A smithing Issue I guess......
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As a general rule (Based on the experience of most shooters) 250-300 rounds is the minimum amount to use for a function and reliability test. Personally I like to run, at least, 500 rounds through a gun before I'm comfortable with carrying it. A caveat is to be sure to use FACTORY AMMO during all function testing. The brands to use, of late, seem to be Speer, Winchester, Remington, and - for a GLOCK - CCI Blazer.
I know the parent company is the same as two of the brands mentioned above; but, some scary things have been reported about Federal ammunition, lately; and I, for one, have been staying away from the Federal stuff.
If price is an issue, Sellier & Bellot and Wolf are acceptable to use; and, personally speaking, I've been impressed with recent purchases of, both, Fiocchi and PMC pistol ammunition. 'Wally-World' has their Winchester, 'white-box' ammo specials. This stuff shoots reliably, and isn't too dirty; but, by the time you're finished, you'll be left with the overall impression that you haven't been shooting high class ammo! (You'll be right, too.)
I recently completed a 400 round qualification course using Fiocchi 45acp hardball. Not a hiccup, and very clean. For your information I use the big three: Speer, 'Gold Dot', Remington, 'Golden Sabre', and Winchester, 'Silvertips' in my carry guns. I wish that Winchester, 'Black Talons' were still available; I can't see any good reason, 'Why' this excellent combat ammunition was pulled from the shelves. (More stupid mass-media hysteria, I think!)
The important point to make, here, is to be sure to, 'wring the gun out' before you start to carry it. Good for you to have asked this question!
As a general rule (Based on the experience of most shooters) 250-300 rounds is the minimum amount to use for a function and reliability test. Personally I like to run, at least, 500 rounds through a gun before I'm comfortable with carrying it. A caveat is to be sure to use FACTORY AMMO during all function testing. The brands to use, of late, seem to be Speer, Winchester, Remington, and - for a GLOCK - CCI Blazer. I know the parent company is the same as two of the brands mentioned above; but, some scary things have been reported about Federal ammunition, lately; and I, for one, have been staying away from the Federal stuff.
If price is an issue, Sellier & Bellot and Wolf are acceptable to use; and, personally speaking, I've been impressed with recent purchases of, both, Fiocchi and PMC pistol ammunition. 'Wally-World' has their Winchester, 'white-box' ammo specials. This stuff shoots reliably, and isn't too dirty; but, by the time you're finished, you'll be left with the overall impression that you haven't been shooting high class ammo! (You'll be right, too.)
I recently completed a 400 round qualification course using Fiocchi 45acp hardball. Not a hiccup, and very clean. For your information I use the big three: Speer, 'Gold Dot', Remington, 'Golden Sabre', and Winchester, 'Silvertips' in my carry guns. I wish that Winchester, 'Black Talons' were still available; I can't see any good reason, 'Why' this excellent combat ammunition was pulled from the shelves. (More stupid mass-media hysteria, I think!)
The important point to make, here, is to be sure to, 'wring the gun out' before you start to carry it. Good for you to have asked this question!
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4,814 Posts
I assume this is applying to semi-autos, but let's throw this in for discussion anyway. Does a revolver need to be put through the same hoops in order to be deemed OK? I don't think there is much of anything that needs to be broken in. As long as you know where the bullets you use are going to impact the target based on your sight picture, I doubt anything is going to change between the fifth shot and the 500th shot.
Of course, anything can break. I always wonder after I get done cleaning a semi-auto and putting it together if I should go out and test fire it to make sure I put it together properly...
Of course, anything can break. I always wonder after I get done cleaning a semi-auto and putting it together if I should go out and test fire it to make sure I put it together properly...
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187 Posts
Wring Them ALL Out!
Yup, good point; and one that is, often, overlooked! Lots of things can go wrong with a revolver. Here are some of the problems I've encountered over the years: The forcing cone might be out of spec. causing accuracy to suffer and chamber pressures to be eractic. The cone/cylinder gap can be, either, too tight or too large; in the former instance, this will cause lead shavings and binding to occur; and, in the latter, there will be too much flash and spatter. The cylinders themselves can be bored off-center; and the accuracy of the revolver will be poor. Sometimes a new revolver will cycle out-of-time, and really downgrade the gun's performance.
Revolvers are not as foolproof as many of us (myself included) often believe them to be. I've, also, had pins on new revolvers work loose after, only, fifty rounds - or so. (A real nuisance to repair!) There are, also, unexpected things that go wrong; things you don't usually anticipate, like a pair of stocks that are too loose and, no matter how much you tighten them up, are never going to fit that revolver correctly or allow a shooter's grip to remain constant.
Some of the things I do before buying a new revolver include: Holding the gun up to the light to examine the cylinder gap; for a quick check, a business card should fit tightly into this space. Cycle the cylinder all the way around. Don't, just, look to see if the, 'hand' is catching the cylinder notches squarely; but, also, try to see if the chambers, themselves, are centered on the bore axis without excessive mechanical, 'slop'. Check out the crane assembly; (It should be tight.) and push on the ejector rod to make certain that it presses smoothly and the extractor, 'star' is snug and fits in and out properly.
Lastly check out the grips; it's not as big a deal today as it was when everything was made of wood; but try to wiggle them (it) to see if they (it) move(s); and, while you're at it, check out the fit and feel in your hand. (One of the first things I do with a new revolver is to install a nice wooden Hogue Monogrip - very comfortable, sharp looking, and, 'orthopedic'!)
All in all I'm a great believer in the use of revolvers. A revolver IS more reliable than any semi-automatic, ever, could be. Revolvers make great backup guns, too. IMO, they are ideal for many women to, both, carry and use; and (now that I'm starting to get older) they are, also, a lot easier for occasionally arthritic hands to manipulate and fire.
Yup, good point; and one that is, often, overlooked! Lots of things can go wrong with a revolver. Here are some of the problems I've encountered over the years: The forcing cone might be out of spec. causing accuracy to suffer and chamber pressures to be eractic. The cone/cylinder gap can be, either, too tight or too large; in the former instance, this will cause lead shavings and binding to occur; and, in the latter, there will be too much flash and spatter. The cylinders themselves can be bored off-center; and the accuracy of the revolver will be poor. Sometimes a new revolver will cycle out-of-time, and really downgrade the gun's performance.
Revolvers are not as foolproof as many of us (myself included) often believe them to be. I've, also, had pins on new revolvers work loose after, only, fifty rounds - or so. (A real nuisance to repair!) There are, also, unexpected things that go wrong; things you don't usually anticipate, like a pair of stocks that are too loose and, no matter how much you tighten them up, are never going to fit that revolver correctly or allow a shooter's grip to remain constant.
Some of the things I do before buying a new revolver include: Holding the gun up to the light to examine the cylinder gap; for a quick check, a business card should fit tightly into this space. Cycle the cylinder all the way around. Don't, just, look to see if the, 'hand' is catching the cylinder notches squarely; but, also, try to see if the chambers, themselves, are centered on the bore axis without excessive mechanical, 'slop'. Check out the crane assembly; (It should be tight.) and push on the ejector rod to make certain that it presses smoothly and the extractor, 'star' is snug and fits in and out properly.
Lastly check out the grips; it's not as big a deal today as it was when everything was made of wood; but try to wiggle them (it) to see if they (it) move(s); and, while you're at it, check out the fit and feel in your hand. (One of the first things I do with a new revolver is to install a nice wooden Hogue Monogrip - very comfortable, sharp looking, and, 'orthopedic'!)
All in all I'm a great believer in the use of revolvers. A revolver IS more reliable than any semi-automatic, ever, could be. Revolvers make great backup guns, too. IMO, they are ideal for many women to, both, carry and use; and (now that I'm starting to get older) they are, also, a lot easier for occasionally arthritic hands to manipulate and fire.
G
Guest
·revolvers are basically a joke for combat
anyway. I'd say a brand new revolver might need 100 rds of breakin shooting, by a knowledgeble guy, before any potential problems come to light, and then about 20 rds of whatever "carry" ammo is chosen.
A good, new autoloader, you will know what's what in 200 rounds of practice ammo, , if you know your stuff, if your carry load has the same OAL and the same feeding (nose profile as does the practice ammo. Then 50 rds of the carry ammo being fired, and 50 rds more, for duty, out of the same "lot" of manufacturing, and you are good to go.
Remember, its the SHOOTER who's the weak link, nearly always, not the gun, and most certainly not the ammo. Few guys are alert enough to get the gun out and "on" the attacker in time, even fewer can get good hits, fast enough.
It's the FIRST shot that's the most important, by far, and the autoloader almost never fails to fire the round that's in the chamber. 90+% of attackers will NOT make you actually hit them with a bullet, if you get the gun "on" them fast enough to let them see it, in TIME for them to stop, and if you look determined and ready to shoot them into the ground. One GOOD hit to the chest, with any decent load, stops at least half of the 10% who are desperate-stupid-dopy enough to make you shoot them. So 95+% of the time, the ammo, or the second shot, mean very little to nothing.
anyway. I'd say a brand new revolver might need 100 rds of breakin shooting, by a knowledgeble guy, before any potential problems come to light, and then about 20 rds of whatever "carry" ammo is chosen.
A good, new autoloader, you will know what's what in 200 rounds of practice ammo, , if you know your stuff, if your carry load has the same OAL and the same feeding (nose profile as does the practice ammo. Then 50 rds of the carry ammo being fired, and 50 rds more, for duty, out of the same "lot" of manufacturing, and you are good to go.
Remember, its the SHOOTER who's the weak link, nearly always, not the gun, and most certainly not the ammo. Few guys are alert enough to get the gun out and "on" the attacker in time, even fewer can get good hits, fast enough.
It's the FIRST shot that's the most important, by far, and the autoloader almost never fails to fire the round that's in the chamber. 90+% of attackers will NOT make you actually hit them with a bullet, if you get the gun "on" them fast enough to let them see it, in TIME for them to stop, and if you look determined and ready to shoot them into the ground. One GOOD hit to the chest, with any decent load, stops at least half of the 10% who are desperate-stupid-dopy enough to make you shoot them. So 95+% of the time, the ammo, or the second shot, mean very little to nothing.
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So,Unregistered,if the 2nd shot usually doesn't matter why are revolvers a joke?I mean revolvers "almost never fail to fire the round thats"under the hammer too.If the brain behind the gun is ready(& this I certainly AM NOT going to argue against )then what difference does action type make?If you are comfortable with a wheelgun then why make yourself uncomfortable by carrying an auto?
I would think that ultimately you should carry what you are comfortable shooting & shoot it a lot!:beer:
)then what difference does action type make?If you are comfortable with a wheelgun then why make yourself uncomfortable by carrying an auto?I would think that ultimately you should carry what you are comfortable shooting & shoot it a lot!:beer:
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4,814 Posts
Depends on the kind of auto, I guess. Any that have a safety mechanism introduce one more thing that can go wrong. Either mechanical failure or simply by having it on safety and you didn't remember in the heat of the moment.
I have some semi autos that have never failed at all. And I have some revolvers that HAVE failed. Nothing is perfect. But all in all, I would have to say that the revolver is more foolproof when the chips are down.
If I carry an auto, it will be one that will fire double action, just like a revolver. I am assuming that time will be of the essence, so taking time to rack a round into the chamber is an unacceptable amount of time wasted before I can pull the trigger.
Taking time to disengage a safety is also an unacceptable delay in getting down to business. One second is plenty of time to get killed in.
I have some semi autos that have never failed at all. And I have some revolvers that HAVE failed. Nothing is perfect. But all in all, I would have to say that the revolver is more foolproof when the chips are down.
If I carry an auto, it will be one that will fire double action, just like a revolver. I am assuming that time will be of the essence, so taking time to rack a round into the chamber is an unacceptable amount of time wasted before I can pull the trigger.
Taking time to disengage a safety is also an unacceptable delay in getting down to business. One second is plenty of time to get killed in.
G
Guest
·u should spare the carry gun, and mostly
practice with a spare gun, which is very similar to the carry gun. The fouling and wear are thus mostly imposed on a gun that doesn't matter. The revolver doesn't HAVE round under the hammer, until you rotate the cylinder, and DA misfires are FAR more common than SA misfires. The DA trigger pull is a VERY real handicap at hitting swiftly. That's why there's no DA shotguns, rifles, or target handguns.
practice with a spare gun, which is very similar to the carry gun. The fouling and wear are thus mostly imposed on a gun that doesn't matter. The revolver doesn't HAVE round under the hammer, until you rotate the cylinder, and DA misfires are FAR more common than SA misfires. The DA trigger pull is a VERY real handicap at hitting swiftly. That's why there's no DA shotguns, rifles, or target handguns.
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126 Posts
Revolvers vs. autoloaders aka- pistols?
My shooting partner is a retired MSP Detective, and for years their carry weapon was the S&W .38 revolver. Two things in favor of that weapon, or any reliable revolver- One- any opponent facing you can see the bullet tips in the cylinder (Two) a revolver's springs are not under tension until the piece is cocked- for single action shooting, or fired as in double action shooting. I will guess than many of the folks today who prefer to carry pistol, such as the variations on the .45Colt or others, may have had military experience and are used to such a weapon. Just a guess..
My shooting partner is a retired MSP Detective, and for years their carry weapon was the S&W .38 revolver. Two things in favor of that weapon, or any reliable revolver- One- any opponent facing you can see the bullet tips in the cylinder (Two) a revolver's springs are not under tension until the piece is cocked- for single action shooting, or fired as in double action shooting. I will guess than many of the folks today who prefer to carry pistol, such as the variations on the .45Colt or others, may have had military experience and are used to such a weapon. Just a guess..
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Great information! (One of the reasons I like this site so much).
One more thing to add - I don't know where I learned this, but I have six carry mags for each of my carry autos. I use three, and then when it's time for me to set my clocks forward or backward each spring and fall, I unload those mags and switch to the other three. I also buy new mag springs every two years - new springs for both sets - and then before I swap into the other set of mags, I replace the springs and then test fire to assure proper function before carrying with 'em. Mentioning that because it also relates to function checking before carry.
Best,
Jon
P.S. - Oh yea, and be sure that when you function test your pistol, you function test it with the ammo you'll be carrying, not cheapo or reloads!
One more thing to add - I don't know where I learned this, but I have six carry mags for each of my carry autos. I use three, and then when it's time for me to set my clocks forward or backward each spring and fall, I unload those mags and switch to the other three. I also buy new mag springs every two years - new springs for both sets - and then before I swap into the other set of mags, I replace the springs and then test fire to assure proper function before carrying with 'em. Mentioning that because it also relates to function checking before carry.
Best,
Jon
P.S. - Oh yea, and be sure that when you function test your pistol, you function test it with the ammo you'll be carrying, not cheapo or reloads!
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1,062 Posts
Oh, and I just saw the thing re: revolvers being a joke for combat. If by "combat" you mean "war/military carry," then I agree. If you mean that they are a joke for defensive concealed carry, then I disagree in strongest terms! They may not be the best choice for one particular person, but they are certainly a viable, and sometimes even a better, choice for others.
Best,
Jon
Best,
Jon
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126 Posts
Reply to Big Jon Re: cheapo ammo
I won't shoot "cheapo" stuff- because I might get used to it and make the mistake of having some in my carry weapon (Colt Python 6" barrel) and just as in a fabrication job- welding rod or 16d nails are the items you use up without cost concern- if you drop some rod or nails- from a work scaffold let's say- it costs the boss more in your time spent retrieving same and cleaning the dirt off- then to just get a new refill-and there is no $ price tag on my safety-or that of my Lady- who carries the Colt .38 snubbie- if I have to drop the hammer on a bad evil guy who intends to *&^% me (or us) up just because he had a bad day and ran out of heroin or coke- I want the top issue ammo in all 6 houses in that Colt- and it will be for "center mass"- none of this Hollywood "wing and wounding" cheap &^% either-:flamethr::flamethr:
I won't shoot "cheapo" stuff- because I might get used to it and make the mistake of having some in my carry weapon (Colt Python 6" barrel) and just as in a fabrication job- welding rod or 16d nails are the items you use up without cost concern- if you drop some rod or nails- from a work scaffold let's say- it costs the boss more in your time spent retrieving same and cleaning the dirt off- then to just get a new refill-and there is no $ price tag on my safety-or that of my Lady- who carries the Colt .38 snubbie- if I have to drop the hammer on a bad evil guy who intends to *&^% me (or us) up just because he had a bad day and ran out of heroin or coke- I want the top issue ammo in all 6 houses in that Colt- and it will be for "center mass"- none of this Hollywood "wing and wounding" cheap &^% either-:flamethr::flamethr:
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Good points, S. One idea, though, that I read somewhere and then tried is to not touch the pistol (assuming you're already carrying it) when you get to the range, and then set up the target(s), go to the line, and go through a full drawing and firing sequence for the first mag. That seems to tell me if, and if so where, I'm lacking with going from cold, and using my carry ammo. Then, the rest of practice is with reloads mostly. I do try to do some of my practice sessions entirely with carry ammot as well (at least, as bucks permit!)
Best,
Jon
Best,
Jon
Talon Ammo is Available
Winchester Black Talon was never really taken off the market... It was just renamed. You can find Talons as Winchester "T" Series. The "T" really is for Talon. This ammo is listed as LE (Law Enforcement) sale only, but I buy it from a few online sources. You can find the "T" Series as regular and Bonded, with the Bonded being able to penetrate hard barriers better.
The LE only sales is not a federal law... It is a Winchester policy. So feel free to buy as long as you don't have a local or state law against it.
A Talon by any other name...
You get the picture.
If you liked Black Talon ammo, then you should really look at Federal Premium HST ammo for LE's. This ammo is proving to outperform every other self-defense ammo by a wide margin. Just look at the LE agency test reports. (Google it) The HST's are the best at expansion, penetration and weight retention of any round available today.
The huge benefit of HST's is that Federal prices these bad boys for LE's at about half the cost of Winchester "T", Federal Hydra-Shok (Go figure) or CCI Gold-dots.
Smarter Gun,
I know the parent company is the same as two of the brands mentioned above; but, some scary things have been reported about Federal ammunition, lately; and I, for one, have been staying away from the Federal stuff.
If price is an issue, Sellier & Bellot and Wolf are acceptable to use; and, personally speaking, I've been impressed with recent purchases of, both, Fiocchi and PMC pistol ammunition. 'Wally-World' has their Winchester, 'white-box' ammo specials. This stuff shoots reliably, and isn't too dirty; but, by the time you're finished, you'll be left with the overall impression that you haven't been shooting high class ammo! (You'll be right, too.)
I recently completed a 400 round qualification course using Fiocchi 45acp hardball. Not a hiccup, and very clean. For your information I use the big three: Speer, 'Gold Dot', Remington, 'Golden Sabre', and Winchester, 'Silvertips' in my carry guns. I wish that Winchester, 'Black Talons' were still available; I can't see any good reason, 'Why' this excellent combat ammunition was pulled from the shelves. (More stupid mass-media hysteria, I think!)
The important point to make, here, is to be sure to, 'wring the gun out' before you start to carry it. Good for you to have asked this question!
Winchester Black Talon was never really taken off the market... It was just renamed. You can find Talons as Winchester "T" Series. The "T" really is for Talon. This ammo is listed as LE (Law Enforcement) sale only, but I buy it from a few online sources. You can find the "T" Series as regular and Bonded, with the Bonded being able to penetrate hard barriers better.
The LE only sales is not a federal law... It is a Winchester policy. So feel free to buy as long as you don't have a local or state law against it.
A Talon by any other name...
You get the picture.
If you liked Black Talon ammo, then you should really look at Federal Premium HST ammo for LE's. This ammo is proving to outperform every other self-defense ammo by a wide margin. Just look at the LE agency test reports. (Google it) The HST's are the best at expansion, penetration and weight retention of any round available today.
The huge benefit of HST's is that Federal prices these bad boys for LE's at about half the cost of Winchester "T", Federal Hydra-Shok (Go figure) or CCI Gold-dots.
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