Arguments in religion

[tuna]

Was recently asked how I can consider myself a Christian when I own guns and am willing to use them to defend myself, my family or my country. I got the old "Jesus said to turn the other cheek" line and wanted to share with you all my counterarguments.

1) ANYONE can look in the bible and find something that supports his/her position if they take things out of context. Just being able to quote scripture does not equal righteousness, after all, Satan himself was able to quote the scripture to Jesus when he was tempting Him in the desert.

2) In this light, I can look to the Gospel of Luke (11:21, if you want to look it up yourself) where it says "a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his posessions are safe".

3) In another light, you can look to every account of the soldiers coming for Christ, and Peter draws his sword and cuts of one of the soldiers ears. If Jesus wanted everyone to turn the other cheek, why were his disciples armed?

4) When questioned about the number of guns I own, I refer back to Luke (22:36) where the disciples are instructed to sell their cloaks to buy a sword.

Again, as I stated, everyone can quote scripture to prove themselves right, just figured I'd give you some ammo to show that Jesus wasn't quite the pacifist that we're led to believe He is.

[RIKA]

Good post Tuna. Its sad that so many people want to think of Jesus as the perennial meek little child and not as the avenging King who is returning to claim what is His. To add to your comment, I believe it was Jesus who took up a whip and ran the money changers out of the temple. He was not a pacifist.

RIKA

[tuna]

Strange you say that Rika, I use that story a lot myself. After all, if someone flipped over my table, I may have a few words to say about that - there had to be SOMETHING that prevented anyone from acting against Him.
Maybe a sacreligious thought, but how scary is a guy that can beat you to death, bring you back to life and kick your butt again? (I think that if this statement gets the message across, I'll be okay, since it isn't meant as a joke but as a way of bluntly putting across a Message. Besides, He has to have a sense of humor, just look at the giraffe)

[Magnum88C]

First of all, the "turn the other cheek" passage reads:
". . .whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

A slap on the right cheek was considered an insult to a Jew. He's saying to not trade insult for insult. Before the scoffers and accusers start in, yes, I know I'm guilty of not following this one.

But don't throw out 3/4 of the bible. Refer to the Old Testament. The Jews were armed at all time except when they were captives. The bible even makes the point that when they were rebuilding the wall of Jerusalem, they worked with one hand and carried their weapon with the other.
Abraham took his slaves and attacked the Syrian army (the superpower of the time), to rescue Lot, defeats them, and takes all their stuff, tithing 10% to Melchizidek. This is the first recorded use of a militia -- possibly of interest to those who think God forbids citizens from using force against an established authority.
The book of Ruth tells of a woman brutally raped and murdered, and her husband calls the other 11 tribes who rise up and attack the tribe of the men who did it, and would have wiped them out had God not stopped them.
For that matter God commanded the soon-to-become Israelites to completely exterminate the Caananites, or they would be a thorn in their side 'til the end of time. The Arabs have been periodically been going to war with Israel ever since, because they disobeyed God's order to exterminate them.
For those that think Jesus was a pacifist, they must remember that He (spoken of as the Angel of the Lord, in the Old Testament) killed the entire Syrian army in one night when they arrayed themselves agasint Israel. He will also kill all of His enemies at His return (read Revelation). He also is the One who judges all, and sends all who are not saved to the Lake of Fire (the eternal death penalty, if you will).

Not all people who go to church are Christians. If fact, if you see what most teach, I'd say very few are. Those who really are Christians, I haven't heard many of them that are duped by trendy theology. In fact our preacher calls it a travesty for government to try and disarm the people. God has never shown any indication of thinking people should be unarmed (with a few exceptions, which if you read in context, are because Goid was showing who He is through the working of miracles), in fact, the opposite seems to be indicated. As well as saying several times that the strong should stand up for the week.

[Terry G]

I alway's believed that "turn the other cheek" meant don't take offense too quickly, not allow yourself to be beaten to death. One of the gentlest persons I have ever known was a Catholic Priest, who thought nothing of helping an elderly couple paint their house and cut their lawn. He carried an old S&W Model 10 in his car, also.

[arebindixie]

I alway's believed that "turn the other cheek" meant don't take offense too quickly, not allow yourself to be beaten to death. One of the gentlest persons I have ever known was a Catholic Priest, who thought nothing of helping an elderly couple paint their house and cut their lawn. He carried an old S&W Model 10 in his car, also.

My Bishop is fond of his FEG SMC 380 and Marlin 1894.

[Smarter Gun]

I like that idea about turning the other cheek. I'm sure it's saved a lot of lives! Hard to do, though, you really have to work at it! ;)

By the way, Simon Peter cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest. I guess Peter thought that if the guy was unwilling to listen to the truth, then, he really didn't need both ears - anyway. (John 18:10)

One more thing: That account of the raped concubine attributed to the Book of Ruth actually takes place in the Book of Judges; (Chapter 19) it's a rough story not well suited to translation into either modern concept or thought.

Good posts, everyone! :D

[brass hammer]

i was purusing in the 'religion' section of a second hand book store a 'while'-back, and in the quaran[m.s.[ from what 'I' gleened] was NOTHING MORE than a total RIP-OFF/BASTARDIZTION OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!!!,,,
stolen/amended to, in a second/third party,,,retrospect!,,,the simple FACT!
THAT THE ARABS,,,ACKNOWDLEGE the "GOD" OF ABRAHAM! [and ALL THAT
****in' ENTAILS]

satan=THE GREAT LIE!

[tuna]

Brass - you can acknowledge the Green Party and not agree with them. As to your observation though, yeah, supposedly in the "Religion of Peace" AKA Islam, the Jews and Christians are considered "People of the Book" or something similar (can't remember the exact term but I'm close AND I work for the government so close is good). From what I understand, they find nothing wrong with either Christians or Jews as long as we don't try to turn the islamists to our God.
How this fits in with blowing yourself up for the promise of 72 Virginians, I can't figure. No offense to Virginians, but I don't know if I'd want 72 of them...

[KJUN]

How this fits in with blowing yourself up for the promise of 72 Virginians, I can't figure. No offense to Virginians, but I don't know if I'd want 72 of them...

Would Hell then be 72 West Virginians?

[tuna]

Well, that would be relative.......

[John in AR]

One thing that seems relevant to me in relation to the temple/moneychangers incident that rarely gets brought up (had a conversation with a woman just last week about this very thing):

Jesus regularly ran into bad people doing bad things without responding with violence or even verbal attacks. The woman at the well, all kinds of examples of people he encountered just thru the days that were either doing or being what they shouldn’t. He didn’t try to force them into (or out of) a behavior or a way of life. He was nice, polite, caring, and while absolutely clear about how wrong their behavior was, He let them decide for themselves.

What jumps out at me in the temple incident (where He undeniably DID get violent) is this: they took that behavior into HIS house and he sat outside on the steps long enough to “fashion a whip”, and then went in & whomped the foo out of them. That’s really the only difference in that incident. Those people weren’t doing anything He hadn’t seen (and seen worse) a hundred times; they were just doing it in His house.

My perspective is right in line with Jesus on this one. Do whatever sick filth you want in your own house and with your own life, but there are consequences for trying to bring your filth into mine.

[tuna]

Awesome point!!! Along the lines of "your free will stops when it starts to affect me". Gotta remember that point.

[brass hammer]

Brass - you can acknowledge the Green Party and not agree with them. As to your observation though, yeah, supposedly in the "Religion of Peace" AKA Islam, the Jews and Christians are considered "People of the Book" or something similar (can't remember the exact term but I'm close AND I work for the government so close is good). From what I understand, they find nothing wrong with either Christians or Jews as long as we don't try to turn the islamists to our God.
How this fits in with blowing yourself up for the promise of 72 Virginians, I can't figure. No offense to Virginians, but I don't know if I'd want 72 of them...

thanks,TUNA!, i copy!,,,,,[not really,although!,but then again,maybe!!!]