[andy]

9x19 is an amazing little rd, also, and that Mag Safe load aint even plus P, either. Straightwalled cases DO get more performance than bottlenecks, if they are loaded optimally.

 

[polesmoker]

Why lug around a rifle, to fire a pistol rd?
dumber than a rock. Obviously not serious about anything, so why not just use the pistol? If SERIOUS, wth you doing with a pistol rd in that longarm?

:laugh01::nyah:

 

[brass hammer]

ha! ha! ha!

poor,......poor.....poor......ol' gunkid STEPS ON HIS DICK ONCE AGAIN!


WITH HIS 2" TALL LEGS

 

[John in AR]

...9x19 is an amazing little rd...

Glad you agree. :dgrin:

52 @ 2300 is roughly 620 ft/lbs, from a carbine barrel.

A 127 +P+ gives 1250-1300 fps (they claim 1300, but let's be conservative) from a 4" barrel. Assuming going to a carbine barrel gives a 25% increase in velocity, that'd be what, something like 1600 fps, probably? If so, that'd be around 700-750 ft/lbs. A lighter-weight +P+ (or even just +P..?)could be even better.

Granted, these are assumptions, but the difference in my 4" L-frame and 16" carbine .357's show an increase of slightly more than that, but there's the cylinder-gap issue with the revolver to factor in.

I'm not going to run out & buy a 9mm carbine, but especially for a city dweller, it could be a VERY good close-quarters carbine, especially if care was given to load choice. A carbine that uses the same mags as your pistol, using 30-32 round magazines, could serve quite well.

 

[Garand]

John in AR, I'm just curious as to which .357 Carbine that you have? I, myself have a Browning B92 in .357. Its not great on pin point accuracy like my Marlin M1894S but if I'm shooting at a 12" diameter target at 100 yds, there is no problem. I love the Winchester M92 action that its based on, very quick to cycle the action.

I remember reading an article on the riots in California a few years back, the only firearm 1 gentleman had in his home was a lever gun in a pistol caliber. He said that his neighbours were very happy as he was the only one in the area with a firearm. In todays "politically correct" climate, the anti's generally don't complain about a lever too much. Doesn't matter what firearm that you choose really, what does matter is your ability with the firearm that you choose.

 

[John in AR]

Mine's a Rossi 92SRC. Blued, 16" barrel, normal lever. Same 1892 design platform, which I prefer to both the 1894 and the Marlin designs. I like it so much, a few years ago, I bought one for my father-in-law for Christmas; his is the short-barrel .44 mag, with the large "Trapper" lever. (He's a huge John Wayne fan.)

Back seven or eight years ago, I borrowed a chrono and did some tests with mine, alongside my 4" smith 681. I knew the carbine barrel and closed breech would increase velocity, but didn't realize how much. Don't recall the load data off hand, but I tested some of my own .38spl and .357 loads out of both. What just flat shocked me was that a normal .38 spl 158-grain swc from the carbine was faster (and therefore more powerful) than my 158-grain .357 magnum load was out of the handgun. Don't recall the numbers, but that stuck with me; one of those "hmmm" things, since a .357 handgun is commonly accepted as ok for our size deer, but .38's in a lever gun would be reflexively laughed out of deer camp. Go figure.

Using rifle powder (AA #7, iirc), it'll push 125-grain bullets over 2,000 fps, and even 140-grain bullets to right at 2,000. To be fair, you do get somewhat flattened primers at those levels, but nothing major enough to noticeably shorten case life for reloading.

I've had some lively go-rounds on-line when pointing out the pistol-caliber lever-action's capabilities: (Isn't that right, JD...? ) The gun itself is smaller than any other shoulder gun I own, including my .22LR's. Using .38 spl loads, you get 8+1 capacity, greater-than-357 (handgun) power, and literally almost zero blast or recoil.

If you got the gun with a normal 20" barrel, these advantages would be even greater. Even more velocity, even less recoil and blast, greater magazine capacity, etc.

With a tube mag, you can top off the magazine anytime, without dropping the ammo that's in it. There are no "loose" pieces to keep track of (magazines, etc). No question it's slower than an auto, but a lever's preferable (imo) than any other action type. I've short-stroked a pump gun; never have a levergun. It's accurate enough for any defensive or hunting needs out to over 100 yards; a Marlin would be good for even farther out.

To carry one step further, consider a lever gun in .454 Casull. SAAMI chamber pressure max on this caliber is 63,000 cup, same as the .300 win mag. Factory loads from a revolver can get a 240-grain bullet to 2,000 fps from this caliber. (Hornady 240 XTP-Mag). Let's assume a sealed-breech action and an extra foot of barrel only increase that by 20%, which is probably conservative. That'd be 2,400 fps; or 3,068 ft/lbs of energy, enough for anything up to elk. But say you don't have elk in your area, and don't want or need that much power. OK, drop down to the lower .454 loads, which give 1,600 or so, which give 1600-1700 ft/lbs in a handgun; say 2,400 in a rifle. Or the CorBon "+P" .45 Colt load, which gives around 600 ft/lbs in a handgun; figure 800 or so in the rifle. On & on, all the way down to the .45LC "Cowboy" loads, that give 300 or so in a handgun and 400-500 in a rifle. And those are just factory loads. If you reload, you can have literally ANY power level you want in between.

In the one gun, with no conversion kits, no chamber adaptors, no different magazines, no aftermarket or add-on parts at all, you've got a gun with anywhere from 300 to 3,000 ft/lbs of energy; think about that. One gun, you could use for anything from rabbit to elk. If Rossi's .454 lever gun had existed at the time, I'd have bought my father-in-law that, rather then the .44 magnum. The .454 would be much more versatile, plus it's available in stainless steel.

In all honesty, if someone made a box-magazine-fed, semi-auto carbine in .454 (not likely, with a rimmed cartridge), my CAR-15 wouldn't be carried nearly as much, at least off-duty; and my M1 carbines might never get used again. [/blasphemy=off] :duck:

 

[andy]

The 9mm won't see that much increase in a carbine, 200 fps, tops, because it's already loaded with a much faster burning powder than is the 357. So you are talking 1500 fps with that 127 gr 630 ft lbs.

 

[DJetAce]

Still didn't answer the contridiction gunkid. Stepping on your dick must be something you really enjoy. Being past 50, that might be the only enjoyment you get.

If you guys want a 9mm carbine that really rocks, try to get Ruger to make their .40 carbine in .357 Sig. Then counterbore the barrel back from 16 inches to 12. Let the 4 inches be the flash hider. I bet you can get the 125gr JHP .357 Sig bullet out past 1800 that way. That would turn the Ruger carbine into a M1 Carbine!

 

[Magnum88C]

.357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 Linebaugh.

All available in revolvers/carbines.
All make excellent combos.
All draw very little attention (Been hassled by game wardens hunting with a FAL, did have the required 5 round magazines, but NEVER with a lever gun. In fact they usually ask to hold it and gawk/talk for a good while about that "neat old cowboy gun") NOONE around here questions a levergun, of any caliber, carried in a vehicle. Sheep tend to not be very offended by a revolver, but are by a semiauto.
All handle very well.

 

[brass hammer]

that was a real good posting, JOHN A.R


thank you, i enjoyed it.

 

[Wylycoyte]

A 127 +P+ gives 1250-1300 fps (they claim 1300, but let's be conservative) from a 4" barrel. Assuming going to a carbine barrel gives a 25% increase in velocity, that'd be what, something like 1600 fps, probably? If so, that'd be around 700-750 ft/lbs. A lighter-weight +P+ (or even just +P..?)could be even better.

One thing that you'd need to watch is to make sure that you stayed within a the hollowpoint bullet's "sweet spot". Modern hollowpoints are designed to expand optimally inside a certain velocity range. Outside of the range, on either side, expansion suffers or does not occur. excessive velocity can also lead to fragmenting, which can do pretty gruesome damage but frequently lack sufficient penetration to ensure that vital structures get perforated.

 

[andy]

That's what the maker's CLAIM, but it's mostly bs, cause they are chicken to load the ammo hot enough to be worth a crap.

 

[Terry G]

That's interesting. Hydra-Shok's and Golden Sabre's aren't loaded hot enough? Mag-Safes are chancy ammunition. In a warm climate or indoors, I think they would be very effective. But in a cold climate, where people are bundling up, the Mag-Safes open up on outer clothing and don't give the penetration needed to end the fight. Don't forget your purpose is to stop your opponent, not have him hurt and shooting at you from the floor.

 

[gripper]

Earlier in the thread,Andy-you mentioned the relative efficiency of straight walled pistol cases&slow burning,large(for saami standard)powder charges.What has always been of interest to me would be the bottleneck pistol cxases,whether we were using a civvy-carbine version of the Sudayev or ppsh-41,or something more modern,i.e .357sig,.400corbon,9X25dillon-you get the idea.This than bounces off of the CCUs for the 1911A1&the glock.Anyone know if there are carbine barrels available for any of the step-down bottlenecks I mentioned?I was wonderin"... :bird:

 

[Wylycoyte]

That's what the maker's CLAIM, but it's mostly bs, cause they are chicken to load the ammo hot enough to be worth a crap.

Yeah, all the extensive testing that's been done with ballistic gelatin to confirm this is all smoke and mirrors. The fact that numerous people have done it independently and have had the same results is just indicative of a Grand Conspiracy.

 

[andy]

jello aint flesh, dumbass.It aint even really very close,in fact. It's supposed to simulate hog MUSCLE, very little muscle on or in the chest, and bone hits change things, too.

 

[Wylycoyte]

I know that, dumbass. Post some pictures of real world results like Fackler, DiFabio and all the rest have (and their results all coincide, btw) and you might come off like less of a crank. Until then, feel free to wrap your head up in that mylar blankie and keep breathing your own fumes.

 

[andy]

WHAT pics have THEY posted? Bs claims of when the bullets HAPPENED to work. Anybody can shoot some animals, like I did, and find out that what I say is correct. Most jhp's don't expand worth a crap in flesh, and it's VERY rare to have one frag, at pistol velocities. I've only seen ONE time that even a good sized dog didn't show an exit wound. That was a shoulder bone hit, with 85 gr Silvertip, loaded to 1650 fps in a 9x19 Browning.

 

[Wylycoyte]

WHAT pics have THEY posted?

They're all over the net. You should know, since I recall hearing that you got booted off DiFabio's forum.

Bs claims of when the bullets HAPPENED to work.

I can say the same about your ravings. Just run some good tests and prove your case with pics and quantifiable data.

Anybody can shoot some animals, like I did, and find out that what I say is correct. Most jhp's don't expand worth a crap in flesh, and it's VERY rare to have one frag, at pistol velocities.

Of course they don't fragment. They're designed not to so as to enhance penetration. That's why they sell BONDED JHP. Some bullet types did fragment, which lead to pretty large wound cavities but decreased penetration, which was deemed undesireable. Over and over again, all the testing indicates that 12"-14" is the magic number needed to insure that a good torso hit will produce results even if there is an arm or intervening hand in the way. The testing seems to completely dovetail with reports from lethal force encounters on the street, too. Since you're the one disagreeing with the body of accumulated knowledge, this puts the burden of proof on you. I'm sure you'll respond with insults and yet another tirade, but that's just the way things work.

Besides...if you provide enough proof with well-designed tests, you might win your case. Then when you call us all dumbasses, it'll actually carry some weight. Right now, it's just more hot air and poorly-written ranting.

 

[Piemaster]

WHAT pics have THEY posted? Bs claims of when the bullets HAPPENED to work. Anybody can shoot some animals, like I did, and find out that what I say is correct. Most jhp's don't expand worth a crap in flesh, and it's VERY rare to have one frag, at pistol velocities. I've only seen ONE time that even a good sized dog didn't show an exit wound. That was a shoulder bone hit, with 85 gr Silvertip, loaded to 1650 fps in a 9x19 Browning.

That's right all of the reviewed work that Fackler et al have done and have published results for doesn't match up to the undocumented and unproven CLAIMS of Andy the great internet commando.