Mohammedism

[arebindixie]

Does Mohammedism (Islam) represent a threat, within itsel to Western culture and Christianity?

[T. Daves]

I want to explain my vote, yes in that the fanatics see the west as the great satan, but i would also have to vote no in that a religion if taught the way their beliefs should be taught would not threaten anyone.

[BigEd63]

Yes to me it does.

[robert garner]

Jesus taught and led by example.It was enough for him to show the way and Die to forgive.
It is NOT the fanatics of Islam that need be feared,unless you ARE a muslim they see as less fundamental than themselves.
It is only their "leftists?" that we need not fear, for their centrists are those who would give you the choice,convert or be converted by the sword.

[RIKA]

Yes, I think its a threat to any culture not of Islam.

RIKA

[Kent]

I guess I am the lone voice of dissent.

I believe it is a manufactured threat. I'm more worried about our own .gov

[krept]

I don't think the religion is a threat any more than Christianity is to the East.

IMO, the leaders... the people in power... that claim to represent a religion yet brutally suppress their people are the threat.

I'm actually not well versed on the "culture" thing either... i mean, if we see western culture in terms of personal and civil freedoms, I believe it will endure any religion. If we look at it in terms of excess materialism and gluttony, I feel it will self destruct in the absence of faith.

[robert garner]

Kent Please look up Oct. 7, 1571 When the Holy League under Pope Pius met and defeated the Conquering Armies of Selim in a Naval Battle with all odds against the Christians! This Saved Vienna, and allowed You,and all other Europeans today to be Christian! Look at the Jannisaries, who were held celibate excepting only for the rapine and pillaging of the infidels! The Map isnt the territory, whats said isnt whats practiced, but History will honor the truth of their unholy religion.
Also the us.gov; is also a pita, but one we can and should deal with, one danger does not preclude the other Big Brother will have you a Real ID , its all bout control little brother!

[Kent]

Robert

I understand where you are coming from. I agree they are a threat, but they are a distant, manufatured, and tailor made threat. I see it as a red herring.

There are those that use "religion" as a platform for personal power and gain, and I believe that is the case here. Both GW (and neocons in general, and I used to be a neocon) and some of the Muslim clerics are using their "religion" for this purpose.

I dont remember if it was George Will or William Saffire that said Bush was assuming dictatorial control over this nation when he rammed the Patriot Act thru Congress, without the legislators even being allowed to READ it first. (source: Cong. Ron Paul,
R- TX, et al) Will and Saffire are conservatives like GW, so liberal bias cannot be blamed.

You are absolutely right when you say it is all about control. It seems that religion has been chosen as a way to exercise that control. I believe that tool has been selected because that is a strongly held and deeply personal view that everyone has, and when challenged on it, most react very defensively, as if mere questions are a personal attack, and we somehow HAVE to justify our beliefs.

There are some churches that are booting out members that dare to question GWs policies.

These are some reasons that I see our .gov as more of a threat.

[Terry G]

The Koran, like the Bible, can be interpreted to fit what one wan'ts to make of it. If you wish to, you can read passages that seem to absolutely commend the killing of the non-believers and the absolute right of a man to treat his wife (wives) as chattels, to be done with as he pleases. Unfortunately, many Muslims look at this interpretation as the right and only one. Their easy to pick out. They carry AK's and land mines.

[MileHighSailor]

To paraphrase John Ashcroft:

"I have a major problem with any religion that says I must send out my son to die for God. My religion says that God sent His Son to die for me."

I feel that we are fighting the last great Crusade. In the "distant" and cloudy past, Anglos invaded and fought in the Holy land to take back what was never theirs. This time around however, we are fighting to preserve our very way of life against a determined and tenacious foe. How do you defend against a religious fanatic, someone who sees every single tax paying American as his enemy. Someone who is willing to blow himself into the ether to secure a place in "paradise". We fight in this war, not for power or land, but for freedom. We fight for democracy....we fight for decency. If all goes as planned, this coming spring will see me in Iraq. The daddy in me doesn't want to go. The warrior in me demands that I go. He demands that I go and defend freedom....that my daughter shall live for the rest of her life in a nation of laws and sweet, wonderful freedom. That she may accomplish in this life whatever the Lord has layed out for her...that she may never have to fear a religious zealot taking her life for not believing the same way he does. We take the fight to the heart of darkness because if we don't, that darkness will spread. We are a light to the world, the last true free nation left on earth. That light, is sadly yet inexorably fading. I will NOT stand by and watch it happen as a spectator. I would much rather die as a patriot and a warrior, defending the freedoms which I hold so dear, than to live as a slave to an evil and soul crushing false religion. If my blood must be spilled out upon the dusty ground of the middle east, so be it. I swore an oath, to defend this nation against ALL enemies, both foreign and domestic. My eyes are wise enough to see that we have both, and both have drool dripping from their fangs. Both want nothing more than to destroy this country that I love. Both will have to fight to do so. It is my most frevent prayer, that both will fail. It is my firm belief the tree of liberty must at times be refreshed with the blood of tyrants and patriots. Let us hope and pray, that the tree drinks no more patriotic blood. Let us hope and pray, that it's thirst for the blood of tyrants is never slaked. May God bless and keep safe, those patriots who even now, at this very moment, go in harm's way. They are my brothers and sisters, and my heart is with them. They are the true heros, they are the warriors. Everything we hold dear as free men and women, rests upon their shoulders.....as well as the shoulders of those Americans who have privately taken the self-same oath. We are the sheepdogs, I fear however, that there are just too many wolves. Stay safe and shoot straight. May God guide not only your hands, but your hearts as well.

[KJUN]

Well, unless you say christianity is a threat to their way of life, too. Matter of fact, look at history: christianity harms more different ways of life than maybe ANY other religion out their. The crusades were just PART of it, too. (Indians were killed for their "pagan" beliefs using germ warfare. They were killed, but "saved" first. What a fricken trade off!

Too much of what is said on this topic is NOTHING more the prejudism. It disgusts me. Regardless of religion, their are good and bad INDIVIDUALS out there. (See crusades again for bad people in a supposedly good religion.) Bad INDIVIDUALS can threaten our way of life. A religious BELIEF doesn't pose a threat and can't...unless you mean that can people be converted into something YOU don't like. In that case, it might be considered a threat, BUT christianity was a horrible threat to the pagan beliefs, too.

Sooooo, it is just as much of a threat as christianity is to other ways of life and no more. Hmmmm, christianity and our laws based on it definitely reduce my ability to pursue happiness! BUT, individuals no matter what they believe and don't believe can threaten my way of life. As long as your beliefs don't affect me (which they currently DO in the US), it can't bea threat.

KJ

[RIKA]

Kjun, without having this degenerate into a fight, I'm curious just how Christianity keeps you from enjoying life, liberty and happiness. Maybe I'm being inhibited from happiness and am just too dumb to know it.

Regarding good muslims, bad muslims, good/bad christians and all the others, maybe somebody will invent an instrument like a geiger counter that we can just point at a person. The instrument's dial would have meter with a needle that would indicate the pointee's goodness or badness.

EEK! Don't point that thing at me! :D

RIKA

[DaRkWoLf]

Im not sue that he ment christianity itself does but more specific christians.

I can see where hes going there.

This could be a really involved exchange but I see mud slinging just waiting to happen...

[KJUN]

EEK! Don't point that thing at me! :D

Overload, huh? LOL.

Kjun, without having this degenerate into a fight, I'm curious just how Christianity keeps you from enjoying life, liberty and happiness.

DW is pretty much on the right track for where I was going. (BTW, DW, I do plan to answer you on the other thing, but it'll take me a while to get to a longer answer.....) BUT, I did mean it mostly hypothetical, and let's leave it there since it WILL just degenerate into an argument. It would be mostly me playing the Devil's Advocate and defending things I don't actually believe it. (Since I believe in personal responsiibility & freedom completely(?), I often defend things I HATE because I feel that my opinions shouldn't effect what someone else does as long as they aren't unnecessairly harming another.) Please forgive me for not wanting to blow this into a big fight that i don't have the heart to play in.

In exchange, can I give you a SIMPLE example of the TYPE of things I mean that shouldn't get too many people too angry and not go into more "sticky" situations? Let's say I'm a nudist. I believe in that completely. (BTW, i am NOT - I'm on the other estreme, actually.) If I'm not nude all of the time the weather is OK no matter where I am at, I'm uncomfortable, unhappy, and NOT doing what I feel is correct. Christians seem to hate public nudity based on their belifs, so it is outlawed. (Except for religious-related reasons, I can think of NO reason why non-erotic nudity is improper or offensive....except on fat chicks, of course. :) ) In this case, as a nudist, the christian beliefs forced into our legislation "reduce my ability to pursue happiness."

That is a BAD analogy of what I was thinking, but I'll leave it at that. I also will avoiding stretching it to cover "life, liberty, and happiness." If I mentioned the first two things, I didn't mean, too. I can think of cases where christians hindered someones ability to live and their liberty (KKK, etc.). SOME of that is due to BAD christians and some is due to the belief itself.

Still the "highest" thing a woman can be in the eyes of the Catholic Church (whether Catholics admit it or not) is just a "wife." That I have trouble following. If I'm going to Hell for treating a female as my equal (completely), I better by some extra meat for the BBQ now! :(
KJ

[RIKA]

Im not sue that he ment christianity itself does but more specific christians.

I can see where hes going there.

This could be a really involved exchange but I see mud slinging just waiting to happen...

DW, I hadn't considered that. Thank you. I have huge problems with so-called christians or any other religion who stick their long blue noses into my affairs and demand that I believe and behave exactly in their proscribed way. Most of those people are first class hypocrites who don't even practice what they preach. I personally have no problems with living by the 10 commandments though where it says "honor thy father and mother", I believe that they must first be honorable people to receive such treatment. The rest is just courtesy and common sense.

Edit: Kjun, I was writing just as you posted. Most of the moral laws on the books IMO are from ethicists who want to impose their morals on others. Some are from those religious blue noses that I have such an issue with. Others believe they are doing the right thing but their interpretation of the holy book is so screwed up that even they can't live by their own laws.

Crap. When does SHTF begin so I can be free? (am I joking or not, your guess)

I sincerely hope that this can be discussed rationally and without mud slinging.

RIKA

[KJUN]

I have huge problems with so-called christians or any other religion who stick their long blue noses into my affairs and demand that I believe and behave exactly in their proscribed way.


Well said

I personally have no problems with living by the 10 commandments though

Well said again. Those are great rules to live by whether you believe in the christian god or not. To me, they can all be summed up in saying don't sin, and the only sin is harming another person unnecessarily. That is the basic theme of the way i wish to live. I'm not perfect, but that is my goal. "Hurt" or "Harm" doesn't mean offend, etc. i'm not into this PC crap.

where it says "honor thy father and mother", I believe that they must first be honorable people to receive such treatment. The rest is just courtesy and common sense.

Again, well said. Extend that to everything and we are on the same page. Rudeness should NOT be tolerated. On the same page, respect should be earned. Those two should go together.

KJ

[DaRkWoLf]

Mabye someone can bring this up in the Pensive section (this is drifting pretty remotely from the opening post)? If people can act like adults and keep any imposing to themselves this could be a fun topic. Apparently ,my time over on ChristianForums (same screen name if you really must go there and witness my madness) has gotten me way to obsessed with theological and philosophical debate...

KJUN, thanks for the time and developing an extended answer. Im most fascinated.

[krept]

I think it is more often than not people confusing the messenger and the message. I'm willing to bet this extends back to when the message was verbal, hence the possibility that the original messenger is misquoted, etc.

There is a good quote that goes something like "just because someone is serious, it doesn't mean that they are right." That goes for everyone from the laypeople to priests, monks or imams, your parents, whatever.

ten years mindlessly memorizing scripture will never replace one year of mindfully seeking truth. When people are fanatical about their beliefs (theologians and atheists alike), that's a clue that something isn't... quite... right.

[DaRkWoLf]

I think it is more often than not people confusing the messenger and the message. I'm willing to bet this extends back to when the message was verbal, hence the possibility that the original messenger is misquoted, etc.

There is a good quote that goes something like "just because someone is serious, it doesn't mean that they are right." That goes for everyone from the laypeople to priests, monks or imams, your parents, whatever.

ten years mindlessly memorizing scripture will never replace one year of mindfully seeking truth. When people are fanatical about their beliefs (theologians and atheists alike), that's a clue that something isn't... quite... right.

That may have been the most sensible thing Ive read all week. Well said krept.

[Chili Willi]

Even the ten comandments have been corrupted by people with their own agenda. I try to live by one rule-The golden rule. It has seemed to work pretty well so far. I also believe that "Honor the Earth" should be gospel.

[BigEd63]

"Do unto others as they would do unto you but do it first, Amen." :duck:

[MileHighSailor]

My goodness. I had no intention of pissing anyone off, I was just speaking my mind. Which by the way, is one of the wonderful freedoms I have that the religious zealots I was speaking of want to take from me. I don't hate Muslims, I hate the fact that one of the core tenants of their religion is hatred. I am a christian. The fact that I believe God sent His Son in the form of Jesus Christ to die for my sins that I may spend eternity with Him, has nothing to do with my problem with Islam. I have the same problem with any religion that panders hatred, which is why I pointed out that the Catholic church was wrong during the crusades. I said clearly that they were fighting to take back land which was NEVER theirs. I despise Islam, because men and women are dying all over the world due to it. No where in my post did I say christianity should be legislated. What makes this country great is freedom. Unfortunately, some people take freedom of religion to mean freedom from religion. I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone. I am not saying you MUST believe what I believe. I hope everyone becomes a christian, but that is because of my beliefs, not because of ego, hatred, or any kind of sense of false supperiority. I serve shoulder to shoulder with people of all faiths, and ya' know what? We're all green. We all bleed red. I love my fellow man, which is why it pains me to see an entire region of the world under the boot heel of a religion that calls for murder and hatred. I don't want to kill people for their beliefs, I don't want to kill people for my beliefs. I want to kill those who would see my country fall. I want to bring death to the doorstep of evil. I want to defend freedom and democracy wherever it is threatened. Religion has nothing to do with that. If I have offended anyone, so be it. I will not apologize for speaking what I think. One of the things that makes this country great, is that I have the right to offend you, and you have the right to offend me. Stay safe and God bless all of you whether you believe the way I do or not. :)