Duplicating older finishes

[BigJon]

I'm sitting here waiting for my last coat of rust blue to finish up on one of the Smith Model 10s I posted about awhile back. My next projects are to turn a coupl of NIB Colt slides from the last run of Series 70 into Colt/Caspians. I want to try something fun with them - make them something unusual. Most of the custom stuff you see these days has lots of bells and whistles that, at least to me, speak more to the maker's skill as a machinist than to his skill as a pistol craftsman. So, I was thinking it might be unique to do an old-school - or, perhaps a very-old-school finish, and something other than rust bluing.

I'm wondering if it is possible to duplicate at home the translucent, glossy black finish of early Colts, which I believe is cabonia, without a gas furnace (using, for instance, a cooker, and then oil to quench it in. If so, what oil?

Also, has anyone ever tried to truly charcoal blue - with a fire and then rubbing down with lime / oil?

Best,
Jon

[Gunners762]

I'm wondering if it is possible to duplicate at home the translucent, glossy black finish of early Colts, which I believe is cabonia, without a gas furnace (using, for instance, a cooker, and then oil to quench it in. If so, what oil? I've been told old dirty motor oil or you can use tranny fluid for quenching process. As for the Charcoal blue method i think was only used for small parts such as screws,pins and similar parts. I have some older gunsmith books here at my house that has the process and mixture formula's for different types of bluing. I can look something up for ya?

[Gunners762]

From what I just read in my one book I think the charcoal blue job should be no problem for a revolver. The directions seem simple enough... Charcoal and a cast iron skillet is what you need... Just to give you the heads up Jon, Jgsales.com has model 10 parts kits minus frames...

[BigJon]

Thanks, GM! I am really having fun with these old revolvers. (Here's the old thread: http://www.armslocker.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36237&page=1). I did my first rust blue job on one of 'em. Am keeping the other stock for now so I can compare my work to something. My first rust-blue job was FLAWLESS . . . in some places. In others, it sucked! lol! I was very careful to keep things clean, but I had applied cold blue to some parts (another experiment), and that may not have all come off before I tried rust bluing. I did, however, remove the import mark on the frame just below the cylinder, and you can't tell that any work was done. Now THAT job WAS perfect.

I'm just rolling things around in my head right now. My current Caspian should be done by summer, and then I have a Kimber to finish up. When I do the pair of Colt/Caspians, I just want something unique - nice, but not hot blued, not hard chromed, not parked, etc. If you have any ideas of what you think might look sweet, let me know - they'll be stocked in real elephant ivory with colt logos inlaid. I think fire blue would look great on the small parts, but if I do that, I don't know if I want to do a deep gloss black on the main stuff. Still thinking.

Best,
Jon

[BigJon]

Taste-wise, I like understated (which is good, since I don't have a mill or lathe! lol!). For example, here's a photo of a pistol done by Paul Liebenberg (Pistol Dynamics) that I really like the look of. Notice how the matte blue main stuff really sets off the fire-blued little parts?

(I can't get the photos to load, so here's a link to the photo: http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/BigJon3333/1911%20Misc/DSC_0061_L.jpg

What I believe I want is shown in the next photo, which is from Ron's Gun Shop:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/BigJon3333/1911%20Misc/rightwin.jpg

It's the high-gloss, but soft blue found on a lot of guns in the early 1900s. That finish, plus fire-blued parts, would, I think, look very, very schweet on a 1911 . . . especially with the elephant ivory.

Best,
on

[Gunners762]

What I believe I want is shown in the next photo, which is from Ron's Gun Shop: Nice Winchester ! Heat or Temper Blue was used extensively on earlier Winchesters. My book sez torch heat, charcoal, sand and nitre were used as the heat transfer media. For Winchester Nitre - You need a hot plate, potassium nitrate (common Salt peter) and some manganese oxide 'small amount'. They do warn you about mixing the two (Salt Peter)(manganese oxide).. Can be dangerous! The mixture needs to be heated to a constant 700-degree .

[Gunners762]

I did my first rust blue job on one of 'em. Am keeping the other stock for now so I can compare my work to something. My first rust-blue job was FLAWLESS . . . in some places. In others, it sucked! lol! I was very careful to keep things clean, Did you use a degreaser before you started?

[RIKA]

Bill Adair is a firearms restoration expert. Take a look at what he has to say about the different blueing methods (left side of page).

http://www.restoration-gunsmith.com/

RIKA

[BigJon]

GM - Yes sir - I boiled in soap and water, and then I soaked in Acetone, used rubber gloves, degreasted the gloves, etc., etc. I think I just didn't take the metal down far enough - the problem areas are those that I had Oxpho'd earlier.

Hi, Rika. Yep, already seen that site. Interesting that the professional refinishers with websites disagree about what carbonia really is, and also on whether Colt and Smith, or only Smith, used it.

I am really having fun with this.

Oh, and what did you end up doing with ... was it a Systema you recenntly acquired? Did you refinish it?

Best,
Jon

[RIKA]

Haven't done anything with the Sistema yet. Too busy with other more pressing problems now.

For rust blueing you have to really take it down to the bare steel to get good color and coverage. I've done a beater pistol and rifle with rust blue and they came out real good.

RIKA

[neolithic hunter]

rika i'm thinking about doing one of my 1927's in a color case hardened look. all that strw and blue and black should look good. i haven't decided yet though. i also thought about having the frame done in a high gloss bluing and doing the slide in high gloss plumb color. just don't know right now. :cool:

[BigJon]

I can look something up for ya?


Gm - Would you see if there's anything about hot oil bluing? Should be lots. Specifically, I'd be interested in knowing what oils are used, and at what parts temperatures to get what colors.

Best,
Jon

[Gunners762]

The book I have sez the main methods of bluing was Hot-Water Bluing, Nitre Bluing,Charcoal bluing,Slow rust bluing.The Oil-and-heat method sez it was one of the favorite methods of bluing and that the procedures was simple.Heat parts with torch until part is a dull red in color then quickly plunge part into oil.It should turn a nice temper blue.It sez if you want the color darker,repeat the operation. Nothing more to it.Take care of the oil igniting.Motor oil should fit the bill..Or tranny fluid. My book also tells you how to case color using bone meal,charred leather and charcoal.Some of the other metheds are more involved process and temp factors.

[RIKA]

rika i'm thinking about doing one of my 1927's in a color case hardened look. all that strw and blue and black should look good. i haven't decided yet though. i also thought about having the frame done in a high gloss bluing and doing the slide in high gloss plumb color. just don't know right now. :cool:

How about a high quality matt blue on top of the slide and on the frame with a gloss blue on the sides of the slide. Now add a true straw color (like a luger) to the slide stop, thumb safety and maybe the barrel bushing. Now that would be eyecatching and classy IMO.

RIKA

[Gunners762]

Have you tried distilled water and lye to clean your parts? You can try Di-Cro-clean No.909 ,table spoon of lye added to distilled water for cleaning .DICROPAN IM® KIT at BrownellsDICROCLEAN NO. 909 - PreCleaner. ...

[BigJon]

Thanks, bro! By gosh, I'm gonna try it! (Guess it's time to fire up the grill? lol!)

Did it say what "color" to heat the metal to?

[Gunners762]

Thanks, bro! By gosh, I'm gonna try it! (Guess it's time to fire up the grill? lol!)

Did it say what "color" to heat the metal to?torch until part is a dull red in color then quickly plunge part into oil...... I've read most of the early methods differed and that methods were gaurded secrets.

[BigJon]

How about a high quality matt blue on top of the slide and on the frame with a gloss blue on the sides of the slide. Now add a true straw color (like a luger) to the slide stop, thumb safety and maybe the barrel bushing. Now that would be eyecatching and classy IMO.

RIKA

NOW you're talking my language! And, I like the idea of the luger-type nitre-straw on the little parts. (Except I don't know about the bushing - might be just one brush stroke too many on the Mona Lisa, especially since I'm doing flush and recessed crowns. Maybe better to leave the pretty stuff at the back and the front all-business? I do like that straw idea - and hey! What about doing the straw with a high-gloss BLACK on the receiver and slide sides! Now THAT .... Hmmmmm!

[BigJon]

Have you tried distilled water and lye to clean your parts? You can try Di-Cro-clean No.909 ,table spoon of lye added to distilled water for cleaning .DICROPAN IM® KIT at BrownellsDICROCLEAN NO. 909 - PreCleaner. ...


I'm gonna go back with the rust and blue remover from Brownells, and then I have a LOT of metal work to do to get them to full shine. Once that's done, I'm gonna give the parts a full lye boil and then submerge them in acetone for awhile before heating and dunking (and yes, I think I'll let the acetone evaporate at least before I put the torch to the metal before dipping! lol!)

I'm still wondering what oil to use. I have heard "dirty" motor oil, but I"m not going to do that - not to a high-gloss prepped gun. I have also heard that tranny fluid works. Dunno.

I keep hearing about dunking in boiled linseed oil.

[BigJon]

We keep talking about finishes, but I want to make it clear - I'm experimenting on my old Smith Model 10s with the dunking, etc. When it comes to having the upcoming Colt/Caspians finished, I b'lieve I'll leave that to the pros.

[Gunners762]

I'm still wondering what oil to use. I have heard "dirty" motor oil, but I"m not going to do that - not to a high-gloss prepped gun. I have also heard that tranny fluid works. Dunno. Motor oil Vs. Tranny Fluid ... .Difference in results who knows? I used tranny fluid the last i tried. I used a 1861 Colt Navy "clone" and removed Italian proofs and "black powder only" markings. My barrel came out a plumbish color.If you look at it in the light you can see how purple it looks. I settled for that and was happy with the results. Its all in the prep work and cleaning and making sure nothing is contaminted if you want good results.

[BigJon]

Interesting stuff, GM. I'm wondering if the color - the purplish color you mentioned - was a result of the color of the oil. I'm still studying, and I have not yet found anything definitive that says whether the final color of the steel is imparted by the color to which it was heated, or the color or other properties of the quenching oil, or a little of both. I suspect it is the last. I know that with some of the old fire bluing methods, it was the heat of the steel to the blue color that gave it it's final color.

Interesting stuff!

[Gunners762]

Another thing jon is when you "boil clean parts" , make sure the parts are suspended one inch from bottom with iron stove pipe wire in the cleaning solution. Otherwise , "hot spots" and blotchy bluing will result.Are you using a cast iron pot for boil? Stainless steel? After boil you should rinse with clean "soft Water" / "Rain Water" or distilled water.

[Gunners762]

Interesting stuff, GM. I'm wondering if the color - the purplish color you mentioned - was a result of the color of the oil. I'm still studying, and I have not yet found anything definitive that says whether the final color of the steel is imparted by the color to which it was heated, or the color or other properties of the quenching oil, or a little of both. I suspect it is the last. I know that with some of the old fire bluing methods, it was the heat of the steel to the blue color that gave it it's final color. I think alot of it had to do with metal quality..What once looked good on a six iron probably taken on a different look as metallurgy progressed with steel.

[BigJon]

Right you are on the boiling. I'm using an old iron gumbo pot, and I suspend the parts / frame, etc. from a shiskebob skewer laid over the top of the pot, with rebar-tie wire (just plain, uncoated iron wire) hangers. I'm using whatever that funky water I get is - the "reverse osmosis" water? Can't remember what it says on the label.

[Gunners762]

This was left over tranny fluid from when I did my blue job. Lower right corner..I had that thing half full and a bitch to clean.... .http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b97/Gunners762/DSC01893.jpg

[BigJon]

Well, my gosh, Gunners! Is that an old Remington Model 11 shotgun in your photo? I ask because I have one (a 12 gauge) that has exactly the color wood as the gun in the photo. And I'll tell ya - it is a hard-kickin' SOB, that one is! First you hear the bang. Then you feel the shockwave through your jaw. Then you hear the dying vibrations of the main spring. Whew!