologists themselves cant agree if the universe expands forever or not.
http://www.c-parr.freeserve.co.uk/hcp/collapse.htm

[Aslan]

real interesting book - I'm not done with it yet: How the universe got it's spots. I don't have it in front of me right now.

It's by a mathematician / physicist that has a problem with the concept of infinity when applied to the real universe.

it's an easy read and doesn't get too bizarre - at least not so far.

:devil:

[Smarter Gun]

:rolleyes: Now I'm thoroughly confused! My biblical instincts tell me that I am a, 'created event' with the potential to live forever. My Creator, however, has always been and can neither end nor be contradicted.

To be honest I find it very difficult to think about the universe in terms of eternal presence; and, yet, if the universe is both created AND alive then it, too, may be just like me - living, conscious, and self-aware. I know the, 'gaia people' think this way; maybe I should get good and drunk and meditate on this one for awhile. :confused: :idea:


(Hey, Krept, you're obviously a very, 'heavy' dude. Do other people say, 'Huh!' to you a lot?) ;)

[brass hammer]

interesting.

I think by eternal I mean lasting for an infinite duration... kind of like the analogy with fractions... if you start at 1 and 1/googolplex and then count towards two, you go on "forever." If that were applied to the universe (creation) then you have matter infinitely expanding into space. We run up against the problem of entropy and all energy (even vibration of atoms?) being transformed into heat. Thus... the universe in a sense will run out of gas, so to speak and for all intents and purposes it will end.

Conversely, if it's a continual (eternal) cycle of expansion and contraction... MUST it have a beginning or have been created to exist?

man! when i was maybe 14 years old, i would ponder these aspects!
all i'll add[unless i read a worthy postin'] is that ,,,THE SUN RISES AND SETS
WITH OR WITH OUT YOUR ,,,SORRY-ASS WATCHIN'-IT!,,,LIVE YOUR LIFE
ACCORDING :headbang: :hot: :dgrin: :nyah: LY.