get some REALISTIC battle practice.

[agreed]

find a deep, steep walled gully, or a man made pit. Use conduit to hold a realistic sized torso (12"x24" ) overhead. When someone fires a pistol into the ground, start dodging as you would if you were being shot at. Every 3/4 seconds, pull the target down out of sight of the shooters, (like you went prone and were hidden by terrain-vegetation). As if you had the sense god gave a goose, pop up somewhere ELSE, dodge AGAIN for 3-4 seconds, and again pull it down. shoot at such a mark at night, with flares up, in smoke, snow, rain, without ear protection, see how LITTLE hitting you do, at a mere 100 yds, even WITHOUT being shot at, without being depressed-exhausted, dehydrated, dysenteric, etc. When you add those realistic combat conditions, you'll miss even MORE, at a mere 50 yds. NOBODY does better than LUCK on such targets (ie, 50% hits) at more than 200 yds, with any rifle, load, sight, or firing position, even in nice daylight. It's just beyond the level of human possibility, like running a 3 minute mile. Never gonna happen.

[DaRkWoLf]

CQB Airsoft with real weight equipment and full gear and real capacity mags works too.

Need noise? Be creative with firecrackers, m80s, and other fun implements, including smokes.

[RIKA]

I'd just rather sit at my keyboard and make suggestions than actually do anything.

RIKA :D

[Magnum88C]

It's cheaper to get realistic "combat" (well, inanimate target really) practice using real live dope pushers, plus it does society a favor.

[Coyote]

Its called paintball Melvin. I don't have to dig any holes and noone has to keep down under live fire.

Goof.

[John in AR]

get some REALISTIC battle practice

Like IPSC? (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Or perhaps you mean like letting actual, real-life government agents and military units hunt you, with their actual gear except for their M4 uppers and handguns being switched over to plastic-bullet Simunition? I've done that more than once, and it's where I learned that NOBODY is undefeatable. I've been killed by some of them, and some of them have been killed by me.

"Combat" is something I confess to having no experience in, at least not gunfights; but I have fought for my life a couple of times, against bad people that I have almost no doubt would have killed me had I lost. I have one advantage in that kind of fight: motivation. If they lose, they go to jail; if I lose, there's statistically a 94+ percent chance that they'll kill me. This makes me more motivated than them. I guess I have another advantage as well: the fact that I have lost in training operations as well as in martial arts competitions, and unlike keyboard commandos, I know that I can be taken if I make a mistake.

Actually, does being "retarded strong" count as another advantage...? I believe so.

No, running in a ditch waving a piece of plastic is not "realistic battle practice".

Go out and actually DO something some time, instead of thinking up ways to preach about what you haven't done. Even this, which you say we should do; I'd bet you haven't even done this much yourself.

[Aslan]

Force on force with simunitions is one of the most humbling, educational things you can do. Especially against people that are better trained and equipped than you could hope to be.

I could have the fastest draw in the world and it would not matter. A coordinated team is something to watch. (and pretty impressive when you're on the receiving end.)

:devil:

[John in AR]

Force on force with simunitions is one of the most humbling, educational things you can do.

Other than running up & down a ditch of course, waving a piece of plastic over your head... :rolleyes:

[Hard Rock]

Ah yes, Simunition... I've got permanant scars from that stuff... I hate the politics of the company and I refuse to use the stuff in my training classes because of that but it's a great training tool. Too bad they have a pole up the ass about non LEO citizens having access to it. They lost a potentially HUGE customer here because of that.

Mike

[Wylycoyte]

Theyre assholes. Try UTM.

[Hard Rock]

Got a link? I'll happily send my business to someone else.

Mike

[Wylycoyte]

Sure.

http://www.k-techav.com/tacticalutm.asp

[Aslan]

why won't this thread DIE??

Wyly - I'm starting to worry about you...

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

Wyly - I'm starting to worry about you...

:devil:


I gave up caring and it worked for me! Embrace SLACK! :bird:

[Aslan]

I don't know what disturbs me more, your avatar, or the fact you were able to find that picture to use as an avatar...

:devil:

[Hard Rock]

Sweet... and I wasn't going to say anything about that avatar... you know, every persons life choices are his and his alone... it's not up to me to make any remarks about his preferences... :laugh01: :dgrin: :dgrin: :madeuce:

[BigEd63]

Maybe that's Kwaunza Claus?

[Wylycoyte]

Maybe that's Kwaunza Claus?


The true meaning of Kwanzza:

www.wimp.com/charlie

And no, Aslan...this thread will not die!!!! Mu ha ha!

[gripper]

"Embrace SLACK" Wyle Coyote...You are one of the Reverend Bob Dobbs faithful....good to see the Church of the Sub Genius still has its Acolytes around>In Bob we Trust!!

[Wylycoyte]

"Embrace SLACK" Wyle Coyote...You are one of the Reverend Bob Dobbs faithful....good to see the Church of the Sub Genius still has its Acolytes around>In Bob we Trust!!


Someone's got to fight the mewling pinkboys of the world! My fellow yeti warrior, with Bob on our side, who can stand against us?

[brass hammer]

this is 'funny' readin',,ur,,ah,!!,,,i thought i had a pertain-it-point in here somewhere!,,oh yes!,,the 'TARD'! i've kinda liked the ol'boy mister-160
'iffin' he'd just QUIT SPAMMIN' THE BOARD![i.e. the '****ER'S got's to die,syndrome] that ALL-FELLOW-MEMBERS reach a SATURATION LEVEL of.

[glynn]

The range at which so many fools "think" that they can reliably hit dodging, cover using men? Why don't you bring a group of punks, and TRY chasing down a man in the wooded hills, who has a suppressed autorifle some time? See how well your "team tactics" work when you aint got a clue where he fired from, and when the range is 300m or so, and when he can move all night after firing at you. LOL. Just because you are stupid enough to let the enemy box you into a building doesn't mean that everyone is as dumb as you are.

[Coyote]

Like simunitions or paintball reach 300 yds? The range at which so many fools "think" that they can reliably hit dodging, cover using men?

Paintball is able to reproduce the unpredictability of shooting at a living target, and being shot at. Your drill is easy, even under the conditions you stated because it is predictable.

Why don't you bring a group of punks, and TRY chasing down a man in the wooded hills, who has a suppressed autorifle some time?

Yes we'll get right on that.

"Here (random name), wouldya settle a bet? Just take this suppressed autorifle and head for the wooded hills. Me and my group of punks are going to TRY chasing you down."

See how well your "team tactics" work when you aint got a clue where he fired from, and when the range is 300m or so, and when he can move all night after firing at you. LOL.

Irrelevant, since both parties, (one shooter with a suppressed weapon, other unsuppressed) are just as likely to get the drop on one another, and since anyone can move all night, terrain, weather and light allowing, irregardless of their choice of weapon accessories.

Just because you are stupid enough to let the enemy box you into a building doesn't mean that everyone is as dumb as you are.

What enemy?

What building? :rolleyes:

[BigEd63]

Maybe I'm missing something but when did a supressor also function as a sci-fi cloaking device?

[RIKA]

Maybe I'm missing something but when did a supressor also function as a sci-fi cloaking device?

That long tubular thingy also confers the mystic powers of the ninja upon its user as well as the power to glide silently through thick forests on moonless lights, read men's minds and have superhuman strength and abilities. I have been told that its the thing that is first and foremost on the mind of every 12 year old boy. :dgrin:

RIKA

[gripper]

Why does this seem soooooo familiar??.....how ya been,JD?

[brass hammer]

The range at which so many fools "think" that they can reliably hit dodging, cover using men? Why don't you bring a group of punks, and TRY chasing down a man in the wooded hills, who has a suppressed autorifle some time? See how well your "team tactics" work when you aint got a clue where he fired from, and when the range is 300m or so, and when he can move all night after firing at you. LOL. Just because you are stupid enough to let the enemy box you into a building doesn't mean that everyone is as dumb as you are.

OR,? 'HOW' ABOUT [3] 145 POUND COMMIE 'ZIPPER-HEADS',,,[i.e, WORKING FER THE GOOD OF THE 'CAUSE' ,,,firing/shuckin'/jivin'/ADVANCING on 'yer'

own SOLO-****-HOLE!,,,HUMMMmmm??? :bounce:

[Magnum88C]

Hundred bucks on the "zipperheads".

[Aslan]

The range at which so many fools "think" that they can reliably hit dodging, cover using men? Why don't you bring a group of punks, and TRY chasing down a man in the wooded hills, who has a suppressed autorifle some time?

sigh.

See how well your "team tactics" work when you aint got a clue where he fired from, and when the range is 300m or so, and when he can move all night after firing at you.

300m at night in the woods. OK. You're assuming they have no clue where you fired from. I doubt you've ever done a single night exercise in your life. They don't have to know exactly where you fired from, initially. They can, however begin boxing you in. and moving on you from several directions. They have the advantage of having some people sit tight and watch for movement while the others move. If you're making 300m shots and relocating in the dark, then you can be seen (or heard). Every time you shoot and scoot, they are moving in closer. They might even be driving you into an ambush that you never saw coming. How do you know the group you saw is everybody, hmm?

LOL. Just because you are stupid enough to let the enemy box you into a building doesn't mean that everyone is as dumb as you are.

Let just hope that you never have to find out first hand how wrong you are bout this stuff...

:devil:

[Aslan]

In fact, here's a little exercise you can try with your buddies (if you have any).

pick a date, time, and a hunk of woods. You buddies can get as many people as they want. You don't get to know how many or where they will be starting from.

At the agreed upon time, you will enter the wooded area from any where you want. They don't get to know where. They will enter from where ever they want (possibly even multiple locations depending on how many people they get), and they begin hunting you.

You don't get to see how many people they start with, or where they do their insertions. The exercise ends when you are killed or the agreed upon time limit expires.

you can be creative on how to simulate weapons. Laser pointers could be used. I have one that will reach 300m easily.

Unless your buddies are incompetent, you will learn a lot.

:devil:

[Wylycoyte]

In fact, here's a little exercise you can try with your buddies (if you have any).

pick a date, time, and a hunk of woods. You buddies can get as many people as they want. You don't get to know how many or where they will be starting from.

At the agreed upon time, you will enter the wooded area from any where you want. They don't get to know where. They will enter from where ever they want (possibly even multiple locations depending on how many people they get), and they begin hunting you.

You don't get to see how many people they start with, or where they do their insertions. The exercise ends when you are killed or the agreed upon time limit expires.

you can be creative on how to simulate weapons. Laser pointers could be used. I have one that will reach 300m easily.

Unless your buddies are incompetent, you will learn a lot.

:devil:

Sounds fun, Aslan. Got any "general scenarios" that you've run or would like to run like this? I've got a group of parties who might be interested in getting in on this kind of action.

[Aslan]

generally our scenarios have been:

single man, or up to 5 man team hunted by the other team(s).

The largest we ever had was twenty five hunting two.

Paintball makes it a lot of fun, and there's no cheating over hit's. Simunitions are best, but there's issues in getting the rounds. If you go the simunition route, there HAS to be a safety officer that inspects all weapons and magazines...plus eye and head protection is mandatory. You can kill someone with a simunition.

we've done it where we did not allow any night vision or flashlights, we've done it where if you have it, you can bring it.

If you are going to use radios, you will learn quickly that an ear-bud is essential.

To start with, I'd use a relatively small wooded are with a short time limit (like a couple hours) and adjust up or down as you do more of these.

It's pretty educational and a lot of fun.

use your imagination.

:devil:

[John in AR]

Only thing I’d change in Aslan’s exercise is the ending point. Rather than either a) death of the loner or b) a time limit, I’d make it until either a) the pursuers kill the loner, or b) the loner kills the pursuers. That’s more realistic, imo.

In a post-shtf situation, while there would admittedly be a desire to abandon the hunt out of demoralization if one or two of your fellow pursuers were killed, there would be a VERY strong desire to continue the hunt and eliminate the threat, both out of vengeance, and (more importantly) a need to eliminate the need to spend all day, every day, from then on, looking over your shoulder because you knew the threat still existed out there.

There’s no “calling time-out” in the real world, and folks who are trying to re-build a life are (IMO) going to be more willing to spend a day or two on the locating & eliminating of a threat, than spend the rest of their lives in fear of that threat.

[Aslan]

Well, some of us have jobs, wives, etc. As these progress, some of these exercises could last days.

You are correct about no-timeouts in real life. But this is a training exercise, which means when it's over you discuss what worked, what didn't and what you would have done differently. Then, on the next exercise, you try some of those things.

And you may be the predator for one exercise and the prey for the next. (we call these predator & prey exercises)

There's a "C" to your options above, C - the prey eludes the predators.

He who runs away, lives to fight another day. There are time when the best thing in the world for you to do is run. It's highly unlikely you'd be able to completely eliminate a force with 12 to 1 superiority. Your best bet is to run like a scared little girl - without the screaming part.

:devil:

[John in AR]

My point was that if trying to simulate as close to real as possible, there wouldn't be a pre-arranged "game time" between the two sides.

Well, some of us have jobs, wives, etc. As these progress, some of these exercises could last days.

You are correct about no-timeouts in real life. But this is a training exercise, which means when it's over you discuss what worked, what didn't and what you would have done differently. Then, on the next exercise, you try some of those things.

And you may be the predator for one exercise and the prey for the next. (we call these predator & prey exercises)

There's a "C" to your options above, C - the prey eludes the predators.

He who runs away, lives to fight another day. There are time when the best thing in the world for you to do is run. It's highly unlikely you'd be able to completely eliminate a force with 12 to 1 superiority. Your best bet is to run like a scared little girl - without the screaming part.

:devil:

+1 all the above. I'm not to proud to run away myself.

[7of7]

I play paintball,... The scenario games are alot of fun, as you are given objectives against the 'enemy' . It continues into the night, wee hours of the mornings in most cases, then continues after about a 5 hour break. One thing I have learned in those games,,, a good situation can go south in one heck of a hurry. The best ones are the two day games... The first time you hear the paintballs whizzing by,....it does get the adrenalin going.

[Aslan]

Paintball games tend to be run as capture the flag or last man standing type scenarios. These are good, but usually are set up as games. This isn't a bad thing.

What we do it really set up to learn how to be stealthy, how to avoid ambushes, how to break contact, etc.

We make the sides as unfair as we can - on purpose. It's always a superior force hunting an inferior one.

We do these solely as night exercises...

:devil:

[brass hammer]

Well, some of us have jobs, wives, etc. As these progress, some of these exercises could last days.

You are correct about no-timeouts in real life. But this is a training exercise, which means when it's over you discuss what worked, what didn't and what you would have done differently. Then, on the next exercise, you try some of those things.

And you may be the predator for one exercise and the prey for the next. (we call these predator & prey exercises)

There's a "C" to your options above, C - the prey eludes the predators.

He who runs away, lives to fight another day. There are time when the best thing in the world for you to do is run. It's highly unlikely you'd be able to completely eliminate a force with 12 to 1 superiority. Your best bet is to run like a scared little girl - without the screaming part.

:devil:

OH, YOU BASTARD, YOU!!! for YOU DO POSSESS,,,TOTAL-RECALL!!! :laugh01: :beer:

[Aslan]

Brass - you never fail to surprise me. :beer: :beer: :beer:

:devil:

[Aslan]

BTW - first to "die" buys the beer....

:devil:

[warriorscreed]

its not the dog in the fight , its the fight in the dog

[Aslan]

This thread keeps resurrecting...

But it is a fun exercise - I thought I was pretty good (not great, but good) until I participated in the first one of these.

It's fun and educational.

And you are correct - it's the person that matters.

[brass hammer]

ha!,I CAUGHT "FABER vs. PULVER",,,last-nite.,,,[talk about a frickin' BLITZKRIEG}

it was a HEADS-UP on combat[one-on-one] ,,,as faber PRESSED THE ATTACK!/PULVER manned-out[took-hits/LAUGHED]!!!
both ARE MEMBERS in "THE LODGE of the IRONSPINE.

OTHER THAN THAT SIMULATION-AMMO, the 'armys' MILES system,,,,WAS pretty-cool !,YET, NOTHING SHORT OF 'killin'/bleedin' COMES CLOSE.


:wavey:

[gripper]

yeah Brass'!...Those two do NOT have a reverse gear.Pretty neat when you consider that Uriah does NOT get that much into weight training ;but rather lots of body weight work and LOTS of drills involving explosive movements.The two of them definitiely suprised me;as I had expected the fight to be largely decided on th eground. But, I guess each respected the others BJJ/wrestling ability so much that they more or less cancelled that and opted for a :-punch::-punch:fest.
Heres to a network follow up with Feodor and(:laugh01:) Kimbo Slice !

[neolithic hunter]

ok, go to Iraq or Afghanistan. that's the only places to get realistic battle practice.

[RorionP]

Ok paintball and airsoft are fun and can be exciting but as far as giving you anything close to being in real combat dont kid yourself its nothing like that. I will agree that it does give you somethings that would be useful. Exercise, How to wear some really annoying equipment, how to work together, and some stealth and movement tactics. Its fun and a GAME. So if you want some real experience. You'll get free gear,housing,food, a trip half way around the world to a sunny sandy place and they actually pay you to learn what your paying to try to learn now. Join the ARMY.

[themadride]

Ok paintball and airsoft are fun and can be exciting but as far as giving you anything close to being in real combat dont kid yourself its nothing like that. I will agree that it does give you somethings that would be useful. Exercise, How to wear some really annoying equipment, how to work together, and some stealth and movement tactics. Its fun and a GAME. So if you want some real experience. You'll get free gear,housing,food, a trip half way around the world to a sunny sandy place and they actually pay you to learn what your paying to try to learn now. Join the ARMY.

Joining the army and going overseas to war is not "practice" as neolithic described, but rather "the real thing". I don't think paintball experience would be a great help in any combat situation, but I think...as someone who is not a military man......if I ever found myself in combat...I would gladly take that experience over nothing.

EDIT: Upon thinking a bit further...here are some reasons why:

Paintball (although I have limited experience with it) Teaches:
how to use peripheral vision while engaged
teamwork
ammo rationing
map reading and navigation
communications
intelligence gathering
and more



ASLAN: When talking about the Hunted game...one way to make it realistic and yet not continuing indefinitely is to have a goal for the hunted, an "Extraction point" where the party must reach before being caught for their "air lift":-)
We have done that in the past and it opens up all sorts of new opportunities. As sometimes instead of attacking the hunted...you can just track them and do recon in an attempt to determine their goal location, so that you can then move to block them more effectively.
Paintball scout recon is fun...unlike real scout recon...which I imagine is purely terrifying.