[andy]

if it starts a 90 gr vld at 2200 fps, it's still got 450 ft lbs left at 500 yds. If it starts the more common 69 gr smk at 2500 fps, it still hits at 500 yds like a plus P 158 gr lhp does at 3m, fired from a .38 snub. Since you guys are SO sure that a .38 snub is an adequate manstopper, so is the 10" 223, at 500 yds. At 300m, the 10" 223 can easily still have 600 ft lbs. So the bozos who "think" that a 10" 223 has nothing left at 300m are fos, quite demonstrably. Even if you "only' use the 69 gr smk in the 10" barrel, it will still have450 ft lbs, considerably more power than the .45 230 gr load has at the muzzle. So the shorty 223 is going to put that 69 gr smk CLEAN thru your chest at 300m, dumbass, and you will get a pneumothorax, and you' won't be doing CRAP after 20 seconds or so. since you aint going to RUN 250 m in 20 seconds (and throw a grenade) you'll have HAD it, dumbass. In fact, ifyou TRY to run with such a wound, you'll use up all your piddly bit of remaining strength in 15 seconds, and you wont make it 100m.

 

[Garand]

apples to oranges, Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!!!

 

[Piemaster]

There isn't a 224 90gr VLD.

I see that you've already been told that by someone here and I'm telling you again. Berger doesn't list a .224 90gr VLD in their catalog.

Then again maybe you're cramming a 90gr 6mm VLD into your winchester white box mexican match case that also holds a whole lot of powder.

2200fps from a fictious 90gr bullet in a 10" 223 and 2500fps from a 69gr SMK?
Dream on! That's not happening, period. Figure 2000fps with the 80gr VLD.

I see a year ago you were claiming 69gr @2800fps from an 11" barrel, what happened to the extra 300fps and the inch of barrel? Lose another 200fps from your 2500fps and you'll be in the ball park at least.

Why you are bothering with ft-lbs when you are using two bullets that will not expand and have not been shown to yaw sufficiently to fragment at much higher velocities than you are claiming let alone the lower velocities that are reality. YEs they will have to yaw significantly in order to be subject to enough stress to break apart and tear any pitifully small temporary cavity that was created. 22 caliber hole in, 22 caliber hole out, if it even makes it out.

A 22 caliber through and through wound is in no way a guarantee of a pneumothorax either tension or traumatic, in fact small caliber wounds are unlikely to cause any kind of a pneumothorax.

 

[Hard Ball]

GK is utterly ignorant in this area. He knows nothing about terminal ballistics. These are just fantasy loads for his fantasy rifle.

 

[DJetAce]

Energy isn't worth squat in a 10" POSCAR. The bullet won't expand worth shit. What is more a .357 magnum at 3 m most certenly will expand. Another stupid post by the master of stupidity. Gunkid!

 

[Piemaster]

and when I need another shot from my 357, I can pull the trigger 5, 6, or 7 more times and have it fire.

When mr ??gr VLD needs another shot he'll have to hand feed it into the chamber.

ANYONE who's ACTUALLY USED a heavy VLD bullet knows this to be true.

 

[Dorobuta]

what's the twist rate of the barrel in the 10" AR? something tells me it won't stabilize these bullets worth a hoot, and your accuracy will suffer. Or, are you planning to miss a lot?

Also, I'm curious as to what you think a 168gr .308 Barnes VOR-TX will do to you at that range? The hit is more likely, because: it will be shot from a proper length barrel, and we know it stabilizes perfectly fine.

It also suppresses very nicely.

 

[John in AR]

I honestly don't understand the never-ending search for some non-existent performance, due to constantly trying to use a non-existent bullet. Even if a person wants to use a 10"-barreled AR, fine; there are bullets out there that will make the gun as good as it's going to be. It's a caliber that inherently depends on velocity for performance, and if we intentionally reduce the one opportunity we have to impart velocity - the barrel - then we've inarguably reduced its ability to perform. There's no need - and no gain - in trying to cobble up some imaginary load. I absolutely DON'T want a 10" carbine in .223; but if I was in some situation where that's all I had, okay, so be it. Give me some decent rounds like a Fusion, a 69-grain PPU hollowpoint, or probably numerous other loadings, for that matter. Hornady even has some .223 SBR-specific load, although I don't know much of anything about it. But point being - it wouldn't be my favorite setup, but there are plenty of existing loads that would make it as good as that kind of gun is going to get.

So why constantly try to come up with some way-outside-the-box loading, unless it's nothing more than an ego thing - a way of saying "my 223 shorty is better than everyone else's 223 shorty"...? That is honestly the only reason I can come up with.

 

[BigEd]

Really don't understand it either and I own 2 AR "Pistols".
As the original owner of the Ozark Armory used to say "It is what it is.".
IMHO it's a CQB or up close jungle gun when burdened with other gear in rough terrain.
And it's about to get supplanted by other arms. At least by me in .300BO.

 

[Dorobuta]

if you're so fixated on 10" barrel, then .300 blackout is the answer. It suppresses extremely well, switching between subsonic and supersonic ammo is a magazine swap. 300 yards is doable with supersonic ammo that will reliably expand.

It out performs your shorty .223 in every conceivable manner. The only thing it doesn't do is use a .22 unit, which in my book is not a concern.

I'm more than capable of having a .22 pistol in addition to my rifle and full sized sidearm. (Yes, I've actually carried all three in the field. maybe you need to hit the gym)

 

[John in AR]

10" 223... ...if it starts a 90 gr vld at 2200 fps
...If it starts the more common 69 gr smk at 2500 fps..

And ...if I were younger, richer, and better-looking... I'd be Brad Pitt.


(I love QuickLoad)

Firstly, a 10" .223 will launch a 69-grain bullet at roughly what you claim it will do with a 90-grain bullet; hitting 2275fps or so with 23.5 grains of N140. It will not launch the 90-grain at that velocity. (Actually it can launch the 90-grainer at that velocity using 22.4 grains, but you'd be running more than 70,000psi in a cartridge rated for 55,000psi, which no sane person would want to do on a regular basis.)

If you're willing to go to a grown-up size carbine with a 16" barrel, you can hit 2250fps with a 90-grain bullet. But not with a 10" barrel, sorry.

And to get decent accuracy with that bullet, even the manufacturers will tell you you need at least a 1:6 twist, preferably a 1:5. So now your gun is horrid for use with the rimfire adapter that you say we must use. (.22LR ammo is made for use in barrels with 1:16 or so twists; about one-third the twist rate you need for these .223 uberbullets.)

Why go to all kinds of weirded-out custom-fab stuff to try and force the .223 to equal what a .300whisper/blackout does every day of the week with off-the-shelf factory stuff...? Instead of a 69-grain bullet at 2250fps (775 ft/lbs), the 10" .300bk gives 110 grains at 2260fps (measured from my 10" gun, giving 1247 ft/lbs), and that's with plain-jane over-the-counter Vmax ammo. And it does it in the same size gun, same size magazine, etc. You spent years praising the .300 whisper when you thought nobody else knew about it, and you've spent years trying to make the .223 do what the .300whisper/blackout easily does. Why fight reality? I'm personally okay with either a 10" or 16" gun, but if a person just 'had' to have the shorty, the .300bk wins in every performance category we care to measure. Every one. Period.

So why - as in "what is the reason for" sticking with .223, when .223-level performance obviously isn't what you want. I like the .223 and it's the caliber my primary gun is in, so no .223 hate here. But I'm also okay with actual .223 performance. I'm not trying to force the caliber to be something it's not; but you constantly are.

 

[BigEd]

...I love QuickLoad)

Firstly, a 10" .223 will launch a 69-grain bullet at roughly what you claim it will do with a 90-grain bullet; hitting 2275fps or so with 23.5 grains of N140. It will not launch the 90-grain at that velocity. (Actually it can launch the 90-grainer at that velocity using 22.4 grains, but you'd be running more than 70,000psi in a cartridge rated for 50,000psi. Which no sane person would want to do on a regular basis).

I believe unfortunately that the parts I put in bold and underlined in particular are the issue here.
I'm going to have to do some hard decision making and asking for some opinions on posts of Melvin's like that.

 

[John in AR]

At least he didn't post load specifics - saying "use X grains of ABC powder" to achieve it. I've done that, but it's based on QuickLoad calcs and done as a way to reduce risk, not increase it.