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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
20 yards, with any sort of a reasonable handgun, (Phoenix Arms, excepted) is absolute candy. We train at 3 to 25 yards routinely. Anyone who can't keep a full magazine, (or cylinder) in the kill zone on a Transtar II target 20 yards, needs some serious remedial training, or needs to find another line of work. I'm pretty confident at 50 yards with either my Glock 21 or my Taurus 9's. My fellow instructors and I, used to hit the old FBI targets at 100 yards with 2 1/2" Colt Detectives for the heck of it. You would have to range in, and hold about 18" high, but it made for pretty consistent hits. 20 yards? That's point blank as far as I'm concerned.
 
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There is no dishonor in not being able to hit at 20yds as long as you are willing to work until you can score at that range. Then of course you must work to extend that range. Even if it doesn't come easy, you must still extend yourself every time you practice. Worst thing you can do is decide that since you (GK) can't hit at 20yds, then nobody else must be able to.

RIKA
 

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yeah, while somebody is SHOOTING at you, moving, in the dark, with no earprotection, right, bser? You are fos.
 

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First gun I shot was a .45 (Ruger P-90), shot it at 25 yards (because I thought "everyone did") not one group was over 5 inches, 3 had rounds touching , two were 5-round cloverleaves, the third was a vertical string of six that were touching. That was from the first box of ammo from the first handgun, and the first target. The gun itself has proven to be able to cloverleaf at that range whenever the shooter is up to it.

It really isn't hard to hit at that range. You probably won't get 1" groups all the time, or maybe even not often (my Sp-101 is good for consistant 5" groups at that range), but you shouldn't have trouble hitting a realistic target at that range.
 
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andy said:
yeah, while somebody is SHOOTING at you, moving, in the dark, with no earprotection, right, bser? You are fos.
Andy, you have no concept of auditory exclusion or of total focus. If somebody is trying to kill me, my total being is concentrated on 2 things. 1) To stay alive and relatively unharmed. 2) To render my attacker(s) totally unable to do any more harm.

You see andy, though I have never been in combat I have been in as much deadly danger as a girl can be in. I survived and am stronger for it.

You are the one who is FOS and an embarrassment to manhood.

RIKA
 

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andy said:
yeah, while somebody is SHOOTING at you, moving, in the dark, with no earprotection, right, bser? You are fos.
Just how many times have you been shot at. You personally, you know - where you are the only individual being targeted?

Ear protection? How many times must we go down this same old road?

I've never worn hearing protection while hunting. Yet, somehow I manage to hit where I'm aiming. weird. Of course, the same is true of all the other people I hunt with...

then there's auditory exclusion. Documented, verified, end of discussion.

(and for the record, I have been shot at. I know a little about it, which is more than you do.)

:devil:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
andy said:
yeah, while somebody is SHOOTING at you, moving, in the dark, with no earprotection, right, bser? You are fos.
Let's lay things out here straight. You have a recoil aversion, hence your promoting low recoil calibers, .22LR, .223, 9MM, and you have a noise problem, alway's imsisting on "cans". You admit that long range shooting is beyond your capability, (20 yards is long range for a pistol??, 150 yards is long range for a rifle!!!!). I have been in firefights, and the noise and incoming fire did not stop me from returning fire. Hell, you don't shoot back, you die! We both know you have never, ever been in a gunfight, so stop talking like a Veteran.
 
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20 yards for me takes concentration to hit COM. A solid stance, nice exhale, gentle trigger squeeze and suprising ignition and I can do it consistantly. With a benchrest, I'm sure I could do even better.

Maybe I'm setting myself up, but I don't think if I had to draw and hit a real person at 20 yards, assuming I've already obtained cover, I'd be able to get the exhale, squeeze etc.

In reality, 20 yards IS long range for a self defense shooting, IMO. Might be a tough sell to the DA that you couldn't disengage. If someone starts busting out when you're that far away and you did nothing wrong to provoke, the only two things I can think of are mistaken identity and wrong place, wrong time (drive by, crossfire, etc.). Either way, it would be really tough to tell a threat at that distance until you see muzzleflash. Interested in other opinions...

cheers
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Krept, I have to take exception to this. 20 yards with any reasonable handgun, is NOT long range. My daughter, at 17, was getting torso hits with all of her shots, with a Taurus PT22 on a Transtar II target. This was NOT benchrested. I put her through an armed escort course all draw and timed fire. My son thought 25 yards was pretty ho-hum with his 9MM Berreta FS. For the heck of it, I took my Makarov out today and shot at a measured 20 yards from the draw, and put all eight rounds in the kill zone in less than two and half seconds, and I'm no Bill Hickock.
 

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krept said:
20 yards for me takes concentration to hit COM., 20 yards IS long range for a self defense shooting, IMO. Might be a tough sell to the DA that you couldn't disengage. If someone starts busting out when you're that far away and you did nothing wrong to provoke, the only two things I can think of are mistaken identity and wrong place, wrong time (drive by, crossfire, etc.). Either way, it would be really tough to tell a threat at that distance until you see muzzleflash. Interested in other opinions...

cheers

[yah!, me being the a$$hole I am, i'd tell the incident commander[on sene]
that "i wish the bastard had brought his brothers/cousins along as i have extra mags/ammo!]

thats,just me though! never 100%'COOL'


thanks.
 

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20 yards long range? We refer to anything where a person can get to hand to hand range, contact range. That range is usually about 35 yards. 20 yards is long range is you are a slug or can't shoot.

Mike
 

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guys, it's cool. Just being honest, maybe I suck or maybe you folks are underestimating yourselves.

I said 20 yards is long range in REFERENCE TO a self defense shooting. To me, contact range or HTH range, so to speak, is within 10 yards. Yes, I've played football, am into MMA, shoot at a range that has 5 yard increments. I know the distance.

I've hit COM at 100 yards before with my USP .45. Didn't hit 100%, but I hit. That was on paper, perfect weather, etc. Have hit plastic soda bottles @ 25 yards or so, again, no biggie.

To reiterate, when I say long range, I'm talking about making a justafiable shooting, as in you are in imminent danger of losing life or limb. At 20 yards, I don't think a non-projectile weapon is that much of a threat, heck, in most of the cop shootings I've seen, they yell their asses off for the perp to stop and drop even within that distance. Say the guy is at 50 yards and he is running full speed at you, so you open him up when he's at 20 yards. Umhmm... maybe justafiable, probably, but rare, I'd argue.

A gun vs. gun scenario, I can see being absolutely justafiable. But again, this would be like you getting into a shootout in a restaurant or whatever where the longest distance is 20 yards, etc. Drive by shooting, etc.

Please read carefully, what I'm saying is that 20 yards would be a LONG DISTANCE FOR A JUSTAFIABLE SHOOTING (i.e. CIVILIAN). Is it impossible? Nope. Unheard of? Of COURSE not. But my point is it is a long range and wouldn't be as easy to justify as say someone at half that distance.

For every example that you give me about legit shootings at that distance, i.e. NOT first shots fired out of anger, revenge, empty of preemption, etc. I bet there are many more that occur within 10 yards.

Anyways, I'm not so sure I'd be able to focus on the front sight, get the ideal squeeze, keep the weapon steady to put a bullet where I want within 5", etc. when my life is truly in danger against a moving, armed threat. If that's the case, and it's a hard shot, maybe that's "long range" relatively speaking.

Hey, again, I'll be the first to admit I may be fully ignorant about this, and am willing to listen with open ears and an open mind. I'm here to learn & improve.
 

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krept, they aint talking about a mover, they are talking about a gun armed man, and they are simply fos about how "steely nerved" they are, if being shot at. They are a bunch of lazy lames that couldn't even handle MATCH stress well enough to handle such a shot. :)
 

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andy- Can it, it's well known from people that knew you from back then that you're the one that can't handle match stress.

And to add something useful.- Start at a distance you are comfortable with and work your way out only AFTER you've mastered your pistol at that distance.
 

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andy, not sure how well I could hit a moving shooter either, not trying to set myself up for failure, just haven't really had the opportunity to try.

good point Todd. The other thing I wonder is if it's a better idea to start at the closer distance and work on tight groups, then move back or work on faster shots, then move back.

One thing I'd like to work on is one of those RC cars, weld a frame to it that has an aluminum pole attached, probably 3' high. Mount a target to the pole, have a bud steer the car back and forth from behind, trying to simulate a moving target. Don't know how much the target would be affected by wind resistance, how stable the car would be with a higher center of gravity, etc. Just trying to think of ideas at this point.

Of course, force on force with simunitions would be about as close to ideal as I could think.

cheers
 
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Krept, I second what Todd said. There's no shame in not being "great", whatever that means. But imo, there would be some shame (or at least embarrassment) in not being "a little bit closer to great" next year or next month.

Even if you start at 10 feet, get to the point where you can hit a small target (post-it note, playing card, saltine cracker, one guy I know uses penny lollipops, whatever) fast and consistent at that range. Then move to 12 feet, then 15 feet, etc. If six months from now, you can do at 20 feet what you can now do at 10 feet, it means you've doubled your skill level in just six months. If you can double it again in the next six months (just 40 feet), that means you've qaudrupled your skill in just a year.

No shame at all in that; that's impressive progress, which is all anyone can work for, and progress is what got mankind out of the caves.
 

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Krept, I get (I think we all get) the idea about legalities and "justifyable shootings" and all that.
But that's not what GoonKid is talking about, he thinks it's a PHYSICALLY difficult thing to do. He thinks ABILITY-WISE it's very difficult to do.
You've made an entirely different (and correct) point.

But see, GoonKid has very bad vision, and has proven himself to not be able to even handle match stress, much less real combat, that's why he makes such a deal out of match stress. He also thinks you can miss fast enough to win a gunfight, because it's possible to play the numbers in IPSC and "win" even with more misses than the next guy. His manual dexterity, and mental processes are lacking, proven by the fact that he shot himself practicing his quick draw. Good gun handling is not in his repetoir of abilities.
 
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yeah, while somebody is SHOOTING at you, moving, in the dark, with no earprotection, right, bser? You are fos.
Here is where you go off the rails. Under stress we fall back on our training. Shooting good groups at distance means we shoot better groups up close. If our accuracy is 4 times as bad under stress, then the better it starts off, the better it is under pressure.

have you never heard the expression “we fight like we train”? Do you even know what it means?

if your training is missing really fast, that’s exactly what you will do.

training at longer distance makes you a better shot at shorter distances. Longer shots highlight any mechanical defects in your techniques. Correcting them and training to keep them corrected makes it muscle memory. If you can group at 25 yds, how hard is it to put every round on target at 10 yds or less?

you seem to have a difficult time grasping basic training concept.
 

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"you seem to have a difficult time grasping basic training concept."

Grasping real life would be hard for him.
He claims to be a black belt, a martial artist - yet cannot grasp simple training concepts. Repetition and focus. Train, train some more, train again, and again....

he doesn't appear to have any focus, doesn't grasp concepts that should have been ingrained in him with his (supposed) martial arts training. He doesn't appear to be very truthful about a great many things.
 
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