and buddy, that is PLENTY hard enough to see to it that you dont do CRAP to anyone who is 450m away from you. You can flop around a bit, then you bleed out, and DIE, and that's ALL you do. 450 m, right 223 load still has the SAME 500 odd ft lbs of the 4" 357, using the much-ballyhooed 125 gr jhp. It has 1800 fps, so it still EXPANDS that 75 gr VMax sp, USING ALL of that 530 ft lbs in your chest. You are then a GONER, dude.