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Discussion Starter #1
despite its blunt 45 gr bullet's having lost 300 of its original 2600 fps. It knocks them on their asses,with good chest hits, and they can RARELY get up again. The 356 tsw has 2200 fps, 55 grs, the Split Nose 3 segment advantage, and 2.5x the frontal area of the .22 bullet. It is a very mean load, considering it's 6 hit per second controlable, in a 19 oz, 6.3" long pocket pistol. It makes a .40 Kahr look pretty sick, especially the 180 gr version.
 

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In most states its actually a felony to knowingly shoot a dog out of hand.
I truly wish that I had proof you had ever ONCE shot a dog. I'd turn you in so fast you'd lose your yellow stripe right off your back. But I do doubt that you even have the guts to do ANY of the things you post about.

1911sr
 

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Discussion Starter #3
around, HERE,<font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>,people shoot dogs on sight, if they are in with livestock and have no collar visible. Lames like you are the ones who abandon them,don't control them in the first place.
 

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"Around there" people DON'T shoot dogs on sight, and you know it, YS.
We live in the mountaions and our dogs were never left to run free. Up here if a dog is running deer he CAN be shot, but the shooters never show a yellow stripe down their backs. You've never shot a dog. You know it....... we know it.

1911sr
 

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Gunkid is just bs'ing as usual. He is trying to defend his POS CAR dream rifle. And we all know the CAR is for losers.
 

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I absolutely love my Hornet. Hmmm, someone ... GB I think ... said either Rika or 1911sr was into these? Can't remember; old brain. Anyhoo ...

Mine's a Ruger 77/22 that I had rechambered in .22 K-Hornet. Why, Just for fun! :santa: It was an easy job - we just lopped the back thread off the barrel, and rechambered. That also cured the problem with those sloppy two-piece Ruger bolts. The little rifle likes heavier bullets - 40 grainers - over Lil Gun powder. It was a mess tryin' to get the rotary mag to work though. I finally had to take one completely apart, grab a mototool, and gut all unnecessary plastic from inside it to get it to feed properly. Now, I can only get 6 rounds in, but hey, it works. We also cut the barrel down to a bit under 20 inches. It is stainless, so we just bead blasted it matte.

It's a ball for deer. I've shot a few with it, all at less than 50 yards, and frankly where I shot them even a .22 LR would've done the job, but unlike the .22 LR, the Hornet is legal here. Shots have all been in the side of the head, between the eyes, or at the connection of skull and neck, broadside. None required much of a tracking job, I can tell you!

I have never shot a dog with it, but I have laid out a coyote and bobcat or two.

Regards,
Jon
 

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I like the Hornet but can't afford one right now since I have the 223 BA. As for shooting dogs, I don't have a problem with popping one thats running deer or is a clear danger to humans. GK claims that he kills dogs for scientific testing of his bullets but I think thats a lie. For any validity, he would have to perform a post mortem on the dog. Don't think he would stay around long enough to pick up the bleeding dogs body and put it in his van and carry it away because somebody might see him. I think that he is just a sick [email protected] who is scared sh!tless of dogs and kills them for the feeling of power.

My take.

RIKA
 

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DJetAce said:
...And we all know the CAR is for losers.

Hey, be nice. In my area, with my geography and my local game animals, the CAR-15 actually does make sense. (Mine's not the 10 or 11 inch "shorty", btw.)

Central Arkansas, never a shot past 200 yards, almost never a shot past 100; and I'm talking about deer hunting, not just defense. Our deer are of a size that I've never not been able to either just pick it up or at worst, drag it by the forelegs, up onto the trailer or truckbed. So the 5.56 is plenty for them if need be. I confess to not using the CAR for deer yet; I've been talking here recently about starting this year. But I hunt with a couple guys who still use .32-20 lever guns, and they're less than half as powerful than the .223; so there's no doubt in my mind that the .223 is sufficient for the task.

(Yes, I do have the "can" and .22 kit, but those are tools, not panaceas.)

Also, being a deputy sheriff, the CAR makes a great patrol carbine; small enough to ride up front with me at night.

The only defensive needs I have are short- to medium-range anti-personnel, and the CAR (with decent softpoint ammo) is plenty for that, and feral dog packs, and the .223 is plenty for dogs as well.

I'll openly concede that the CAR isn't the "only thing anyone needs", as some do. If you're in open country (Wyoming, etc), arctic or semi-arctic country (Canada, Alaska, etc), big-game country, (you get the point...), you will vrey likely need something "more" or even just "different". But here, you just don't shoot very far, or at anything very big.

I do own other calibers, including bolt-action .308's; and likewise concede that they can unquestionably do things the CAR can't. If I were hunting in open country, my 10FP with the Leupold is what I'd use. But in close-in brush country, it's as poor a choice as the CAR would be for Wyoming elk hunting.


But for defensive use (and post-shtf game-getting, if need be), in 'my' location and situation, the CAR is plenty to keep me alive if need be.


If there's some missing link in my logic, I'm always happy to learn from others; I've never claimed to be omniscient.

(Well, rarely claimed it, anyway... :cool: )
 

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John,

You have chosen the best weapon for the job that you demand and for your particular area of operations. I see no fault in your logic. Don't remember if you have a spare upper with longer barrel and the quick attach fitting added for the suppressor.

RIKA
 

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Discussion Starter #10
no, u don't need "more". u can benefit from a scope, free float tube, forend mounted bipod, an match ammo, maybe, but that's plenty, with a 16" barrel and good ammo, to reach 1/4 mile with. Only a <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font> is in open country in daylight, and no, night vision does NOT enable you to hit at greater ranges than that.
 

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No spare upper; do have the quick-attach mount for the suppressor. Goes on & off very positively, in three seconds or less. Only issue is heat when removing it. Either use a glove or rag, or wait for it to cool down. Those things get HOT with full-power loads. Owner's manual says semi-auto may hit 600 degrees; full-auto can hit 800. :flamethr:



Didn't think to mention; I do have a scope on it. A compact Leupold 1-4x 'shotgun' scope. One-power and slightly "heavier-than-normal" reticle, so it's VERY fast to pick up, yet crank-able to 4-power to 'reach out there' as far as the caliber allows, which is (IMO) quite a respectable distance. Compact enough to not be heavy or in the way, yet a Leupold, which means it's tough, reliable, bright, and clear. I'd recommend the compact Leupold for any battle-oriented carbine.

Yes, someone on the African plains would need 'more', due to the size of the game and the ranges involved; and if what I've heard about the AR's vulnerability to arctic conditions is true (can't vouch for that), then someone in Alaska or "Ice Station Zebra" would need something 'different', due to the environment.

It's not a religion, guy; it's a tool. An extremely effective tool, an extremely versatile tool, and frankly, my favorite tool; I've said that many times. But it's not a reason to get pissed about somebody owning a different tool.

Anyway... gotta meet my wife for dinner and give her the new earrings I bought her today. (Just felt like it.)

Have a good weekend.
 

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John in AR, Re; the CAR issue.

IIRC, the "shortys" are the only ones that are designated as CARs.
14.5" barrel would be and M4, 16" on up is just an AR with the A1-A3 designation. So I don't think DJetAce is calling you a loser. The 11" CAR is useful for CQB, room clearing, etc, and not much else.
 

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Magnum88C said:
John in AR, Re; the CAR issue.

IIRC, the "shortys" are the only ones that are designated as CARs.
14.5" barrel would be and M4, 16" on up is just an AR with the A1-A3 designation.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. I believe the 7-to-11.5 inch versions were originally the "Commando" designation, the 14.5 (with stepped barrel) was the M4, and the original CAR-15 (from the 1970's or 80's) was a 16 inch.



Magnum88C said:
...So I don't think DJetAce is calling you a loser.
That's ok; I'm not that sensitive. :wavey:



Magnum88C said:
The 11" CAR is useful for CQB, room clearing, etc, and not much else.
Agree there, with the caveat that I'd trust it out to 100, maybe 200 yards, if I get to pick the ammo. If stuck with milspec ball (especially >55-grain ball), the range of scenarios I'd trust it for would be vastly narrowed. In that short a barrel, I'd want a 55-grainer max; possibly a 50 or even 45-grain.

And with THAT short a barrel, I'd DEFINITELY want a suppressor. Short-barrel 5.56's have just a horrendous blast. I used to have an 11 1/2" Olympic; even with the 5.5" flash-hider on it, the blast was, well, horrendous.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
hadn't noticed the blast being horrendous, FLASH is, but blast is certainly no worse than an 18" 308's. Both are pretty bad,tho. CAR-15 is just an acronym for "carbine", <font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font><font color=red>*</font>, there's no barrel length really designated at all. 20" barreled guns are considered "carbines' by MANY, in other calibers.

Beyond 100m, you have LITTLE need of instant stops, and you CERTAINLY dont need such stops beyond 200m. The guy CAN'T hit you at such ranges, once he takes much of a hit at all, and only a fool like garnad would run right out to gloat over the "shootee". What do you CARE if he flops around for 30 seconds, before bleeding out, at 200+ m, hmm? compared to not HAVING a can, not being able to use .22lr ammo, the GI rifle rd, be able to CONCEAL the rifle, use it well one handed, etc.

Fact is,shtf, you will either be using QUIET .22's for over 90% of the shooting you NEED to do, or you won't be around long. noise will bring you LOTS of trouble.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
guys are fos about the "ranges needed". Big cats get within 10m of African game, EVERY DAY, and you can't get within 100m of ANY, once a month? :)

Hunting editor for American Handgunner wrote an article about a CRIPPLE (polio) who had a WALL FULL of skull and horn trophy mounts, he got with scoped XP100, CRAWLING to within range to shoot them in the top of the head, as they lowered their heads to feed,drink,etc. Neat .22 hole in the center of each skull mount. You guys really ARE lames. :)
 

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The guy who put me onto the smith who did my K-Hornet conversion has killed scads of deer with his K-Hornet, and all with chest shots. He chooses them carefully though, and with that being the case, I see no fault with it. He shoots them in the frontal chest when the deer is slightly turned so a heart shot directly between the shoulder and brisket is presented. The reaction, as he describe it, is as if the deer has been hit with a cattle prod - they come straight up off the ground, twisting, and then go down after only a few stumbling steps. His average for shots like this is around 35 yards.

He also uses Lil Gun powder, but his favorite bullet is a 33 grain Hornady he has stockpiled. The rest of us have to use the 35 grainers, since the 33s were some sort of limited run, or error, or something. Anyway, he has had excellent results for many years using this combination.

Regards,
Jon
 

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Discussion Starter #17
yep, with HALF of the power of the shorty 223, and NO fast second shot, and no advantage of the suppressor, either. Without the NOISE of a shot, animals aren't NEARLY as startled, dont run nearly as hard or as far. They "think" that a horsefly has bit them,or some other type of injury (that they have experience with) has occured. Many a bow hunter will tell you that oftentimes, the deer don't run at ALL with a broadhead hit to the chest, or they run only a very short distance, and again start feeding or drinking,until they bleed out and fall.
 

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Right. I have had plenty - in fact most - deer I've shot with a bow run 15-20 yards, and then stop and look around to see what's going on. Concerning the Hornet, I remember you and I discussing years ago the matter of shooting deer between the eyes, and you had mentioned that an elevated position is preferable when using comparatively low-powered rounds to reduce the chance that the bullet will just skip off rather than penetrating.

Regards,
Jon
 

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Discussion Starter #19
yep, if you can get within arrow range of a deer (usually done with a tree stand) you are certaily within range of braining him with a subsonic .22lr rd and a suppressed .22 rifle. Furthermore, you can use SNARES to catch SOME deer, and a LOT of dogs. Some dogs have a LOT of meat on them, ya know. BAIT will bring in deer(or dogs, or bears, or livestock) and a flashlight at night makes hitting them in the eyesocket fairly simple.
 

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I've said often, I believe the .223 is plenty for our deer around here.

Chances are I'll quite worrying about "this load vs. that load" before season starts and just use either the 55-grain ballistic tip or the cheap 55-grain sp remington, which are what I carry daily in the gun.

If I trust it enough for either a rabid dog or some meth-ed up scud, (which I do) I think I can trust it for Bambi. (After all, Bambi's a wimp...)
 
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