22 unit, fighting rifle, ccw pistol, not.22 rifle
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Why? A .22 rifle is a very useful and fun piece of equipment. What need do you have for a fighting rifle when out for a day or two of hunting, plinking and camping? Hell, you're not even talking SHTF here. When out hunting here, you can carry open, so there's no need to get leg cramps and chafing from carrying a pistol in the pocket, or trying to draw with a pack on from CCW.
And if this was a misplaced post meant for the SHTF forum, handicapping your primary rifle or hqandgun by turning it into a less reliable rimfire is a BAD idea.
And if this was a misplaced post meant for the SHTF forum, handicapping your primary rifle or hqandgun by turning it into a less reliable rimfire is a BAD idea.
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I have, and really like, a Ciener unit for my CAR-15.
That said, it's not meant in a defensive role; at least to me it isn't, except perhaps in some VERY special circumstance using subsonic .22LR's and suppressor, for bb-gun-type silence, but that would be extremely rare, I would expect. To me, the .22 unit serves as a trainer, plinker, and small-game getter. I use it a lot and like it a lot, and where I am, it's what I carry rather than a second longarm in .22lr.
One area the conversion unit really shines is in training value. I'm to the point with my CAR now that yesterday I was showing off to the 'hillbilly' wing of the family with the Ciener unit and suppressor.
One of my "regular" plinking spots is the from the pasture fence out to a laid-down 55-gallon drum, out at 160 yards or so. Using the top of a fence post for a rest, I can get off a second shot before the first one hits the barrel-end (24" or so diameter, spray-painted orange), and still hit with both shots. With subsonic ammo, you basically hear "click-click", "clang-clang". Before I had the .22 unit, I was fairly good with the gun, but now I've been able to become better, just due to much-increased use.
Again, this is using a fence-post as a brace. I can't do it that fast off-hand yet. Can still hit 10 of 10 at that distance, but not when I try to double-tap it like that. I almost always miss the second shot.
Key word is "yet"...
That said, it's not meant in a defensive role; at least to me it isn't, except perhaps in some VERY special circumstance using subsonic .22LR's and suppressor, for bb-gun-type silence, but that would be extremely rare, I would expect. To me, the .22 unit serves as a trainer, plinker, and small-game getter. I use it a lot and like it a lot, and where I am, it's what I carry rather than a second longarm in .22lr.
One area the conversion unit really shines is in training value. I'm to the point with my CAR now that yesterday I was showing off to the 'hillbilly' wing of the family with the Ciener unit and suppressor.
One of my "regular" plinking spots is the from the pasture fence out to a laid-down 55-gallon drum, out at 160 yards or so. Using the top of a fence post for a rest, I can get off a second shot before the first one hits the barrel-end (24" or so diameter, spray-painted orange), and still hit with both shots. With subsonic ammo, you basically hear "click-click", "clang-clang". Before I had the .22 unit, I was fairly good with the gun, but now I've been able to become better, just due to much-increased use.
Again, this is using a fence-post as a brace. I can't do it that fast off-hand yet. Can still hit 10 of 10 at that distance, but not when I try to double-tap it like that. I almost always miss the second shot.
Key word is "yet"...
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I have 22 units for both the AR15 and the full sized 1911. They are fun to play with and make great training tools. They, however, do NOT replace my separate 22 handgun and rifle. Could do fine if I were strapped for cash and just had the conv units but I'm not .. just yet. This isn't shtf and I thoroughly enjoy my firearms as much as I can. Sorry that you have to sneak around to shoot yours.
RIKA
RIKA
Unfortunately, the best methods of CCW carry are not that good for field use.
As for 'serious gun', a 10/22 is a serious weapon in skilled hands. It's also way more legal than a CAR-15 in many places. As for a 5.56mm weapon, a Mini-14 can be made to be just as good as an AR-15.
As for 'serious gun', a 10/22 is a serious weapon in skilled hands. It's also way more legal than a CAR-15 in many places. As for a 5.56mm weapon, a Mini-14 can be made to be just as good as an AR-15.
BFD. I've had the Colt .22 unit for my Colt 1911s for quite some time. Yeah it works. The Single six and 22/45 are more fun. The "unit will NOT be found in the gun should SHTF.223 fan said:
I can tell the people who've never been in a firefight by their insistance on gadetry, and complete lack of understanding of why reliability is the most important attribute of ANY of your kit.
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Agree completely about reliability; it's absolutely the most important factor when it's "for real".Magnum88C said:
For playing, plinking, critter-getting, and even training to some extent, I can accept a lower degree of reliability; but you're right about reliability being "the" issue when it comes to defensive weapons.
bs, power of the first shot, speed of hitting with the first shot, are MANY times likely to be of more import than MISSING with lots of feeble rds, or hitting with such, SLOWLY. The first rd fails to fire about 1 time in a million, FAR more often with DA revolvers than ANY other action type, ya know. I'd pick my same guns, if they failed to feed or eject one time in 50, over slower, less ccw'able, less powerful guns that failed only once in 10,000 rds. You aint going to FIRE 50 rds in any sort of fight, and live by anything but LUCK. You are going to MISS the vital zone MANY times for every time you hit it, and THAT doesn't worry you, so why worry about a gun that is "only" 99% reliable", hmm? YOU aint even 50 % reliable.
you are SLOW for the first hit, and for each subsequent hit, and THAT doesn't worry you, so why worry about the gun being "only" 99% reliable, hmm? I worried a LOT about not being fast enough, so I worked at it until NOBODY was faster. I worried about the lack of AP performance and power, and I fixed THAT, too. YOu are just a bunch of lame plinkers, that's all. \
Yeah, you can spend MORE than the price of a good AR and only have a lame assed Mini-14, but there's no reason to do so.
YOu are just a bunch of lame plinkers, that's all. \Yeah, you can spend MORE than the price of a good AR and only have a lame assed Mini-14, but there's no reason to do so.
Hey, I've got no problem with any of that, in case that's what you were thinking. It's just that some people who don't know much of anything, think that such gadgets are for when it's "for real". I prefer a dedicated rifle for plyaing, plinking and critter getting, but that's just a preference for "fun time" If you like your AR with the "unit" in for that, more power to ya.John in AR said:
****kid, for the record, you have no idea how fast anyone here is. It's be best for you to shut your mouth and have everyone think you a fool than to keep up this nonsense and keep proving it.
Hey, andy, are'nt you the one who brags about missing so much? How missing is better than hitting?
John, magnum, you are right. I see so many wannbees bring real cool pistol to matches and space guns to rifle matches and then they can't hit or their pet guns jam (or parts flat fall off.) I'll take a strait foward plain AR15 or mini-14 over some 11" CAR trash anyday.
What I do is when shooter come to matches I see how well worn (not abused, but worn) their weapons are and where the wear marks are! That tells me how good they are and how much practice they have. I then look at how they carry their gear. Both in methods of carry and how well they can stand lugging the stuff.
You don't need fancy gear. Just about any good 5.56 rifle or 7.62 will fill the bill. Same goes for a good pistol. Both have to be very hardy, very rugged, simple to maintain, and reliable as all get out. I sure wouldn't want some cut up POS Star 9mm junker that may or maynot work. Same goes for the 11" CAR with it's very poor balistics.
Wannabees spend their time on equipment and SHTF dreams and just about never come down to reality.
John, magnum, you are right. I see so many wannbees bring real cool pistol to matches and space guns to rifle matches and then they can't hit or their pet guns jam (or parts flat fall off.) I'll take a strait foward plain AR15 or mini-14 over some 11" CAR trash anyday.
What I do is when shooter come to matches I see how well worn (not abused, but worn) their weapons are and where the wear marks are! That tells me how good they are and how much practice they have. I then look at how they carry their gear. Both in methods of carry and how well they can stand lugging the stuff.
You don't need fancy gear. Just about any good 5.56 rifle or 7.62 will fill the bill. Same goes for a good pistol. Both have to be very hardy, very rugged, simple to maintain, and reliable as all get out. I sure wouldn't want some cut up POS Star 9mm junker that may or maynot work. Same goes for the 11" CAR with it's very poor balistics.
Wannabees spend their time on equipment and SHTF dreams and just about never come down to reality.
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Reliabilty, be it of your firearm, your ammunition or your skill is of top importance in any tactical situation. That is why you would not find me caught with my pants down, so to speak, with a .22 conversion unit in my primary defensive/offensive firearm. When it comes to something being unreliable, the .22LR round is one of the most infmaous there is for failure to fire.
Of course, conversion units have their places, such as for target shooting when a new shooter is trying to acclimate him/herself to a weapon, or for target or plinking when expense is a factor, or for hunting small game when you need to conserve the larger caliber ammo. These kits are fine, and I don't think anyone here really put them down.
I am not putting down a .22LR conversion kit, nor are most tothers. Yet, even if we did that would not mean we are not serious. I wonder if you are serious about how you tout the benefits of the conversion units. Again, I must point out that such a unit has no place in a tactical situation - NO PLACE not even in special covert ops. In covert ops you would carry a suppressed pistol or a suppressed rifle in .22LR caliber, BUT you would also carry you primary battlerifle (unless you were a fool) in its regular caliber. Then while you are doing your covert stuff, if you were found out, you could drop the .22 and go for the larger caliber primary weapon to cover your ass. The .22LR is nowhere near reliable enough to depend upon in a life or death firefight type of situation unless it is all you have. If you were to go into a hostile environment carrying only something in .22LR (without it being forced upon you by your situation) then you would be a fool and likely soon would be a dead fool before long.
Of course, conversion units have their places, such as for target shooting when a new shooter is trying to acclimate him/herself to a weapon, or for target or plinking when expense is a factor, or for hunting small game when you need to conserve the larger caliber ammo. These kits are fine, and I don't think anyone here really put them down.
You can always tell the non-serious survivalist minded shooters when they are unwilling to burn at least 2 to 3 cases of full power ammo through their primary weapon in break-in and practice.223 fan said:
I don't fully trust any CAR/AR-15 until I've shot at least 500 rounds through it.
Also, a .22 unit is good for some practice, but it has it's limits. For the level of practice that a .22 unit can give you, you're just about as good off with an AirSoft style replica weapon, if not better. You can do types of training with an AirSoft style replica weapon that you can't with a .22 unit.
The .22 unit's main use is for hunting. For REAL practice and weapons familiarity you HAVE to fire substantial amounts of full strength ammo.
G.I.'s in just about ever war learned you can't have a ton of guns or other weapons you have to take care of. They also leaned you pick a reliable weapon or two and that's it. Far better to really know those weapons than to sit there with all those do-dads. And as Garand said, you don't disable your main weapon to make it an inferior one.
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mrostov said:
I agree on both counts.
The 22 unit has helped me speed up some, mainly due to just shooting a lot more, and closer-in; snap shooting, as some would say. (Post-shtf, this may or may not be important, but now, it definitely is for me, as my CAR's primary "real" use is in clearing buildings, lots, etc; all short- to medium-range stuff.)
I've never used an AirSoft gun, but that's probably a very good idea. I've used Simunition guns numerous times, and airsoft probably offers the same benefits. Being able to actually "engage" others, etc.
May have to get some airsoft guns "for the kids" this Christmas... :dgrin:
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