a pocket auto can hit like 22 Hornet rifle

3027 Views 12 Replies 4 Participants Last post by CAV, Oct 3, 2003

Discussion Starter · Sep 30, 2003

At the 50-75m that a Hornet is typically used, the 650 ft lbs of muzzle-energy is down to more like 550 ft lbs. yet it still does a fine job on feral dogs. Any 9x19 luger pistol can be readily rechambered to 356 TSW, and can then drive a 55 gr bullet to 2200 fps, in a 3" barrel. That is almost 600 ft lbs. The 16 oz, 6" long Kahr PM 9 pistol easily fits in a front pants pocket rig, and hits about 3x as hard as do plus P 158 gr lhp's from a 2" .38 special. The lhp's dont expand in flesh at a paltry 800 fps, ya see. So the bullet exits with over 50 of the 250 ft lbs that it hit the target with.

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Rich Z

· #2 · Sep 30, 2003

I once read an article about a neat round called the .224 BOZ. Sorry, but I don't remember the details, but it was (I think) a 10mm case necked down to .224. Made somewhere in Europe, there were no plans to import the guns shooting this caliber into the USA. I would like to have something like that myself.

One other of my "gee I wannas" is a handgun (small enough to be carried) that would shoot the equivalent of a .50AE short. Just a 325 grain .50 caliber bullet being pushed at around 850 fps.

Yeah it would still be a handful.....

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Discussion Starter · #3 · Sep 30, 2003

it'd fly out of your hand, since it would

have about twice the recoil of a .45 acp. In anything remotely pocketable, 38 snub recoil is all that's controlable, and even THAT takes a lot of work. Most shots in combat miss the target entirely, and most hits are poor ones. Multiple attackers are common, too. So having lots of recoil is not where it's at. What you are talking about is a mere 500 ft lbs, and no expansion of the bullet at such a low velocity. So it's actually quite inferior to the 55 gr, 2200 fps load, which CAN be had, right now.

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Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 30, 2003

the boz was 55 grs at 2100 fps, in a

SIX inch barrel. I can beat that perfomance by a country mile. In a 6" barrel, the 460 Rowland will get a 100 gr bullet going 2100 fps.

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Rich Z

· #5 · Sep 30, 2003

A handgun is made in this caliber?

Not one of those single shot bolt action jobs, but a revolver or semi-auto?

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Rich Z

· #6 · Sep 30, 2003

it'd fly out of your hand, since it would have about twice the recoil of a .45 acp.

I doubt it. I have an AMT in .50AE that does not fly out of my hand when I shoot it. Even though my hands are small and the gun is BIG, I can still hang onto it. Not the most comfortable experience in the world shooting it, but it's still in my hand afterwards....

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Discussion Starter · #7 · Sep 30, 2003

yeahl, but it aint small and lw enough

to carry, either, and you did specify that in your post. regardless of whether or not you can hang on to it, if you can't get splits of .35 second or faster, on the chest, at 6 ft, with just one hand, it's a poor choice for defense, and .20 second is a LOT more like it.

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Rich Z

· #8 · Sep 30, 2003

Heck, if I can get one good shot with a 325 grain .50 diameter bullet into the chest of the bad guy, and he is still coming at me, I would use the TV Superman defense (throw the gun at the guy :laugh: ) and then run like hell!

So maybe a BIG HEAVY gun would be best to carry. Just in case..

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Discussion Starter · #9 · Sep 30, 2003

that's a BIG"if". Most shots in combat

miss the enemy completely. Most hits are poor hits. Multiple attackers are common place. being slow for repeat hits is a REAL bad idea, in view of these facts. Guys move, you have to evade blows, duck incoming bullets, get hit, debris hits your face, the light will be bad, your ears will be blown out, your eyes will be dazzled by the muzzleflashes. All this means POOR accuracy, especially at the VERY great speeds that you will need. I can have hand in pocket, LET you draw first (concealed belt rig)MISS you twice (at 5m)n and STILL kill you before you can reliably hit me in the chest. (ie, ..85. second)

If you have a timer, your reaction time is probably .25 second. Try reacting, drawing from concealment, and getting a chest hit, at 5m, 5 try average, in 1.10 second. only a few score men in the world can do this.

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jamullins

· #10 · Oct 2, 2003

have you considered what you are talking about? velocity to a certain degree is useful, but not the whole equation. A 100 gr. .460 cal bullet will probably tumble before it gets to the bad guy. A .355 cal slug going 2200 fps out a 3 inch barrel is pretty hot, about sixty joules of free recoil, about 30% more recoil than a full weight .45 govn't. madel, felt over a shorter time of recoil.
A back-up is just that, if you carry a .50 AE for back-up then you are toting a brick in your pocket. As for combat shooting, at ranges of 7 yards or less most assailant can attack you before you can actually get a back-up drawn under stress. As for splits, well, if combat was actually as mechanical as IPSC shooting then we wouldn't be having this talk would we.

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Discussion Starter · #11 · Oct 2, 2003

baloney. I have shot nice groups with

both loads. Joules are a measure of electricity, IIRC. So what's that got to do with recoil, hmm? Recoil is momentum. Momentum is simply mass x velocity. PART of any increased powder charge wt has to be considered to be part of the "ejecta", tho when calculating recoil. So a 100 gr bullet at 2000 fps DOES have a bit more recoil than does 200 grs at 1000 fps, but it's very little more. It takes 7.;5 grs of powder to get the 200 to 1000 fps in the .45 ACP, it takes 12 grs of powder to get the 100 gr to 2000 fps. So in effect, the 100 gr at 2000n fps recoils like 200 grs at 1020 fps. Big deal.

Just because YOU dont happen to know anything about something doesn't mean that it isn't perfectly feasible, you know. Ever heard of THV Arcane ammo? That was a 60 gr .45 ACP, made of brass, very short bullet, with a big hollowbase. It was 2200 fps. Their 45 gr 9mm was 2300 fps, both in 5" barrels. Do a search for RBCD ammo, then look at their LEO "tactical" .45 load. 80 grs, 2300 fps. Come out of the 18 th Century guys. You are about 100 years behind the times.

The 100 gr bullet is made of nearly pure tin. It is cast from a Lee 155 gr mold. Typical combat ranges for civilian defense is 6 ft or less. Even if the bullet DID tumble in flight, it would still be a helluva smack at impact.

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Aslan

· #12 · Oct 3, 2003

Joules are a measure of energy, so are ergs, newtons, ft lbs, etc.

And recoil is affected by many things.

And felt recoil may be totally different from actual recoil.

You don't have a clue.

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CAV

· #13 · Oct 3, 2003

Hey Einstein...

Momentum is simply mass x velocity

E=mc2 is a measure of energy, not momentum. The equation in which energy is put equal to mass, multiplied by the square of the velocity of light, shows that very small amounts of mass may be converted into a very large amount of energy and vice versa.

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