acceptance figures for 308 ball are 3", 100 yds.
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12" misses a man with 1/4of your shots, if he's sizeways, if you have PERFECT placement, no wind or mirage, and a sandbagged bench to fire from. HA HA.
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I'll tell you what Gunkid, I'm on annual leave at this time and haven't got the pub on Canadian 147 grain 7.62mm Ball on hand at this time. I will get back to you on this topic after 03 Jan. I will quote chapter and verse from our technical pubs. This way you only have to wait 2 weeks to be proven wrong again.
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I don't know about you guys,but around here a 300M shot is a fairly long one.Very few wide open spaces.
Perhaps more imporantly,if SHTF scenario happens then it's not .308 in a battle rifle that'll likely be grabbed.It's .30-06/.270/.35REM/Whelen/.280/.243.IOWs,it's the deer rifle calibers that'll likely make up the vast majority of guns post SHF.
Think a minute.How many people do you know or work with who own a rifle or two but don't share any real interest in either lots of practice or having/using a "battle rifle"?
Those people,who probably out number any survivalist group by several hundred to one,are going to be using something other than an AR or FAL/MIA(or Garand) to shoot at you.& their ballistics are all over the chart.
Worring about how much drop @ 300m a .308 has vs. a .223 seems a little tunnel visioned to me.Good to know if that's what you're shooting but pointless to argue over.
Perhaps more imporantly,if SHTF scenario happens then it's not .308 in a battle rifle that'll likely be grabbed.It's .30-06/.270/.35REM/Whelen/.280/.243.IOWs,it's the deer rifle calibers that'll likely make up the vast majority of guns post SHF.
Think a minute.How many people do you know or work with who own a rifle or two but don't share any real interest in either lots of practice or having/using a "battle rifle"?
Those people,who probably out number any survivalist group by several hundred to one,are going to be using something other than an AR or FAL/MIA(or Garand) to shoot at you.& their ballistics are all over the chart.
Worring about how much drop @ 300m a .308 has vs. a .223 seems a little tunnel visioned to me.Good to know if that's what you're shooting but pointless to argue over.
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JD is talking about M80 ball belted for MG use. I have several cases of Hertinberger that run 1 1/2 MOA and some South African that goes better than that in my scout scoped M1A.
Speaking of "standards", most think that a self proclaimed survivalist poaching expert should probualy have more experience than one head of game every ten years and knowing what mountain range he lives in might come in handy as well.
Teuf,
Speaking of "standards", most think that a self proclaimed survivalist poaching expert should probualy have more experience than one head of game every ten years and knowing what mountain range he lives in might come in handy as well.
Teuf,
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41 Mag, I live in the land where trees are 10 miles apart. Long shots are very possible and for hunters currently very regular. If the balloon ever went up and you had to engage a hostile force, you are better to engage it at the farthest distance possible. Based on my past and current experience, I'm comfortable out to 500 meters.
I agree with you that only in fantasy land will everyone run around shooting at each other with AR's. The average firearms owner probably has just a little more than a box and a half of ammo available to him.
If the balloon ever goes up, it will be come as you are, much like most warfare these days. The supplies that you have prepared will be those available to you. Its a fantasy to think that you will be able to buy spare ammo at mom and pop's hardware store or to think that you can resupply yourself off the dead bodies of your "enemy". Firing 1 or 2 rounds to neutralize a target makes far more sense than 10 or 15. You will have no idea how long your dwindling supply of ammo has to last. Maybe, the rest of your life!! Also keep in mind that you have to adequately store your ammo and have the ability to transport it easily also.
I agree with you that only in fantasy land will everyone run around shooting at each other with AR's. The average firearms owner probably has just a little more than a box and a half of ammo available to him.
If the balloon ever goes up, it will be come as you are, much like most warfare these days. The supplies that you have prepared will be those available to you. Its a fantasy to think that you will be able to buy spare ammo at mom and pop's hardware store or to think that you can resupply yourself off the dead bodies of your "enemy". Firing 1 or 2 rounds to neutralize a target makes far more sense than 10 or 15. You will have no idea how long your dwindling supply of ammo has to last. Maybe, the rest of your life!! Also keep in mind that you have to adequately store your ammo and have the ability to transport it easily also.
.41 Mag:
Look down a road. Look down high-tension wire right-of-ways. There's several places where you MIGHT have to shoot at long range.
Now, you also have to be careful about what people call "survivalism". A lot of people these days use that term because "militia" has been so demonized. There's people who want to survive, and those that have dreams of being a guerilla fighter.
The strict survivalist doesn't need any one particular weapon to survive. In fact there are a lot more things that are not weapon related that are needed more. The survivalist, by nature, will AVOID firefights, not go running headlong towards gunfire, like CowardKid thinks.
The wannabe guerilla will have his choices limited a lot more, as he will have to worry primarily about fighting other people, and survival is secondary.
But, either way, it's not a bad idea to have a long-range capable rifle. If nothing else, it will hit harder at the more common short ranges, and will have the capability to hit further out. If you "go kommando" and think the AR or AK are the be-al and end-all, then you are limiting yourself to about 250 yards. Yes, the AR (full size) can HIT further out, but not with much power..
Garand is also right about the whole "reload off the dead" thing. Unless YOU shot the person, and get the ammo RIGHT THEN, and take the ammo they had READY TO USE, you'd better avoid it. Why? It's an old trick to booby trap ammo with a caseload of Bullseye or C4. If you find ammo laying around, even if there is a body, it's too much risk to take. If you freshly killed someone (for whatever reason) I'd avoid the ammo from his ruck also, because it may have been "worked up" to lay down as a trap. However, it's unlikely that one would put trapped ammo on their web gear along with the ammo they intend to use.
So, in short, you won't be "harvesting" much ammo. If you DO get a fresh kill, guess what? you'll have his weapon also, and it won't matter if the ammo is the same as what your primary weapon uses or not. Ammo that is commonly found is also irrelevant. Stock up your own stash of it. After SHTF, you won't be able to walk into a gun shop or wally world and buy it. What wasn't bought or looted right away, will most likely have been confiscated to disarm the populace for easier control.
Basically, you "run what you brung", think accordingly.
Look down a road. Look down high-tension wire right-of-ways. There's several places where you MIGHT have to shoot at long range.
Now, you also have to be careful about what people call "survivalism". A lot of people these days use that term because "militia" has been so demonized. There's people who want to survive, and those that have dreams of being a guerilla fighter.
The strict survivalist doesn't need any one particular weapon to survive. In fact there are a lot more things that are not weapon related that are needed more. The survivalist, by nature, will AVOID firefights, not go running headlong towards gunfire, like CowardKid thinks.
The wannabe guerilla will have his choices limited a lot more, as he will have to worry primarily about fighting other people, and survival is secondary.
But, either way, it's not a bad idea to have a long-range capable rifle. If nothing else, it will hit harder at the more common short ranges, and will have the capability to hit further out. If you "go kommando" and think the AR or AK are the be-al and end-all, then you are limiting yourself to about 250 yards. Yes, the AR (full size) can HIT further out, but not with much power..
Garand is also right about the whole "reload off the dead" thing. Unless YOU shot the person, and get the ammo RIGHT THEN, and take the ammo they had READY TO USE, you'd better avoid it. Why? It's an old trick to booby trap ammo with a caseload of Bullseye or C4. If you find ammo laying around, even if there is a body, it's too much risk to take. If you freshly killed someone (for whatever reason) I'd avoid the ammo from his ruck also, because it may have been "worked up" to lay down as a trap. However, it's unlikely that one would put trapped ammo on their web gear along with the ammo they intend to use.
So, in short, you won't be "harvesting" much ammo. If you DO get a fresh kill, guess what? you'll have his weapon also, and it won't matter if the ammo is the same as what your primary weapon uses or not. Ammo that is commonly found is also irrelevant. Stock up your own stash of it. After SHTF, you won't be able to walk into a gun shop or wally world and buy it. What wasn't bought or looted right away, will most likely have been confiscated to disarm the populace for easier control.
Basically, you "run what you brung", think accordingly.
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ATTN* mag-41
what is it you want?[for a rifle]
dude , relax! your as 'well armed' as anybody! in your own mind![that's the kicker!confidence x tactics] and if you ever venture to 'T' town maybe the tribe of brass-hammer[wayne] could help you in your 'quest' for a combat rifle!
[ i really prefer the shot-gun my-self,[[ for urburn fights]] but have left NO stone unturned]
just get some more laps around the track!
:wavey:[i re-read your post, i missed it at first, the ballistics/trajectory is a moot point when a persons chest/head is vaporized by a optically sighted deer rifle at 500 yards or more....sorry!
what is it you want?[for a rifle]
dude , relax! your as 'well armed' as anybody! in your own mind![that's the kicker!confidence x tactics] and if you ever venture to 'T' town maybe the tribe of brass-hammer[wayne] could help you in your 'quest' for a combat rifle!
[ i really prefer the shot-gun my-self,[[ for urburn fights]] but have left NO stone unturned]
just get some more laps around the track!
:wavey:[i re-read your post, i missed it at first, the ballistics/trajectory is a moot point when a persons chest/head is vaporized by a optically sighted deer rifle at 500 yards or more....sorry!
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Ramdom samples of production Lake City M118 Special Ball are tested for accuracy and velocity, extreme spread ect. during production on test fictures made from 1903 Springfield actions with Hart barrels.
When the development of the Lake City M118LR (175 grain Sierra Match King) started they bulit some new fictures that were more like a M40. They probually had 26" barrels though since all the early data they provided didn't quite pan out in the field. They wouldn't say though, the Lake City bunch is tight lipped.
It took quite awhile to figure out what powder they were using so equivilent loads could be "home brewwed". It's a balance buliding decent ammo in quanity. Metering a consistent powder load is probualy the biggest challenge. Traditionally they used a 4895 equivilent, it is stable under a wide variety of temps (it was the first powder to be engineered for that trait) but it is long grained and doesn't meter all that great.
Unless things have changed real recently they are still using RE-15 in the M118LR it has a short, easy to meter size and is temp tolerent like 4895 and 4064. Varget was used for awhile in the M118L, very temp insensitive and smaller than 4895, but bigger than RE-15.
The end user units don't test ammo when it comes to service rifles. You can bet that individual lots are tested for accuracy in the units using the Special Ball. They get shot over privately bought chono's and the good lots get squirred away and the average gets shot up during MOUT training.
So the short answer is that end users don't test service rifle ammo for an accuracy standard but the manufacturer does for military acceptance standards.
Teuf,
When the development of the Lake City M118LR (175 grain Sierra Match King) started they bulit some new fictures that were more like a M40. They probually had 26" barrels though since all the early data they provided didn't quite pan out in the field. They wouldn't say though, the Lake City bunch is tight lipped.
It took quite awhile to figure out what powder they were using so equivilent loads could be "home brewwed". It's a balance buliding decent ammo in quanity. Metering a consistent powder load is probualy the biggest challenge. Traditionally they used a 4895 equivilent, it is stable under a wide variety of temps (it was the first powder to be engineered for that trait) but it is long grained and doesn't meter all that great.
Unless things have changed real recently they are still using RE-15 in the M118LR it has a short, easy to meter size and is temp tolerent like 4895 and 4064. Varget was used for awhile in the M118L, very temp insensitive and smaller than 4895, but bigger than RE-15.
The end user units don't test ammo when it comes to service rifles. You can bet that individual lots are tested for accuracy in the units using the Special Ball. They get shot over privately bought chono's and the good lots get squirred away and the average gets shot up during MOUT training.
So the short answer is that end users don't test service rifle ammo for an accuracy standard but the manufacturer does for military acceptance standards.
Teuf,
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I almost forgot that I was going to get back to Barney Fife's second favorite assistant. Gunkid, you must be thrilled that you are NEXT in line to hold the bullet!!!
Data on the Canadian 7.62mm NATO Ball rd, C21, chapter and verse;
Accuracy- The average mean radii of all targets of the sample cartridges fired at 600 yards(549 meters) shall not exceed 8.0 inches (203 mm).
Velocity- The average velocity of the sample cartridges shall not exceed 2750 feet per second (838 meters per second) at 78 feet (24 meters) from the muzzle of the gun.
Penetration- At 600 yds (549 meters) the bullet shall pass through a 10 gauge (0.135 inches (3.43mm)) mild steel plate.
In Canadian government pubs the word "shall", means that compliance is mandatory and there are no exceptions.
See Gunkid, once more your WRONG!!
Data on the Canadian 7.62mm NATO Ball rd, C21, chapter and verse;
Accuracy- The average mean radii of all targets of the sample cartridges fired at 600 yards(549 meters) shall not exceed 8.0 inches (203 mm).
Velocity- The average velocity of the sample cartridges shall not exceed 2750 feet per second (838 meters per second) at 78 feet (24 meters) from the muzzle of the gun.
Penetration- At 600 yds (549 meters) the bullet shall pass through a 10 gauge (0.135 inches (3.43mm)) mild steel plate.
In Canadian government pubs the word "shall", means that compliance is mandatory and there are no exceptions.
See Gunkid, once more your WRONG!!
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