Firearm Forums - Arms Locker banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
well proven by 1000's of guys. The blunt nosed bullet's velocity falls off like a stone. It's only got 900 ft lbs at the muzzle, and no expansion in flesh, of course, so only 2/3rds of its power gets used in the man. At 100m, it's down to less than 700 ft, lbs, with no more than 500 ft lbs actually meaning anything. yet, that's the same power level as a 4" 357 will full charge ammo at 10 ft. So yeah, it's still a pretty good lick.

A 223 softpoint uses ALL of its power, until the velocity has dropped below 1800 fps. A 10" 223, using handloads developed for that length barrel, will start 60 gr sp's at 2500 fps.. Because it has a spitzer point, it still has 2000 fps left at 200m, which means it still has 530 ft lbs at that range. So it's hitting at 200m like the 30 C ball hits at 100m, ie, plenty hard enough. At the ranges where an instant stop matters, ie, 100m and less, the 10" 223 and softpoints, hits a LOT harder than 30c ball ever did. and you get all the advantages that come with using the GI rd, mags, parts, threaded barrel, chromed bore, scope, .22 unit, tracers, steel capped ball, modularity of the weapon, sightline above the silencer, trigger jobs, luminous sights, , many types and weights of bullet, etc.

For instance, for scoped use, I suggest the 69 gr smk bthp. (1 in 9" rifling twist) Such a bullet, with the scope in the carrying handle offering a significant change in the holdover requirement, using a 300 yd zero, makes this little rifle capable, at 400 yds, of holding on the high chest and hitting in the low gut. If you've mis-judged the range by 70 yds, due to bad light, steep mountains, etc, you'll still hit. If you can't tell 150 yds from 300 yds (and not use the iron sights and softpoints for the shorter range,, zeroed at 200 yds) i dunno what to tell ya.:)


Even at 500 yds, scoped, smk's, you can hold on the top of the guy's head and hit gut/thighs, often enough to "disrupt enemy activity", for sure. :) The pattern might be 2 ft wide at that point, with horizontal stringing due to a cross wind, but you'd definitely not want to be inside that 2 ft circle. Not that I think that the survivialist aint a fool for firing at such ranges. Ditto for being in open country in daylight.

Considering that the gun is smaller and lighter than an Uzi, the above is an amazing amount of range and effective power. No, the smk hp probably wont expand (beyond 200 yds) But there's no reason to care about it, either. At such ranges, after taking such a hit to the vitals or gut, he's not going to be able to hit you. After all, you do have brains enough to be in prone, right? preferably using cover? He's going to be bleeding out, crying for his mama and you aint dumb enough to run right out there to scalp him, right? Let him lay there for an hour, what's your rush?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,682 Posts
Something I was always curious about regarding the .30 Carbine: whether or not a redesign of the case and/or chamber (think Ackley Improved) would be feasible. And ,like the Ackley Improved 30/30, how much interchangeability between " original " and " Improved " could be retained.
I know about that necked down to .22 development of the Carbine...what I was thinking about was a way to run spitzers of the same(or greater)weight, as well as a more efficient use of the (comparatively limited) case volume.
I've always liked the Carbine for its handiness,but do agree that the caliber is more of a " relatively hot" pistol caliber than even an intermediate rifle caliber due to the straight walled case.
Any thoughts on a chamber cut and or case shoulder alteration?
Given the limited case,I'm aware of the limits;but this is more of a thought exploration balanced by the advances in propellant, metallurgy, case design and bullet design since the WW2 era.
Such an idea could be along the lines of a "7.62x25 stretched 8mm in length"... Just frying my brain this morning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,643 Posts
I owned an M1 Carbine back in the late '70's, long before I reloaded. It was an expensive firearm to shoot as cheap ball was not always available and what was cost. I have a close friend who currently uses his for 3 gun matches, he casts and reloads. Unfortunately he tells me that he looses 10-20% of the brass at each match, which is getting expensive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,210 Posts
I like and respect the M1 carbine more than a lot of people do. I don't personally envision a reason to use it at longer ranges, but with the vast assortment of bullet options available nowadays, I have little doubt that a load could be found/made that expands reliably down to 1000-1100 fps.

Never checked into it since I don't use mine for recreational or hunting purposes, but there are a LOT of good options nowadays as far as reloading-bullet selection. Personally, with the kind of use an M1 carbine would likely see, I'm ok with the winchester JHP and even a couple of the JSP loads.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
me, I don't count on things being "nice" once it's rifle time. :) The scalping thing is a reference to all the guys who 'think" it's so necessary to instantly slay the guy (beyond the ranges at which 223 sp's will do this). I've never given a flip what he does at such ranges. He's no longer a threat to me, once i've hit him. Guys "think" that shtf is gonna be some kind of Marines storming the beach bs. Me, I'm gonna remain undetected, never fire unless forced to do so (or severely tempted by something I see) :) And 90+ % of shooting better be done with silenced .22 unit and subsonics, from ambush first 1-2 brained and 2-3 more hit before they have a clue what to do about it, and be long gone, let them squeal for a few minutes, before their buddies shut them up and divide up their stuff.

If need the 223 at ALL (much less the 9mm) things have gone very wrong and you can't reasonably expect to survive that sort of crap, many times or many rds per occasion. Maybe taking the occasional deer (or cow) at 150 yds, braining a moose, bear or elk, one or 2 times, sniping some warlord who badly needs to go. but this idea that you're going to fire lots of noisy centerfire rds (and live to tell of it) is the bunk.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
the .30 case is straight walled, so I don't see how you'd "improve it", and i do'n't see the gun or the rd offering anything like enough more performance to be worth messing with. If you want more range, in a lw carbine, get a 223, that's all. With it will come the many, many advantages of the AR.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,210 Posts
...If you want more range, in a lw carbine, get a 223, that's all. With it will come the many, many advantages of the AR.
Agree. More range, lower ammo cost, more ammo options, plenty of advantages nowadays.

I got lucky & stocked up on .30 carbine stuff "way back when", with $159 guns and $10.99/50 ammunition. :) Unfortunately those days are long gone and they don't offer much real advantage any more.


the .30 case is straight walled, so I don't see how you'd "improve it", and i do'n't see the gun or the rd offering anything like enough more performance to be worth messing with.
It looks like a straight-wall case, but it's actually kind of an odd one. From the rim, it tapers down slightly like a 9mm for an inch or so, and then for the last quarter-inch (or a little more) it's straight-walled out to the case mouth. Kind of a reversed and less-drastic version of the old .22 Jet almost; or a little like the 8mm Lebel.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
the 30 carbs are no longer enough, or any, cheaper than AR's, and no reason to give up the AR-223/22lr advantages. The 30C handles VERY differently than an AR, so training with one is messing you up for the other. So why do so? no reason. So you happen to own one, so what? That's not a reason to choose it or favor it. you might still have the 410 single shot you had at age 13, too. No reason to believe it amounts to anything, either.

the suppressed 223 AR can do anything that the 30 carb can do and a LOT more besides. So there's no reason to bother with owning the 30C. It's a nice plinker, but that's about it. The .22 unit in the AR is a great plinker, too, at 1/3rd the cost for ammo, has a lot more uses, too. Since the AR can, very well, handle many things that the 30c cannot, the higher cost (silencer and all) of the AR is well justified (if you make your own silencer, that is). A lot of the 30c's these days run $200 MORE than some of the AR's. For something that's quite inferior, (real use wise) that's crazy. Same thing with a clunker GI 1911 bringing twice as much as a properly set up Filipino-made modern 1911. you're nuts if you choose the old clunk, without all the improvements of the modern gun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,210 Posts
...the 30 carbs are no longer enough, or any, cheaper than AR's, and no reason to give up the AR-223/22lr advantages…

...So you happen to own one, so what? That's not a reason to choose it or favor it. you might still have the 410 single shot you had at age 13, too. No reason to believe it amounts to anything, either.

…the suppressed 223 AR can do anything that the 30 carb can do and a LOT more besides…

…Since the AR can, very well, handle many things that the 30c cannot, the higher cost (silencer and all) of the AR is well justified…

...For something that's quite inferior, (real use wise) that's crazy...
“Holy blind hostility, Batman…”

I was agreeing with you, which you'd know if you’d bother to actually read before snapping like an insecure adolescent…

You said: ...If you want more range, in a lw carbine, get a 223, that's all. With it will come the many, many advantages of the AR.

At which point I quoted you and said: Agree. More range, lower ammo cost, more ammo options, plenty of advantages nowadays. I got lucky & stocked up on .30 carbine stuff "way back when", with $159 guns and $10.99/50 ammunition. Unfortunately those days are long gone...

So you say that the AR is a better choice than the .30 carbine nowadays, and I agree and say that yes, the AR is a better choice than the .30 carbine nowadays. You see the words ".30 carbine" in my post and naturally get hostile about it.

Wish it were surprising, but not really.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,643 Posts
unbelievable
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
not at all. there's never been hostility, just pointing out the facts. insecure people have their dicks wrapped up in their gear choices, and can't handle any critique of it at all. Since you're all on ignore, I have no idea what you say, other than the titles. Don't care, either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,643 Posts
you of all people would know about "insecure people have their dicks wrapped up in their gear choices" with your AR and cans!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,210 Posts
not at all. there's never been hostility...
A dictionary can be your friend. Hostility at its base definition is 'absence of friendliness or generosity'. So yes, pretty much perennial hostility; almost regardless of topic.

insecure people have their dicks wrapped up in their gear choices, and can't handle any critique of it at all.
Please point out one instance — in any thread — where you responded to a critique of the short AR platform without hostility. Even one.


Since you're all on ignore, I have no idea what you say, other than the titles...
This manages to be simultaneously hilarious and sad, John.

Think slowly… This makes post #15 in this thread, and no posts other than yours HAVE titles.

So, are you lying or genuinely confused?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,643 Posts
For those who are not completely wrapped up in our gear choices, those that embrace the reality of politicians that are trying to or have banned AR's, we search for options.

 
  • Like
Reactions: BigEd

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,544 Posts
not at all. there's never been hostility, just pointing out the facts. insecure people have their dicks wrapped up in their gear choices, and can't handle any critique of it at all. Since you're all on ignore, I have no idea what you say, other than the titles. Don't care, either.
This is a great post on so many levels!

the related post feature is great!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,210 Posts
Since you're all on ignore, I have no idea what you say, other than the titles. Don't care, either.
This manages to be simultaneously hilarious and sad, John.

Think slowly… This makes post #15 in this thread, and no posts other than yours HAVE titles.

So, are you lying or genuinely confused?
Five years ago now, and still struck me as funny. Start a discussion, posting in that discussion five times including replying to specifics in other members' posts, and then when you get cornered by your own logic disconnect, you blatantly lie and say that you can't see our posts anyway. The posts that you replied to. With specifics.

13946
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,544 Posts
Five years ago now, and still struck me as funny. Start a discussion, posting in that discussion five times including replying to specifics in other members' posts, and then when you get cornered by your own logic disconnect, you blatantly lie and say that you can't see our posts anyway. The posts that you replied to. With specifics.

View attachment 13946
like a small kid covering his ears so he can claim he can't hear you....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,643 Posts
Melvin has lived with his fantasy for so long, that anyone contradicting it with something obscure as actual facts must be put down with any and all possible means. For those of us that live in the real world, well........
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top