7.62MM, .308 Rifles

Terry G · Jul 24, 2004

Andy, John, Prophet, or whatever your calling yourself today, have you forgotten the M-14 or M-21 Sniper system? As a RECRUIT I was knocking down three quarter- man size targets at 400 Meters 7 out of ten shot's. The M-21 Sniper system, 7.62MM,/.308 was killing small men at 800 Meters. The M-60 Machine gun, 7.62MM, can effectively engage man size targets at 1,000 Meters. The .308 is a LOT more effective than YOU think. The Car-15 11.5 inch barrel is a joke past 200 Meters. The 16" Barrel is effective to about 300 Meters. The M-16A2, 20" barrel can stretch that out to about 370 Meters, no more. You, Sir, have either got rocks in your head or don't know the first thing about small arms.

Aslan · Jul 24, 2004

you'll get some non-sense about needing to engage a target at theat range, or that handloads make up for the short barrel. (of course that negates the argument about using GI ammo - doesn't it?)

Or how, since it is impossible to hit anyone at long range because they are doing the shimy shimy ko ko pop (dodge and weave - which can be mathematically shown to be a poor choice compared to balls to the wall from cover to cover)

Besides, without the can, you can't hit squat with a .308 - the noise and the recoil will make you miss (perhaps someone is a recoil pansy?)

The reply will be pretty much a standard one that he likes to use that will either make no sense or just be flat out wrong.

:devil:

mrostov · Jul 24, 2004

I've never seen an 11.5" AR barrel that was any accurate the way an AR should be, and everyone I've known that has used one has stated similar.

Many moons ago I asked a weapons designer for a major firearms manufacturing firm I was an acquaintance with and he stated that the bullet is effected severely by the fireball, often up to 3ft past the end of the muzzle. The bigger the fireball of burning propellant past the end of the rifling, the more the flight of the bullet would be effected.

This would explain several things, such as why the most accurate loads are not the hottest, and it would also explain why no one seems to ever get any long range accuracy from a hot varmint cartridge like the .223 when fired out of an 11.5" glorified pistol barrel.

This would also indicate that GK's attempts to make up for lost of velocity by loading the round even hotter makes the accuracy situation even worse.

TODD 3465 · Jul 25, 2004

A friend has a registerd shorty and if I can get with him and a chrono I'll test some common loads in it. I can't remember whether or not it's the 11" or 10" one though.

Magnum88C · Jul 25, 2004

mrostov said:
This would also indicate that GK's attempts to make up for lost of velocity by loading the round even hotter makes the accuracy situation even worse.

And also be a reason he always sets up his rifle drills at pistol ranges, and claims 10" groups at such ranges are "good enough"

andy · Jul 26, 2004

Look, dumbass,if that WAS true, then the 10" XP100, in 221 fireball COULDN'T be 1 moa, but SOME of them ARE .5 MOA. So you are fos, as usual. Since you are so SURE that the 11" CAR is worthless beyond 200m, why don't you let me take that ONE shot at you, at 300m, with it, and then I will stand there and let you fire back all you CAN? Come ON, hot shot, put it on the LINE. That sp MIGHT not open up in your chest, you MIGHT be able to get LUCKY with a shot, before you bleed out..

NOISY rifles are for dumbasses like you. Ditto non-concealable rifles,ditto rifles without the .22lr OPTION, for training or subsonic foraging.

I never made any claims for 223 that REQUIRE match ammo, *****. thats for ignorant jerks like YOU to do with 308. The ranges I consider to be practical, 223 ball can get the hits. It's just a bit on the poor side for effectiveness, not accuracy-deficient.

What ABOUT the M14, *****? You GOT chopper to haul you in and out, buddies to help you, specific "mission' once shtf? No, you dont, so you are lugging around a stupidly heavy rifle, for no reason at all. The military guys favor it because they are too lazy, inept, chicken****, and in too much of a hurry to get CLOSER, and they lack a suppressor. I dont have those deficiencies. You do, so I understand the appeal of the big pos to you..

TODD 3465 · Jul 26, 2004

Oh gee he's on his fantasy land tirade again.

I'll just let his BS speak for itself. ~>;-)

mrostov · Jul 26, 2004

FACT: 11.5" CAR barrels suck for both accuracy and performance. Everyone who's ever shot one knows this.

FACT: Overloading the round does NOT make up for poor performance.

FACT: You consider it adequate because you consider 50m to be long range and is about all the distance you are skilled at shooting at. You treat everything like a pistol, so you turned your rifle into a glorified pistol.

Aslan · Jul 26, 2004

Come on, everybody knows that if you use a .308, you have to have air support, but the mere fact that you have a .223 means you don't.

Actually, I beleive air support, arty support, armor support, etc. Are all components that make the use of .223 viable for general combat situations. This is all part of the doctrine that allows the .223 to be highly effective. It's a great round from a decent weapon (ie proper barrel length), but we're are starting to see that in situations like the middle east, where you can't simply call in arty or an air strike, the round is not cutting it 100% of the time. This is why the push for the 6.8, and why you see a lot of .308's in the field.

The whole we won't have air support / resupply applies to you as well GK. You just can't understand your own argument.

:devil:

andy · Jul 26, 2004

stand there, LET me fire ONE shot at you, 300m, with it,then.

you're fos about what I've said about ranges, and what's more, you KNOW you are being intellectually dishonest.

Just because YOU've seen ONE lousy parts kit 11" barrel does NOT mean all such guns are pos's, *****.

Without resupply, *****, you HAVE to go with lighter,more compact gun and ammo, and AVOID trouble, by using thick cover, and darkness, a suppressed rifle, etc. Dont KID yourself "thinking' that dumbasses like you have thought of TEN percent of what I've thought of, shtf, survival, or guns,or shooting,or hunting.

andy · Jul 26, 2004

bozo who doesn't even know enough to have a speed lever and ducktail grip safety on a 1911 better go back to kindergarten, start over.

Aslan · Jul 26, 2004

andy said:
bozo who doesn't even know enough to have a speed lever and ducktail grip safety on a 1911 better go back to kindergarten, start over.

Name calling again? You might want to say who this is directed at and help us all out. You tend to call everyone bozo. (are you afraid of clowns or something?)

But since it is name calling, does this count as one of your knowledgeable gun posts?

I mean what's the point of this post, other than it is silly and childish?

:devil:

Aslan · Jul 26, 2004

andy said:
stand there, LET me fire ONE shot at you, 300m, with it,then. you're fos about what I've said about ranges, and what's more, you KNOW you are being intellectually dishonest.

Just because YOU've seen ONE lousy parts kit 11" barrel does NOT mean all such guns are pos's, *****.

Without resupply, *****, you HAVE to go with lighter,more compact gun and ammo, and AVOID trouble, by using thick cover, and darkness, a suppressed rifle, etc. Dont KID yourself "thinking' that dumbasses like you have thought of TEN percent of what I've thought of, shtf, survival, or guns,or shooting,or hunting.

More Drama Queen rantings.

Full of insults, non-sequitors, and self admiration.

It would be different if you could actually participate in debate. No need to be rude, just discuss different points of view.

You tend to contradict yourself in your posts. For example, here you talk about avoiding trouble. Great advice, I agree 100% that avoiding trouble should be a priority. I just don't know how you promote such here, but have hundreds or maybe even thousands of posts talking about ambushes, killing sentries, blowing up liquid fueled rockets, transformers, etc. etc. All of these actions are SEEKING TROUBLE, not avoiding it.

You claim to have thought of so many things, and maybe you have, you just haven't figured out which are the good ideas and which ones aren't.

But you're unwilling to have any discussions on such.

:devil:

mrostov · Jul 26, 2004

GK thinks that you HAVE to have an oversized safety lever and an oversized grip safety on an M1911 or it just doesn't work at all.

It's the gimmicks=skill philosophy.

The levers and grip safety on my M1911 are just fine. They work well, they don't snag, and with my thigh holster I'm easily as fast if not way faster than some aging fart with his pimp style pants pocket holster.

Thigh holster GK, remember those? They are the ones that actually work with a backpack.

Garand · May 13, 2021

Shooting a match with a 1914 Colt Commercial Model in .45 acp, on 09 April 2017, 100 years to the day after that pistol went "Over the Top" at Vimy Ridge on the Western Front. Please note no oversized levers or oversized grip safety. By the way, the gun functioned flawlessly throughout the match.

John in AR · May 13, 2021

Garand said:
...100 years to the day after that pistol went "Over the Top" at Vimy Ridge on the Western Front.

Doesn't matter. They used 45acp hardball ammo, and 45acp hardball isn't adequate to stop a woodchuck or housecat. I learned that on this very forum.

7.62MM, .308 Rifles

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