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Discussion Starter #1
and the swc-hp of the Split Nose has a considerably greater salutory effect than does the .30C ball's rd nose. The 2300 fps if the .460 Rowland Split Nose is a bigger increase above the 30C's 1900 fps than the 30C is above a decent 9mm load in a Carbine barrel, too. The 90 gr plus P Cor Bon 9mm jhp load is 1700 fps in a carbine barrel. Anyway you look at it, the .460 Split Nose prefrag is a LOT more improvement upon .30 Carbine ball ballistics than the 30C ball is above 9mm ball ballistics (in a carbine barrel). The smg 9mm stuff is 115 grs at 1450-1500 fps in a carbine, and .30C ball is just ball, in that it wastes at least half of its power on overpenetration.

So those who claim that you can't have REAL power in a controlable ccw pistol just dont what they are talking about . That's especially true if you count a 5" 1911 as being a "ccw pistol". I don't, but it can easily get 80 grs to 2300 fps, and it's readily controlable, too.
 

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apples to oranges. When is the last time you fired a .460 Rowland?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
hardball wants to claim that the .30 cal bullet has "something" going for it that the 223 bullet doesn't (at the same 1900 fps) Well, it might, but it aint MUCH, and the 223 sp is a lot more likely to expand, and carries that expansion level velocity to a lot more range than can the .30 C. load the 30c with a sp, and it will not have enough velocity left to expand worth a hoot beyond 50m. A handgun sort of jacket on a hp might still expand in a 30C, at 100 yds, but who makes such a jhp? More importantly, who's got such ammo in their 30c, hmm? Such sp's and hp's can be READILY had for the shorty 223,and the 223 is our GI rd, and .22 units, luminous sights, trigger jobs, etc, can be readily had for it. They can't for the 30c. So the .30C is a dead issue, and has been so for 40 years now. Wakeup and smell the coffee, old man.
 

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and the swc-hp of the Split Nose has a considerably greater salutory effect than does the .30C ball's rd nose.
salutory? What language are you typing in?

Now salutary is an english word and if that's what you wanted to use you'd best check your word of the day toilet paper because you aren't using it correctly.

salutary
Favorable to health

Your split nose fantasy round is more favorable to health than the 30c? Who'd of thunk that?
:laugh01:
:nyah:
 

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So when is the last time you shot a .460 Rowland?
 

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regardless, at least in my opinion, CCW is all about compromises to begin with. It's a weapon that's with you because you aren't in ideal cave-defender situations. Ammo wise, how much money would it take for me to both have faith in the 460 and practice with it enough to get lethal-good?

On the same token, .45 ACP HP or 9mm +P HP (and anything in between) will do a pretty good number to slow someone down that's been hit COM. Threat-wise, how does the nut on the receiving end know you've loaded an uberspicy prefrag or lazy ball when they're staring down the muzzle of an WTFISINHISHAND?!? weapon?

Reality. Compromise. I just can't get into the exotic ammo stuff. Now I'm NOT saying your wrong, perhaps showing my hand early saying I can't afford to go that route this early but... I feel pretty damn comfortable knowing that I can hit with the stuff I load, that it works in my weapon and...chances are... anyone receiving even one will probably have the worst day of their life, and maybe their last.

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Most here can't hit with any real speed, REGARDLESS of what load they use, and at realistic ranges,(ie, under 10 ft, accuracy is not the issue, speed and power are the issues.

I know that the Net is full of bs about how u just "gotta" practice with what you carry, but that's what it is, bs. How many times I gotta say this? Recoil is momentum's opposite,not the opposite of the ENERGY. 70 grs at 2300 fps is like 230 grs at 700 fps, except for the 10 more grs of powder necessary to get the speed. So it's like 230 grs at 800 fps, which is .45 ball. Practice with .45 ball.Sure the POI is 3-4" diff at 10m, so what? you won't be GROUPING 8" at 10m, when someone is shooting at you. Also, you can and should be practicing with another gun entirely, not the ccw gun, so that the wear and fouling are not being loaded onto your life and death gun.

At 10 ft, with properly developed skills, you can't do a thing with a .22 unit that you can't match with a steel framed .45, (using ball ammo) or an alloy framed 9mm, when it comes to lead on target, against the timer.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
$1200 in a current gun and spare mags,,with littlepractice, no luminous sights and not much power, or $450 in a gun, spare barrel, mags, $100 in night sights for it, $250 in 100 rds, testfire 50 for function check, and have 50 for duty, and $300 for a .22 unit, spare mag, and have some REAL POWER. and ability. If fire another 100 rds of the same bullet, loaded to the same OAL cartridge, made of same material, just not hp's or slit nosed, for $100, how are you "out" anything, hmm? Then there's the $500 that's in the other gun, for either an alloy 9mm to practice with, or a Dillon Square Deal progressive loader and lots of components.
 

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Your fantasy guns are getting boring.
 

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Theoretically, I don't know why it wouldn't work, at least I haven't heard anyone give good reasons that it's BS.

my p(momentum)=mv it would seem that you'd have the same felt recoil as shooting a 230gr 700FPS as you would a one pound (7000gr) bullet 15MPH (23FPS)? Sounds crazy. I think that acceleration would have something to do with that as well, however, because mass being technically "the resistance to change in motion" i.e. the bbl would have to unlock at a different rate for reliable operation.

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #11
why would you 'think" that, hmm? U "think" 60 gr mag safes, in a 5" 9x25 Dillion, at 2400 fps, make the 1911 work so "differently". :) I got news, such performance is WELL within the working parameters of the gun.

There no fantasy about it, old man, unlike your bs claims of having seen so MANY guys shot with handguns, in Korea. :)

A big, deep hollowbase, and pure tin alloy change lots of things about the bore friction, gas seal, etc, as compared to normal jacketed autopistol ammo.

I"ve read that 5" 9x25 Dillons get 90gr jhp's up over 2000 fps, guys. The 460 Rowland has a lot more powder capacity in the case than does the 9x25 dillon. Also, the larger diameter .45 bullet has a lot more surface area against which the powder gaes can push, and 70 grs is 22% lighter than 90 grs. The big, hollowbase gains you a lot of reduced bore friction, a lot of space for the powder gases, and a lot better seal to keep the gases pushing. The lighter, slicker bullet gets moving a lot faster-easier, and that helps keep the chamber pressures usable, and the 460 is rated at 35,000 CUP anyway.


I aint here to entertain you, old man.
 

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"At 10 ft, with properly developed skills, you can't do a thing with a .22 unit that you can't match with a steel framed .45, (using ball ammo) or an alloy framed 9mm, when it comes to lead on target, against the timer."

As counter intuitive as that sounds, it's actually true to a point. The cumulative effects of recoil do have an adverse effect on my shooting in the long haul, say the entire course of an IDPA or an IPSC match. But on the first few shots at CQB distances, there is not much difference between my gamer guns and a real gun.

About a year ago I was thinking of dropping back to a 9mm for carry because of tendonitis and arthritis. I figured the 9 would be faster. For kicks, I took my 5 inch 1911 Baer, my Kimber CDP Pro, and my CZ 75B to the range along with an assortment of loads. I took a 155 PF steel load, some white box ball, and Federal 230 Self Defense ammo for testing in the .45 pistols and some white box and HrydaShocks for the 9mm. The set up was pretty unscientific. I placed a target at 5 yards in front of me, and a second target at 7 yards about 10 feet to the right of the first target. The drill was to simply draw and shoot two rounds COM on each target. I also shot several Mozambique Drills with each gun. The shooting was not done from concealment. There was no appreciable difference between my gamer loads in the Baer and the whomp-em-stomp-em loads in the light weight commander sized Kimber. Furthermore, there was no appreciable difference between the .45 pistols and the 9mm. The Mozambigue Drills all ran right around a 1.38 - 1.5 seconds and the drills on the two targets ran around 1.6 seconds. As a result, I decided to continue packing the lightweight commander with Federal 230 Hydra Shocks.
 

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Ankeny,

I have a question for ya... you mention dropping back to 9mm due to arthritis and such. What difficulties have you had with the problem and shooting?

Is it a physical issue of gripping the gun and controlling recoil or purely a pain problem?

Thanks,

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #14
yep, and 7 yds is twice as far as the 10 ft range I am talking about, and the lw compact is considerably harder to use well than is the full sized govt model. Once you CAN use it well, of course, right up to the limits of human ability, you can't use the GM any better, at such close ranges. As fast as you can pull the trigger is as fast as you can pull the trigger, period.

It's like saying it's twice as hard to run downcourt while driblling a basketball as just running. Well, that's true, but PLENTY of guys get downcourt, while dribbling, a LOT faster than many guys can just run that far. :)
 
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