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Has anybody have any experience with an AR-15 with this short a barrel? I have to believe both accuracy and velocity would suffer. I know the CAR-15's with short barrel were notoriously inaccurate and malfunctioned a lot. They looked Cool, though.
 

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My only experience-many years in the past- led me to the conclusion that the gas system gets a bit overwhelmed .Heats up fast.They ARE a lot better now, simply because there's been so many competing SBR development; there HAD to have been progress regarding function. I still consider heavier bullets/bigger bore to be my preference in a 10 inch barrel. There ARE better 5.56 loadings available though
 

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I DO wonder about something though: how does the 6.8 SPC do in its current loadings out of a 10.5 inch barreled upper? I was curious, because the VEPR is now available in 6.5 Grendel... Not the same thing, obviously; but I was thinking a comparatively straight walled case like the 6.8 as an optional SBR upper-OR a dedicated stand alone SBR-might be worth consideration.
 

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Sorry, I have a 14.5" & 16" barrels on my AR15
 

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not to me. The 223 does fine and I certainly aint giving up the military rd and the .22 unit. The heavier bullets just mean even less velocity in the short barrel, ie, less effective range
 

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I had a 10.5" a long time ago, & sold it at a ridiculous price during the 94-04 awb. Blast was definitely worse than my 16 and 14.5 inch guns, but with the permanent flash-hider, wasn't as much worse as I would have thought. It was definitely worse, but I shoot rifles outdoors exclusively and in those open spaces it was mainly directed away from the shooter. If used indoors, it would be horrific if used without a good suppressor.

I never chrono'ed anything from it that I recall, but ballistics by the inch shows how much that type of round depends on barrel to do its job. Numbers for typical 55-grain UMC fmj stuff:

16" - 2963 fps, 1059 ft/lbs
14" - 2878 fps, 1011 ft/lbs
12" - 2724 fps, 906 ft/lbs
10" - 2616 fps, 836 ft/lbs

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

Basically iirc, a 20" gun gives at 150-175 yards or so what a 10" or 10.5" gun gives at the muzzle. So figure we cut 150-175 yards off the .223's capability from such a short barrel - not as good as a full-size gun, but still plenty adequate; especially for short-range defensive use. I'd trust my 16" guns out to 300 yards or so, and my 20" heavy gun out to past 400; so basically that (to me) makes a 10" gun in the same caliber good for 200 yards or so, give or take.

That said, I like the 16" primarily for ease of keeping it reliable with various loads. The pistol-length DI AR action is pretty finicky, and the sweet spot between under-gassed and over-driving the BCG is pretty narrow. My 16" guns, I can run heavy 5.56 loads, light PMC Bronze stuff and spiky-pressure-curve wolf steel stuff with equal aplomb. With a pistol-length action, that's likely to be not as easily achieved.
 

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I use the 7.62x39 in a10.5 inch barreled AK pistol. I have nothing against the 5.56( or the 5.45 for that matter). I just consider the majority of loadings available in both calibers better suited to a 14.5-20 inch barrel. Seeing as the AK pistols in 7.62x39 give up less at the muzzle-and launch a heavier bullet- and that MOST (but not all AR's ) do better with a less tapered cartridge geometry; I was thinking the 6.8 might be a good upper ..and unlike the Grendel( which I like a lot-oooh I want that VEPR!) I believe (but could be wrong) the 6.8 can be run on the same bolt,or at least with a minmal parts swap on a 5.56lower.
Just burning some brain cells and synaptic gaps wondering.
 

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the further away they are, the less you need an instantaneous stop. I couldn't care less if a guy flops around for a minute at 400 yds, before expiring from a hit from my 10" 223. I couldnt care less that a sp wouldn't expand beyond 200 yds, fired from a 10" barrel. I'll settle for "only" hitting him at 400 yds as hard as .45 ball hits him at 10 ft. He can't do anything to me from 400 yds, with a lethal hit in him. With a poor hit from a 308 ball rd, he might do all kinds of things, too.

it's far, far more important to me that the gun be HANDY with a (truly effective) silencer on it, and also be concealable, at least when taken down and in your pack. how many rides do you think you'll get, being seen to be hitching with a slung rifle? :) how many times will you be ignored, vs all the twits that are in view and don't have a rifle?
 

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I personally prefer 12.5" because it's just past the burn and pressure curves of general issue ammo. They shoot a lot closer to 14.5" than they do 10.5"

10.5s are well proliferated and understood now. There aren't really issues anymore. Mk18 clones are all over the place.
 

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Consistency will always be better with shorter and fatter barrels on behalf of elastic deformation caused by being on planet earth.

Accuracy is all you if you have consistently tight capabilities.
 

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the reality is that over 90% of the non-accidental hits made in rifle combat occur at less than 100m, that most hits ARE random accidents, that most hits are poor hits, and it takes many 1000's of rds to get each hit. Which is why .30 and 7mm bores will never come back as GI rds, by any military. It's just wasted effort to haul such rds into the combat zone. Less than 10% of battlefield casulaties are caused by rifle bullets.
 

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The key is a proper barrel. It has to be of good quality in spec to start with. An acquaintance of mine bought a complete upper from QPC/Bushmaster approximately 22years ago that was a POS both chamber (rough) and over gassed. His pistol never ran right.
I have two now that run fine. One I was assembled myself using a Green Mountain brand barrel that's chrome lined and has a extractor support pin in the barrel extension.
Also I mounted a Midwest Industries blast diverter on the muzzle which helps tremendously with the short barrel.
The other one has a complete "Commando" upper bought from Suarez International and runs fine.
While I never really bought either as bench rest guns while properly braced they have decent accuracy. Both are 1-7" twist and the Green Mountain Barrel one free floated is 1MOA capable if solidly braced.
The Commando one probably close but there's no free float handguard or match trigger and just a red dot and regular sights.
 

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the reality is that over 90% of the non-accidental hits made in rifle combat occur at less than 100m, that most hits ARE random accidents, that most hits are poor hits, and it takes many 1000's of rds to get each hit. Which is why .30 and 7mm bores will never come back as GI rds, by any military. It's just wasted effort to haul such rds into the combat zone. Less than 10% of battlefield casulaties are caused by rifle bullets.
This is totally wrong on so many points. Stop trying to perpetuate a lie. Every single squad level engagement says you are wrong. You need to take some time and educate your self.
 

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Has anybody have any experience with an AR-15 with this short a barrel? I have to believe both accuracy and velocity would suffer. I know the CAR-15's with short barrel were notoriously inaccurate and malfunctioned a lot. They looked Cool, though.
An AR-15 chambered for .300 blackout with a short barrel is just about a perfect weapon. it will out perform the same gun chambered for .223 in every way possible - with supersonic and subsonic ammo. You lose the horribly bad option of the .22 unit, which has zero application for a fighting weapon. you are smarter and safer to carry a dedicated .22 for foraging, if that is your plan.
 

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An AR-15 chambered for .300 blackout with a short barrel is just about a perfect weapon. it will out perform the same gun chambered for .223 in every way possible - with supersonic and subsonic ammo. You lose the horribly bad option of the .22 unit, which has zero application for a fighting weapon. you are smarter and safer to carry a dedicated .22 for foraging, if that is your plan.
This.
 

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the further away they are, the less you need an instantaneous stop. I couldn't care less if a guy flops around for a minute at 400 yds, before expiring from a hit from my 10" 223. I couldnt care less that a sp wouldn't expand beyond 200 yds, fired from a 10" barrel. I'll settle for "only" hitting him at 400 yds as hard as .45 ball hits him at 10 ft. He can't do anything to me from 400 yds, with a lethal hit in him. With a poor hit from a 308 ball rd, he might do all kinds of things, too.

it's far, far more important to me that the gun be HANDY with a (truly effective) silencer on it, and also be concealable, at least when taken down and in your pack. how many rides do you think you'll get, being seen to be hitching with a slung rifle? :) how many times will you be ignored, vs all the twits that are in view and don't have a rifle?
so, what's the bullet drop at 400 yards from your shorty AR?

and if it is SHTF, I'd not be hitching rides while appearing to be unarmed...
 

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Fwiw, I do nowadays have a short (10") AR again. This time technically a pistol instead of carbine, so no need for the nearly-half-pound 5.5" flash hider like my previous 10.5" one had back in the late 80's. This one has effectively a very small version of the KAK "flash can" on it and is very fast-handling. One of the best things about it is that even with its miniscule 10" barrel, it actually has the same power as my bigger and heavier 16" AR, so it's fine not only for defensive use but even for deer-size game.


Of course, that's because it's in .300 blackout instead of 223...
 
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...I certainly aint giving up the military rd...
Why, specifically?

I get why organizations with multiple users that have to be armed (military, police, whatever) would want the standardization of a "military" caliber. But for a lone individual, who according to you needs less than a hundred rounds of it for all of shtf, what advantage does the military-issue aspect give? Completely serious question and would really like a response.
 

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Why, specifically?

I get why organizations with multiple users that have to be armed (military, police, whatever) would want the standardization of a "military" caliber. But for a lone individual, who according to you needs less than a hundred rounds of it for all of shtf, what advantage does the military-issue aspect give? Completely serious question and would really like a response.
And that is an excellent question for a number of reasons, what if your laws ban certain styles of firearms and you have to look for something more exotic? I've known hunters that have moved to off grid areas up north and bulk buy ammunition and reloading supplies for their favorite hunting rifle or shotgun before they moved. Just because I own a .30-30, a .32-40, a .45-70, a 6.5x55mm, etc as long as I have invested in an ammunition stockpile any firearm can be used for hunting and self defense if it is utilized within its limitations.

Example, take the plain old Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 in some place in the north eastern US, like Maine, Vermont, etc. An individual with a stock of 300 rds of ammo will be able to harvest a lot of animals and I doubt that in that area you will find a lot of people running through the deep bush with 10" AR's.
 
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...what if your laws ban certain styles of firearms...
True; or even particular calibers if not the gun types themselves. In some countries where people can own guns, they're specifically NOT allowed to own military-caliber guns. That's the reason that the 9x21 caliber exists at all. IIRC, it was originally Italy (not sure on that) that outlawed private citizen ownership of 9mm parabellum guns, so to get around that, the 9x21 was created as a slightly less powerful workaround.

I agree with you on the .30-30 & a few hundred rounds; very capable caliber in a reliable & lightweight gun, capable of both defensive use (and did that very thing for decades for a whole lot of people), plus adequate for most game in North America. If I were forced to not have a semiauto, a levergun would be my rifle choice. It would probably be in .357 magnum since in my area the game is mostly smallish and the distances are short. A little 16" levergun in .357 would give ammo options from 1100 ft/lb magnum loads all the way down to subsonic loads pushing a .35-caliber bullet at .45acp hardball power levels, and even lighter loads if desired for taking small game.

Still waiting for an answer to the question I've asked gunkid numerous times - if a person's total needs for centerfire rifle ammo is less than a hundred rounds (which is the argument made for years now), why does the "mil-spec" aspect of caliber choice have any significance? If three or four mags of ammo is enough to get me through "all of shtf", resupply and standardization is rendered a moot point. The fact that the mil-spec round in this particular case can also use a quieter sub-caliber conversion is handy, but that's only relevant to the "22 unit" argument; nothing to do with "not giving up the military round". There are .32acp adapters for .30-caliber guns, so that's not a .223-only thing. Heck, a lot .410 shotgun can shoot .45-caliber handgun ammo, including .45Colt, .45schofield, .45cowboy special, etc; from substantially powerful to mouse-fart quiet loads. So anything from birdshot to 750+ ft/lbs, just by changing what you shove in the tube.
 
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