.50 Hawken

[Terry G]

I have a reproduction .50 Hawken that I've been shooting on and off for twenty years. My hunting load is 90 Grains FFg behind a patched lead ball. I've only shot one Whitetail with it, a rather small 120 pound doe, but she dropped within fifty yards, so I know the rifle will do the job, but one thing I have been curious about. When sighting in, after four or five shots, the bore is too fouled to load another shot until cleaned. How did the mountain men handle this task? I have done the quicky Windex thing, and been able to fire a few more shots, but how did they handle this problem in the wilderness?

[Flinter]

I assume you are using 2F?

IMHO, 90 grains in a 50 is too much powder. Especially using a roundball and the "short" Hawkins barrel. I only shoot 80 out of my 54........I have seen more deer killed with my 50 (I use it as a loaner) than I can remember and I only load it with 70 grains.

As to how the mountain men did it.......first off they rarely fired that many shots at one time. When they did need a fast reload though, they used what we call a "naked ball". That's a ball loaded without a patch. These spare balls were typically kept in their mouth (if they knew they were going into combat beforehand) and literally spit into the barrel. Then a hard rap of the buttstock on the ground would send the ball the rest of the way down the barrel (hopefully) and that was that.

Not a perfect set up eh? Well, safety be damned when there is an injun after your scalp.

Another, and safer, method is to blow down the barrel between shots. The moisture in your breath will soften the fouling and make it easier to push the next ball down the barrel. Don't do it until you are beginning the reloading process, if you do it and then wait 3 or 4 minutes to load it won't have the full effect. Of course, you do take the chance of igniting smoldering powder in the barrel and burning the hell out of your mouth/tongue. I always wait a minute or two before blowing.

Another option is to lube your patch with spit. Make sure you wash your patching material first though......it has a chemical on it to make it lay flat (for display purposes) and will give you one hell of a stomach ache otherwise. Since spit is basically water it has the effect of cleaning the barrel while you load. The downside to this is that if you wait a while to fire the spit can dry and that's no good.........also it can be absorbed into your powder which is worse.

Of course, you should only use all natural products in a muzzleloader. If you are cleaning or lubing with any petroleum based products it will worsen the fouling and compound the problem. I use a combo of olive oil and bees wax for a patch lube. Best stuff I've found yet. It also works wonders on chapped lips and waterproofs leather like nobody's business.

Hope this helps.

[Terry G]

Thanks, Flinter. I'll try backing off to 70 and see if the accuracy stay's. Mine's fairly long barreled, 28", and I fired it over snow with no unburnt powder coming out, but I'm not really schooled in black powder having only the .50 and a .44 Colt's copy. I have some sabot's and Speer slugs I'm going to try. I use "Bore-Butter" as a lubicant.

[Flinter]

I didn't mean to attack your load Terry. It's just that when people want to talk muzzleloaders I tend to get a little long winded. I've been shooting muzzy's since I was 12 years old. I'm 33 now. The last 10 years I've been hunting with flintlock guns almost exclusively. It's not only a passion for me, it's a lifestyle.

I had to giggle when you mentioned the 28 inch barrel. Here's a few pics of one of my favorite BP guns. It's a 20 gauge smoothbore. It has a 46 inch barrel.

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/7169Dsc00278-med.jpg

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/7169Dsc00280-med.jpg

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/7169Dsc00277-med.jpg

[Terry G]

Talk about neat guns! Your BP shotgun is beautiful. I only fired a flintlock twice, it was a Brown Bess ORIGINAL!!, that my Aunt's Father had. .75 Bore as I recall, and it seemed like a full second from pulling the trigger and the round going off. Recoil was there, but more like a shove than a punch. Missed a 55 gallon drum at fifty yards the first time, but killed it dead with the second. I guess a 28 inch barrel does seem short to you after looking your gun, but like I said mine's not throwing unburnt powder so maybe the loads not too hot? I like the accuracy with 90 grains. I can get three inch groups at 100 yards, better than I can do with either of my AK's.

[Razorback]

Hey Flinter, that there's a rippin' 20-bore!
I got a question for ya.
I been thinking of gettin me a smoke pole. Been lookin at them Lyman Great Plains guns. I was told that the 1 in 60 twist would be best for the round balls, but wouldn't stabilize a bullet. The 1 in 36 twist (the great plains hunter) would stabilize bullets real good, but overspin the round balls. and that the 1 in 48 twist rifles, like them hawkan remakes don't do either well. What's the scoop?

[Flinter]

I like the accuracy with 90 grains. I can get three inch groups at 100 yards, better than I can do with either of my AK's.

If you are getting that kind of accuracy Terry, I wouldn't change a thing. That's good shooting for a commercial muzzleloader. It could be burning all of that powder. I used to have a chart that showed how much powder burned per inch of barrel. Black powder is very uniform in how fast it burns. I'll have to look around and see if I still have it.

The snow test is an old one. It works too. Just make sure you look 5-6 feet in front of you also, that unburnt powder can come out of there with some velocity.

I'd love to shoot an original Bess. I've only handled one in my life. That gun in one form or another was the standard for the British army for over 100 years. They weren't known for accuracy though. There is no front sight on them, the stud you see is actually for the bayonet. Of course there's no rear sight either.......aiming was discouraged. The idea was volume of fire. A company basically formed a huge shotgun. The Americans added the order "aim" to their manual of arms during the Revolutionary War. Up to then it was considered unneccessary. The stock architecture of a Bess was even intentionally designed to be uncomfortable for aimed fire. The belief of the times was that aiming slowed down the rate of fire.

My smoothbore (pictured) shoots 4 inch groups at 50 yards with an occasional flyer. Not great, but I can still hit deer in the vitals out to about 75 yards.

The first rule in muzzleloading is "get as close as you can.......then get 10 yards closer".

[Flinter]

I was told that the 1 in 60 twist would be best for the round balls, but wouldn't stabilize a bullet. The 1 in 36 twist (the great plains hunter) would stabilize bullets real good, but overspin the round balls. and that the 1 in 48 twist rifles, like them hawkan remakes don't do either well. What's the scoop?

Razorback.....You are basically right. I'm surprised Lyman is using a 1/36 for their guns that are specifically designed for bullets. Most of the ones that I've seen are closer to 1/28. Maybe they are tailoring them to the new lighter sabots that the modern BP hunters seem to favor.

1/60 is perfect for any caliber of roundball over .45.

Now, the 1/48 guns are equally worthless for roundball and bullets. I'll tell ya why........groove depth in the barrel. See, for a roundball you not only need a slow twist, you also need a deep groove so that the patch can fit tightly into it and transfer the spin to the ball. If you go too shallow of a groove you can actually start "jumping" riflings with a patched roundball and that disrupts the spin of the bullet.

For a bullet though, you need a shallow groove. That way the lead can fill the grooves and seal the barrel so that none of the gasses pass the bullet.

So even though they try to split the difference when it comes to rifle twist(making it less than ideal for both), they still must make a decision as to how deep they want to cut the grooves. In the end that makes the decision on what the gun is going to shoot.

My advice to you is to decide what you are going to shoot beforehand and buy a gun specifically for it.

I like roundballs. I've killed a mountain of game with them. Lots of people will tell you that they won't kill game........those people are full of crap.

IMHO the Lyman Great Plains is one of the finest production guns out there. Lyman doesn't get the press that TC does, but they make a first rate product. The 50 caliber loaner I talked about above is a Lyman Trade Rifle.

[Razorback]

Thanks Flinter.
I was wrong, I just checked and the great plains hunter is 1 in 32.

I was kinda wantin something that would shoot bullets (conicals, not sabits) and balls.
But I guess if I can only have one or the other, I'll go with the ball shooter, might as well go that route if I'm goin traditional and all.

[tuna]

Flinter, good information on the mountain man's tactical re(muzzle)load. Always wondered about that. One word of warning, I just tried that today (I used a ramrod instead of smacking it on the ground - no Injuns coming so no real rush), and I wound up looking like Al Jolson. I was thinking about a quick reload when hunting, so I figured I'd try it now, instead of screwing up when I NEEDED it. Even using the ramrod to get the ball down, I think since I was shooting at a slight down angle, either the ball moved forward just enough, or there wasn't enough resistance, that sucker SMOKED!!! Naturally the range is situated so the wind blows into the shooter, so I got a face full! Accuracy wasn't half bad, however, it hit about 4 inches lower and 2 inches to the right at 50 yards from where the rest of my shots were going, so at close range (50 and closer) you'll still be within "minute of deer" for the shot, but I think I'll still used patched if I'm only hunting. Besides, I only tried the one, so who knows where the second would go, you'd have to check that if you're planning on using the technique.
Nice shotgun. I've been looking to get a BP shotgun myself, looks like it would be a hoot to carry for pheasant!

[neolithic hunter]

well i have an old hawken copy that i will admit i haven't fired in maybe 10 yrs. it's a s.i.l.e. with a hard chromed bore i looked up the load i used to shoot in it. it has a 32 inch barrel and i shot 110 gr of pyrodex in it with a patched ball. i can't recall ever having trouble loading it even after a day of shooting at the range. is the fouling in 50 cal that much worse in rifle than a pistol. i shoot my bp pistols quite a bit with black powder and have a little problem with the cylinder gap but a pocket knife usually takes care of it. :cool:

[Flinter]

Thanks Flinter.
I was wrong, I just checked and the great plains hunter is 1 in 32.

I was kinda wantin something that would shoot bullets (conicals, not sabits) and balls.
But I guess if I can only have one or the other, I'll go with the ball shooter, might as well go that route if I'm goin traditional and all.

There are exceptions Razorback, some guns just seem to shoot anything you put in them. As a general rule though, what I said stands.

Unless you shoot bears reguarly, I think you'll be fine with roundballs. Once they get inside of a deer they flatten out like a silver dollar. The only real difference I've seen is that bullets hold their energy for further distances. Most roundball guns are 100 yard guns. They'll kill past that.......it just a matter of whether or not it's humane.

[Flinter]

. Nice shotgun. I've been looking to get a BP shotgun myself, looks like it would be a hoot to carry for pheasant!

I don't think they use quite as big a ball as we do today. I use a ball that's about .005 under what ever caliber I'm shooting.......they probably went .015 to .020 under bore size. They couldn't risk a ball stuck half way down the barrel. Although I can document the fact that it happened. But that's how they could get away with just smacking the butt on the ground. That was SOP in the British army once the shooting started.

That ball diameter thing is for rifled guns, smoothbores get even more confusing. My .62 caliber smoothbore actually shoots a .600 ball. The reason for that is that it doesn't have riflings for the patch to compress into. That compression takes up barrel space.

I was at Longhunter School a couple of years ago and we actually shot our gun exclusively without patches for an entire day at the range. I was amazed at how closely it hit to point of aim. You are right though, it sort of forms a 4 inch circle where it can hit anywhere in that circle. I was left, then right, then high, then low.....but still, it all stayed within about 4 inches on the target.

I imagine the extra smoke you are seeing is because there isnt' as much pressure in the barrel, plus the gasses are blowing around the ball. I know that I chronographed one of my rifles (BP) and it picks up 200fps just from having the bored fouled.

Nothing beats a BP gun for a fun factor when it comes to small game hunting. I love to rabbit hunt with mine. I always kill just as many as the guys packing 870's.

[Flinter]

is the fouling in 50 cal that much worse in rifle than a pistol. i shoot my bp pistols quite a bit with black powder and have a little problem with the cylinder gap but a pocket knife usually takes care of it. :cool:

Short answer, yes.

The ball in a cap and ball pistol is oversized and cut to proper diameter by the cylinder walls when loading. The forcing cone cuts it a bit again when it is fired plus any excess powder/gasses can blow out the cylinder gap........result, it keeps the barrel pretty clean. Plus that slug is only going one way through that barrel. You don't have to try to force another ball down it.......you are only using powder to blow it out.

As for the cylinders.......the loading lever gives you a lot more "leverage" (redundant I know) when loading......plus you are only forcing that ball an inch or 2, not 28-46.

[tuna]

The thing that interests me most in BP hunting is in the fact that you are in effect stating that you only need one shot (maybe two if you have a double fowling piece). From what I've found, I've only needed one shot when hunting. If I miss on the first one, generally I'll keep missing until the gun is empty. That is one reason why I put the waterfowl plug in my 870, if I only fire 3 shots from a pump, it looks like I finally got a lucky hit, or have self control. If you only have the one shot in a frontloader, so what, that just means you don't miss as much. You may miss as many animals or birds as anyone else, but you make less noise per miss. Granted, making noise is fun in and of itself, but I try to limit this to the range instead of the field.

[Razorback]

There are exceptions Razorback, some guns just seem to shoot anything you put in them. As a general rule though, what I said stands.

Unless you shoot bears reguarly, I think you'll be fine with roundballs. Once they get inside of a deer they flatten out like a silver dollar. The only real difference I've seen is that bullets hold their energy for further distances. Most roundball guns are 100 yard guns. They'll kill past that.......it just a matter of whether or not it's humane.

Thanks for the help fella!
Couple more questions if ya don't mind.

I'm thinkin the round balls are the way to go fer me. But I hunt hogs and deer, do you think a 50 is enough fer hogs, or should I go with a 54?

Second, altho I'll use it during black season, most of this rifle's shootin is going to be fer fun. How much more trouble is a flintlock than a percussin? I kinda like the whole Dan'l Boone thing with the flintlocks, but if they won't hunt well, I might go with the percussin.

[Flinter]

I think either one would work for you, but if it were me I'd go with a .54. If you had just said deer it would have been a toss up, but since you are talking about wild hogs I'd want a little something more to anchor them. I've never killed one myself, but everything I've read says that they are tough animals. I've always believed that having too much is not near as bad as having too little. Either one throws a good sized chunk of lead, and I'd take the shot with either. Just personally, I'd want a .54.

My very first muzzleloader was a CVA Kentucky percussion in 45 caliber. That damn rifle went off every third time you pulled the trigger just like clockwork.

The gun I've posted a picture of has fired reliably in the rain, snow and after being loaded for weeks at a time.

It really just depends.

A flintlock has more character than a percussion gun. For the "fun to shoot" factor they just can't be beat. The first time you squeeze the trigger on one is an experience that you just won't forget. The hammer fall, the fireball from the side of the gun......it's different than anything you've experienced. First time I shot one I just about threw the gun over the side of the bank. I thought the whole back end had blown off of the gun.

One thing I always hear non flintlock shooters say about flintlocks is that they have a long lock time. The old "klack.......shooo.......booom". Well, if your gun is doing that then there's a problem. All 3 of mine fire so fast that you'd swear they were a percussion gun if you heard them go off. I did have one that did that in the beginning. It took a month of tinkering to figure out how to make it faster. Flintlocks take a level of dedication beyond anything else in the gun cabinet.

Another common complaint is the fact that the flintlock is more succeptable to moisture. That's true. It's also something that you have to be constantly aware of. While hunting I change my priming powder about every 2 hours or so. I also keep a feather in my shooting bag that I use to plug the touch hole when the weather gets too damp.

I guess what I'm saying is that a flintlock is not a pain in the ass as long as you are willing to accept it for what it is and spend a good bit of time in the beginning to learn your rifle. The reward is worth it to me. There's magic in that old hat.

Percussion guns are fun too. And honestly probably a better choice for someone starting out in muzzleloading. They eliminate a lot of problems that you don't need while trying to learn the basics of a muzzleloader. Plus, most major manufactorers have perfected their caplock line of guns. That's not true with flintlocks. Even companies like T/C and Lyman still send substandard flintlocks out the door with amazing regularity. Most problems you hear about flintlocks come from commercial guns. It's a crapshoot from gun to gun. I hate to discourage you from flintlocks, but that's the truth.

[Gunners762]

Thats one purdy rifle - Flinter . Great pics......

[Flinter]

Thanks Gunner.

That's my workhorse.

Hey Gunner.........are you a member of the Boyertown Rod and Gun club? I've got a friend up that way, he's always talking about it.

[brass hammer]

well, from what 'I' know about 'revolvin' pistol calibers,
is these '****ers foul terror-ably',and you basically have to manually rotate the frickin' cylinder! AFTER THE FIRST,,GO 'around'
hey!,,,black-powder is nasty, just like the PEOPLE that utilize it for BOOSTER/R.P.G motors! :hot:

[Flinter]

What you need to do, Brass, is grease that cylinder pin a little better.

I've used Crisco in the past, but a better option would be the TC Bore Butter.

Once the grease is gone, the cylinder doesn't want to spin.

[brass hammer]

'i' copy BRO!,,,as 'i've in extended shooting 'rolled the cylinder' out and "spackled the center-pin with my 'C.V.A. patch-grease'[?,,,,please don't make me MAKE THE "LONG WALK" to the GARAGE/BEER-FRIDGE,,,fer' verifcation,,,DAMN-IT}
:dgrin:

[Cornbread2]

I can shoot heave loads of FF or FFF all day long without cleaning between shots and the last shot loads as easy as the first. I have shot a full lb of powder in one day and the rifle never gets hard to load.

I use panther piss for my patch lube.

Panther piss is a concoction some buckskinners came up with.

Mix three Pt's peroxide, three Pt's rubbing alcohol, and two Pt's Murphy's Oil Soap in a dark container. You need a container that light can't get through. I use an antifreeze jug.

This is by far the best cleaner for blackpowder ever made. It makes the best patch lube for constant shooting you can find.

You can't hunt with it because it will dry out but for a long days shooting it can't be beat.

[Gunners762]

Thanks Gunner.

That's my workhorse.

Hey Gunner.........are you a member of the Boyertown Rod and Gun club? I've got a friend up that way, he's always talking about it.
My uncle and other family members are. I go up when my uncle ask me to shoot.I also shoot at pikeville and french creek.Most of the time I shoot a 160 acre farm or out back behind my house. Boyertown is a nice range and secluded. I live a few minutes away.Sorry I didn't reply sooner I didn't see your post!!!

[fffg100grns]

I got two Hawkins, short one with 28 inch launch tube, 1 in 66 rinkle, I load 90 grns of fffg behind a patched ball lubed with Bore Butter, My boy can still see good enough and can hit a beer can at 100 yards near every shot.
Now I can shoot it 35 times, then I gotta do a spit swab.

Then I got this other one thats got a 34 inch bbl, and the boy don;t shoot it.
I could hit a 5 gal bucket at 250 yards 3 out of 10 shots years ago. It likes 100grns fffg and I have to spit swab after every shot.
I would be willing to loose distance on that gun for accuracy, I cant hit a coffee can at 50 yards any more, it just lost its accuracy, and I can't see so good no more.

[basketcase]

Got a .50 Hawken replica that I built(assembled) some 15 years back, (it's in the showcase now). I would always shoot 100 grains in it, (yeah, it kicked like a mule). I also had a japanese powder measure, (100g in it measured 125g in a CVA measure). That hawken could knock my 300 lb buddy on his butt! :laugh:
He kept tryin' to tell me I was holdin' the rifle wrong!
Loved that rifle for all around cheap powder hunting reliability.

Flinter, Some good stuff here about the era powder hunters/soldiers!
I think you said never use petroleum type cleaning solutions. Maybe I missed it but what do you use to clean the bore?
That "panther pee" sounds kinda scary!

Basketcase

[Flinter]

I think you said never use petroleum type cleaning solutions. Maybe I missed it but what do you use to clean the bore?
That "panther pee" sounds kinda scary!

Basketcase
The National Muzzleloading Association did a study on just that a few years ago. They found that nothing cleaned any better than plain, luke warm tapwater. Other products cleaned as well, but nothing cleaned any better.

I've been cleaning my guns with plain water for almost 20 years now. I see no reason to change.

BTW, a guy on another forum did a test with bare metal. He burnt powder in different spots and then splashed them with various cleaning agents. T/C Number 13 bore cleaner rusted faster than the spot where he just left the powder residue sit. Leave that stuff on Walmarts shelf.

Make sure you dry well. That's just as important as the cleaning.

[basketcase]

Flinter,

Thanks, the #13 is probably why I've had to order a new bore for my .50 cal. :headbang:

And I can see it now, me yelling to the wife...
"honey can you run to the store for more beer, your brother's coming over"

As I scramble to the bath tub with the .50 :laugh:

Seems like I remember blueing my first .50 there many years ago. :rolleyes:

Basketcase

[neolithic hunter]

i clean my bp pistols in a galvinised bucket it the bath tub with plane ols soap and hot water. i clean my bp rofles out of the stock in the bath tub the same way. then i pour bolling water over them and let them dry then oil them none have had any rust form the powder or solvents in over 20 yrs. now they both have gotten a little rust from negelecting them in between shooting them. :cool:

[fffg100grns]

i clean my bp pistols in a galvinised bucket it the bath tub with plane ols soap and hot water. i clean my bp rofles out of the stock in the bath tub the same way. then i pour bolling water over them and let them dry then oil them none have had any rust form the powder or solvents in over 20 yrs. now they both have gotten a little rust from negelecting them in between shooting them. :cool:



Me too, no rust only mine are 25 years old.

IF and when I ever get my 50 done I will post a pic, but I have only been shooting it for 20 years and I still got more furniture work needs done.