No Room for Precision?!?

[DaRkWoLf]

One cool aspect of the dojo I attend is that we get exposure to multiple opinions and styles through multiple, rotating instructors while the dojo grandmaster is always available. On Thursday, we were doing some knife drills and I incorporated a little pressure point work into my initial strike by simply moving the point of contact a tad up the adversaries arm. It worked very well, adversary lost control of his arm for a short period (remember, controlled contact here, I wasn't trying to make him numb for a week) and he was rather receptive to the offensive attacks which followed the initial strike which allowed me to also close the gap, all while the rubber blade didn't get any real contact on me; and the results were repeatable. After we switched roles and I was the aggressor for a while, I asked our instructor if what I was adding in was at all detrimental in the scenario being drilled. His answer was that in a real fight the precision was close to impossible and it'd take some real balls to attempt.

While I see where he's coming from, I have some reservations.

Firstly, I don't know how it'd require that much more aggressiveness. In a knife fight one is typically supposed to expect to sustain some damage, and keeping a closed gap is a way to limit any sort of momentum that would result in penetration capable of causing a fatal wound. If you are going to fight you are going to fight; if one isn't all there then you may as well curl up and become victimized.

As for precision, thoughts pertaining to my recent firearms training came to my mind. I get a serious bitching out when I don't stack two rounds on targets head-sections (be it against static targets with live rounds or in airsoft simulations). It's expected and demanded of me, causing me to demand it of myself. I don't think its some superhuman feat either. Why shouldn't this apply to any other combative as well? Training and practice make all that seemingly hard stuff really easy; it just happens.

As long as one is still in "red" (higher-level thought still possible and actions are expressions of what has been trained) instead of "black" (higher-level thought dissolved) mode during a fight, is there an excuse for there not to be precision or at least strive towards it? It takes time to get to that level, and I am no where near it in many areas, but I don't think it is by any means a foolish notion.

What say ye?

[BigEd63]

I say go for it. Martial arts of any kind should be about constantly raising goals and working at reaching them. Not getting to a certain level and stagnating there.

[Coyote]

Precision is excellent and well worth working on; I can't see any reason not
to. Just bear in mind that the ring is different than the world. Things happen faster, people aren't in your weight class, they don't come from the opposite corner of the mat and things happen at "in your face" distances.

Firstly, I don't know how it'd require that much more aggressiveness. In a knife fight one is typically supposed to expect to sustain some damage, and keeping a closed gap is a way to limit any sort of momentum that would result in penetration capable of causing a fatal wound. If you are going to fight you are going to fight; if one isn't all there then you may as well curl up and become victimized.

Couldn't disagree with you more I'm afraid. If a knife is out, run. A stab wound to the vitals may be what is required to kill you immediately but it isn't required to put you out of the fight.

How thick of a steak can you cut through with your folder (assuming you carry one)? How much pressure or speed is required to make that cut? Your arm is no different than that steak, and it won't be working at all when your muscle, nerves and tendons are severed.

IMO there are a few "moves" that are effective against a knife or similar weapon, and they usually aren't fancy.

-Create distance, find a weapon with reach; bat or club, curtain rod, chair, etc.
-Draw your own knife, create a standoff.
-Draw your own knife, plus a gun if you are lucky enough to be carrying.
-Kick to the groin, then run.
-Make sure to do these while emptying a can of mace into his face.

Most (some are alright) of the moves that are taught in dojos and SD videos are, IMHO, useless. Any move that has you controlling an opponents arm with both of yours can get you cut; the knife is handed off and you're in a worse place than you were before because you are grappling with the guy. They'll work against morons but don't count on always meeting morons. Strikes are risky too. Yours might be precise and powerful, his are life changing or life ending, and they can rob you of your ability to fight at all.
The best possible move you can practice: Sprinting. If you do anything else, follow up by turning around, and booking it as fast as you possibly can.

[BadKarma]

I'm inclined to agree with Coyote on this one. The LAST place I want to be in a one sided knife fight is up close. Or an evenly matched knife fight for that matter. Approaching a knife is like circling into a hook. It increases damage sustained.

My goal is to create distance, and engage if I have no other choice. Anyone with any knife awareness will go from stab to slash when you get in distance. Anyone with NO knife awareness will slash instinctively.

Silat and Kali practice close quarter knife drills extensively. The goal being to close distance, ground you, and cut you a lot while you are down. Besides, if your opponent has skill with a knife, you won't even know he has it until he's cut/stabbed you.

that's just my .02

[krept]

Larry Vickers has a good quote... speed is fine, accuracy is final. From my armchair commando perspective, I'm on the fence... at some point there are diminishing returns and when you train train train for that doubletap to the head, your chances of getting it when needed are certainly more than if you didn't focus on it so much... but...

Larry is former Delta. He demands crazy accuracy from his 1911s because of the nature of his former ops. Basically, a headshot at 20 yards may be the only way to end a high profile hostage situation.

On the flipside, you have guys who have also been in deadly encounters that more approach what we would see as civilians. Guys like LEOs. They advocate multiple COM hits, shooting the bad guy to the dirt. To me, that goes along with what the average cat would do during an adrenaline dump, so it makes sense to train as such.

there is a pretty good forum that deals with "Getting of the X" or moving off the kill spot asap. Head moves way faster than the body and in boxing it makes sense to hit the body to slow the head down. With all the crazy factors present in a deadly force on force encounter, I definitely wouldn't want to rely on a target the size of a softball moving fast when there is a slower soccerball to nail.

I guess the point is that there are really good reasons for both techniques and that's what makes it a decent debate.

As far as knife fighting... the people who are familiar with the ugly side of it refer to it more as "knife killing" because "fighting" seems to imply this Hollywood-esque duel of tit-for-tat poking. One place where people are frequently killed with knives is in prison and much like an assault, rapid and repeated shanking to the COM and face/neck is what gets it done. Sometimes the femoral or kidneys if that is what is presented in the scramble. I know it's hard to train like that, but as was alluded to it's raw, ugly violence that frequently overwhelmes the opponent.

This isn't to say that precision should be left out the door. It's really important... but... equally important in knife and handgun work is the explosiveness and violence. in HTH, maybe not so much because there is a greater opportunity for feints, setups and such, but when a weapon is introduced the level of lethality is greatly increased and it's gotta be dealt with immeadiatly.

[krept]

okay i just found this, might give you a little more food for thought:

http://www.suarezinternational.com/interfacetrailer.wmv

IMO when we talk about knife training, this is more the way to do it (I don't know how you train). I think you can get an idea of the level of intensity there vs. for example, what I was exposed to in Aikido. You can also see some good extreme CQB gunwork with a plastic trainer... IMO another solid way to train and integrate the different tools.

btw, that's the same Gabe we're talking about on the current AK thread.

[DblTap]

I agree with Coyote. Just Run, Real fast. No matter how much training you have and how well conditioned you are if you decide to fight someone with a knife you are betting your life that you are faster than they are. I'm not willing to make that bet unless there is no where to run. Thankfully I have never had to fight someone with a knife.