[mrostov]

Looking at the REAL ballistics of the CAR-15 with an 11.5" barrel, seems to me that you might as well pack a 12ga shotgun loaded with military grade flechettes. You also have a much higher first shot hit probability per shot at the ranges that 11.5" CAR-15 is good at.

For use in pre-SHTF times, the 11.5" barrel on the CAR-15 is illegal unless federally registered, and the AR itself is just illegal and restricted in many jurisdictions.

A shotgun is legal pretty much anywhere in the USA and in most of the world for that matter.

Now, while flechette ammo may not be legal everywhere, the flechettes are loaded into commercial cases and are indistinguishable from normal ammo.

As for conceilability, a shotgun can also be easier to conceil than an AR by a significant margin.

There are some with silencer fantasies, where the silencer is the 'magic wand' that always ensures victory, but this is nonsense. Yes a shotgun is hard to silence, but you get pulled over with a shotgun in your trunk, and it's no problem. You get pulled over with a suppressed 11.5" CAR-15 in your trunk, it's a BIG problem.

M1A7 Sabot Muzzle Velocity - 1925 ft/sec
Single Flechette Muzzle Energy - 66.17 ft/lb
Flechette Cluster Muzzle Energy - 1257.23 ft/lb
Single Flechette Weight - 8gr
Flechette Cluster Weight - 152gr
Packing - 19 flechettes per 2-3/4" shell

Point Target Range - 75m
Area Target Range - 150m
Max Effective Range - 300m

http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/index.html
TARGET GROUPS

Digitized M1A7 flechette sabot ammunition target groups fired from supported rest using a standard issue Mosberg M-590 shotgun with 20 inch barrel. Targets used are standard U.S. military E-target sillouette, gross dimentions 48 In. x 48 In., range 20 Meters/21.87 Yds./65.61 Ft., aim point marked X. The M1A7 Flechette sabot ammunition outperforms all competing flechette and buckshot for shotguns in grouping, effective engagement range, and terminal performance.

 

[Aslan]

My understanding, is that flechettes, while making lots of very satisfactory holes, weren't very effective, other than for very specialized circumstances.

I heard (I have no first hand experience with flechettes) that they were useful in brush, but really weren't that effective as manstoppers.

00 buck was supposedly better.

I dunno for sure, only bring this up for discussion.

Further enlightenment would be appreciated.

:devil:

 

[mrostov]

This is what they had to say here:
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/003.html


FLECHETTE EFFECTIVENESS

Flechettes are fin stabilized projectiles manufactured from steel, and flechette ammunition is an assembly of 20 flechettes within a conventional cartridge case. Flechette projectiles have aerodynamic and terminal performance far above conventional buckshot. Interior setback forces have no effect on flechettes upon firing, allowing the projectile to maintain it's shape and ballistic coefficent from discharge to terminal impact. The absence of distortion during firing and flight allow predictable ballistic performance for velocity, grouping and terminal effect. Flechettes have superior terminal performance to a roughly spherical soft lead buckshot. The flechettes steel form maintains it's rigidity in flight and looses it's rigidity upon terminal impact. As the flechette travels through dense tissue and bone it will begin to bend along the unsupported shaft portion from residual inertia, traversing sideways or hooking through the remaining tissue along the axis of impact, imparting all remaining kinetic energy to the target. The flechettes inability to traverse some barrier materials, such as dense vegitation, due to the immediate distribution of kinetic energy is the only negative aspect to the flechette projectile, and this effect may be used to an advantage for selective targeting in certain environments.

COMBAT COMPARISON

During the United States Vietnam War of 1965-1972 shotguns played an active role with ground forces and buckshot and flechette ammunition were actively evaluated for combat effectiveness. Combat evaluations from May 1967 to February 1968 were made with flechettes, M162 00 buckshot, and XM257 #4 buckshot. Flechette ammunition indicated a high lethality at all ranges with several one shot kills at engagement ranges to 100 yards, flechettes were prefered by combatants equally to 00 buckshot during this test phase. Flechette ammunition and 00 buckshot were also equally prefered over the issued XM257 #4 buckshot, which proved ineffective under combat conditions, lacking the penitration and terminal performance of either flechettes or 00 buckshot. Adoption of a standardized flechette cartridge was hindered by the United States govenment decision to begin disengaging from the Vietnam War. Flechette superiority to buckshot has proven manifest for all aspects of performance in velocity, grouping, and terminal effects.

 

[Rich Z]

Hmm, I bought some 12 gauge flechette ammo a while back and wasn't much impressed with it. Maybe my expectations were too high, perhaps. I fired several rounds at plyboard sheets and most of the darts seemed barely capable if any penetration at all on the board. I mean like the most penetration was MAYBE 1/4 inch.

Recoil of the rounds was about on par with shooting a bird bomb, so maybe the brand I used was just not up to par.

Here's the Florida Stature concerning such things:

(2)(a) Any person who manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or delivers any armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet, or dragon's breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(b) Any person who possesses an armor-piercing bullet or exploding bullet with knowledge of its armor-piercing or exploding capabilities loaded in a handgun, or who possesses a dragon's breath shotgun shell, bolo shell, or flechette shell with knowledge of its capabilities loaded in a firearm, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

So as long as I have them in a gun and don't know their capabilities, or if I have the shells and know their capabilities but they are NOT in a firearm, I can have them

 

[mrostov]

Sounds like the powder charge was a tad light.

 

[andy]

believe that bs if u like, dummies.

Until shtf, dummy, the 11" barrel "wears" its flashhider, and the can stays where it is. Any 10 year kid could figure out THATmuch. The fletchette idea was ABANDONED by the military, cause what they found out was that the little needles, USUALLY do not tumble, they just poke a little hole, and they have VERY little energy.

Also, there's no .22 unit for the 12 ga, no concealment, the ammo is actually RARE, compared to .22 or 223 (other than the pretty worthless small birdshot). The fletchettes don't have even a FRACTION of the effective range of the 223, but then a twit who "thinks that a lousy extra 150 ft lbs makes a Makarov SO MUCH more effective than a .22lr wouldn't have a clue about such things, anyway. The fletchettes drift in the wind like a balloon, and drop with gravity like a rock.

 

[mrostov]

Re: believe that bs if u like, dummies.

Until shtf, dummy, the 11" barrel "wears" its flashhider, and the can stays where it is. Any 10 year kid could figure out THATmuch. The fletchette idea was ABANDONED by the military, cause what they found out was that the little needles, USUALLY do not tumble, they just poke a little hole, and they have VERY little energy.

Also, there's no .22 unit for the 12 ga, no concealment, the ammo is actually RARE, compared to .22 or 223 (other than the pretty worthless small birdshot). The fletchettes don't have even a FRACTION of the effective range of the 223, but then a twit who "thinks that a lousy extra 150 ft lbs makes a Makarov SO MUCH more effective than a .22lr wouldn't have a clue about such things, anyway. The fletchettes drift in the wind like a balloon, and drop with gravity like a rock.

The 12ga shotgun shell is the 2nd most common round in the world, and in N. America. There are few stores that sell 12ga shells that DON'T have some slugs or buckshot loads available.

The 11.5" CAR sucks as a GP rifle. So, you gonna walk around for who knows how long with an INFERIOR rifle that's the same length as an AR with a real rifle barrel?

Lots of places a person can't bring an AR at all. The gun has to be with you to be effective, not buried or hidden.

The Mak IS a much better mankiller than the .22LR, plain and simple. Some people, it seems, are just too dense to understand that ft/lbs is only one part of the equation. This is real life, not Dungeons and Dragons or some similar game where everyone operates simply off of hit points.

The military never abandoned flechettes. The same darts that you see in that 12ga shell is used in tank ammo. It's called a 'Beehive' and a 105mm Beehive has 9000 darts. There have been several tests with 12ga flechettes and SF units will sometimes use them. The military uses 12ga shotguns nowadays mostly for guarding, marine boarding parties, SF, and LEO uses, all very close range where buckshot works OK.

YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT:

The ballistics on the 11.5" Car-15 SUCKS for a general purpose rifle, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

A 12ga flechette has been proven in combat to have one shot kills within 100m, which is within the primary effective range of your 11.5" glorified pistol.

 

[John in AR]

...but then a twit who "thinks that a lousy extra 150 ft lbs makes a Makarov SO MUCH more effective than a .22lr...


I don't own a Mak, never fired a Mak, and never praised or recommended the Mak. But the .22 pistol has what... 80-100 or so ft/lbs of energy? So a "lousy extra 150 ft lbs" means it's 2.5 to 2.8 times more powerful, unless I'm missing something. The other way to say that is that the .22LR pistol has just 35% to 40% of the Mak's energy.

(We're discussing caliber here; not firing platforms, as all you mentioned was the effectiveness of the bullet.)

And a round that's 2 1/2 times as powerful, IS going to be "much more effective", given equally good bullet design and shot placement; both of which are the responsibility of the shooter, not the gun itself.

Man, give me 2 1/2 times the power in my CAR-15 or my my 9mm glock any day. May not 'need' it, but they WOULD then be "more effective" on targets. 3,000 ft/lbs from my CAR, and 1,000 from my 9mm...? Definitely "more effective" wouldn't you say?

 

[Hard Rock]

The military never abandoned the flechettes Tard. They keep 12 ga. stocked as well as 20mm, 40mm, 50mm, 60mm, 81mm, 90mm, 105mm, 120mm, and 155mm. That is not including air dropped ord. that uses flechettes.

Flechettes have their uses and can be very nasty indeed.

Mike

 

[Silverbullet]

!2 ga MilSpec 'Dart" warfare

These were and are used by the U. S. Military. Within the last several weeks, there have been non combatant bystanders KILLED from friendlies using the fletchette. This pretty much rules out the spin they are only going to cause a small hole and not be a manstopper.
As proof of this you may be able to google Afghanistan; Fletchettes outlawed by the U. S. Military in Afghanistan.
The Geneva Convention outlawed SHOTGUNS use in warfare years ago. But hey, why dont they just outlaw bullets...lol...or better yet, nuclear weapons?
So, with most myths about this load busted, you can go on to some other subjects of interest.

 

[.45 COLT]

So, with most myths about this load busted, you can go on to some other subjects of interest.

Which myth(s) are busted? Several of the threads here attempt to perpetuate a myth, that is, that Flechettes fired from a 12 Gauge are actually worth a damn.

DC

 

[DJetAce]

If you want to use a 12 guage, get it VANGed. As in Vang comp.

Then don't be shocked if it gets 12 inch buckshot groups at 25 yards.

Turns the shotgun into a 50 yard buckshot gun and still no accuracy loss with slugs;.

 

[neolithic hunter]

shotgun vs ar apples and oranges.