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Discussion Starter #1
has this ever happened to anyone else?

Open Thursday, December 30, 2004 Issue #30315
Subject: Seller Responds to GunBroker.com Inquiry
Item Number: 26689335


12/30/2004 9:49:58 AM
GBSupport1010 Seller sends the following response to GunBroker.com's inquiry regarding item 26689335:
12/30/2004 12:09:22 AM] GB Support
Buyer sends Gunbroker.com the following message:
[12/29/2004 5:33:32 PM] Ranthar [ACTIVE] Sean Duval ([email protected])
Please note that this is a repeat problem with the seller and is wrong to do.
Made bid buy opting to buy now.
received email from gunbroker informing me i had won.
got contact info.
made contact.
seller asked for more that previously agreed amount for shipping (not the problem) but do have supporting emails. both before and after the bid.
sent the $1024.00 in the form of money orders.
seller received them.
called me on as requested in my letter(have letter it was returned with money orders)
during phone call i was informed that he DID NOT HAVE THE WEAPON in question. he was waiting for someone to mail it back to him. since my money got there before pistol and he did not have pistol and no way to get pistol he would have to return my money orders uncashed.
It is unethical to place an item for auction without possesion of the item. as i understand the rules it is also not allowed to do so under your aution system (or any other i am aware of)
the rules also state that if seller fails to complete transaction with winning bidder that you will terminate thier account. I have had just over a grand tied up in this BS for over two weeks. both my wife and i are avid collectors and shooters now i have an upset wife who had requested this for her christmas gift. I bid, was notified that i won, and the seller reniged only after funds were in his hand. AFTER I TOLD HER I HAD IT PURCHASED showed her the auction and emails.
this is totally unacceptable!
as this is the 1st major problem i have had the displeasure to expiriance on gunbroker i will be rather interested in your reply and actions. documentation of all email and scans of sent and now returned mail available if you desire them.
Please feel free to review my account as well.
sean
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[12/30/2004 12:01:37 AM] GB Support
Please complete the following to protect yourself:
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/FraudInsurance.asp
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/FraudClaimProcess.asp
Fraud FBI
File here for FBI Internet Fraud Claims
http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp
We will copy seller with your message as well as our comments. Once filed we will investigate the issue thoroughly. Thank you, Gunbroker.com
____________________________________________
To Seller "ton80":
You are one of our largest and most respected sellers here at GunBroker.com. This kind of comment from a buyer is very unusual to say the least. Please contact this buyer and reply to Gunbroker.com what is happening regarding this issue. Thank you in advance for your prompt reply. GunBroker.com
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[12/30/2004 8:04:24 AM] ton80 [ACTIVE] Phil Thompson ([email protected])
HELLO, I CONTACTED THE CUSTOMER AS SOON AS I FOUND THE PROBLEM AND REFUNDED HIS FUNDS. I SOLD THIS PISTOL TO ANOTHER BIDDER AND WHEN HE RECEIVED IT HE CALLED AND SAID HE WAS NOT HAPPY WITH IT, I TOLD HIM TO RETURN IT AND A REFUND WOULD BE ISSUED. I RELISTED THE ITEM BUT THE CUSTOMER DECIDED TO KEEP AND DID NOT RETURN IT AND DID NOT NOTIFY ME OF THIS. THEREFORE WHEN NEW CUSTOMER PURCHASED IT I DIDNT HAVE THE PISTOL TO SEND. I EXPLAINED THIS TO NEW CUSTOMER, BUT I GUESS HE WAS NOT HAPPY. I DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO.
THANKS PHIL
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[12/30/2004 9:37:04 AM] GB Support
If you refunded the buyer's payment, you have done everything you could. Thank you for responding to our message. Will forward your response to buyer and add our comments (copy to you as well). Thank you, GunBroker.com
________________________________________
To Buyer Ranthar:
This is an excellent and very honorable seller here at GunBroker.com with over 1500 completed transactions on GunBroker.com. Understand your frustration here as you wanted the item and paid for it. Seller did all he could do under the circumstances. Previous buyer said he was returning the item and then decided to keep it and did not notify the seller of this fact. While its disappointing to you, seller did the only thing he could do and refunded your payment. Both the seller as well as Gunbroker.com are sorry this happened to you (especially at Christmas). Maybe seller could locate a similar item for you? In any case, we thank you for using GunBroker.com and and sincerely appologize for the issue as it transpired.
Thank you for contacting and using GunBroker.com, “The World’s Largest Online Auction Site for Firearms & Accessories”. http://www.gunBroker.com/


12/30/2004 8:09:40 PM
Sean Duval not really that impressed with this.
i had already accomplished the same end.
is it then ok for me to list things not in my possesion?
figering that they will arrive.
and then not inform the buyers till the cash hits my desk?
this is dishonorable and not the way it works according to your own rules.
it would appear that in this case money talks and while you are a business and the seller does provide you with a profit from his sales and i am sure a reasonable one at that. i am not as profitable a customer of yours....however ethics are the issue here. please read the following quotes from your own page.

"What if I list the same item in Shotgun News, gun shows, etc?
There are two ways this can be accomplished:

If the item has not been bid on or if the Reserve Price has not been met, you can use our End an Auction function located in For Sellers to close your auction listing before its scheduled completion date. If the item currently has a winning bidder, you must consider it to be sold and must use the 2nd option.
You can direct any interested parties to the auction listing on GunBroker.com and suggest that they bid on the item.
Please always keep in mind that if the item is won here, it must be sold to the winning bidder. Although it is a harsh remedy, we terminate the accounts of seller who fail to complete transactions."

seems more like the rules bend to protect the cash flow.
i would call this a lack of integrity. how would you interpret this rule of yours?
sean


sean :hot:
 

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yes, i feel sorry for you[your wife's christmas present, no less!]


[heavy sigh] that is a bummer, and the seller was operating under FALSE
PRETENSES. IMO.
 

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Well,I don't know.In my job I routinely sell items not yet in my possesion.The customer doesn't nessecarily know this.It is w/the understanding that I will get them to the customer in a timely fashion.Sometimes the unexpected happens.Weather usually is the culprit for me.

The above looks like a bad deal for both the second buyer & the seller.The buyer because he didn't get what he rightly should have & the seller because,even w/1500 positive sales,he now has a black mark against him.& he just lost,likely forever,a customer & all the internet friends of said unhappy customer.

It's too bad that the seller wasn't able to find another of the same item & maybe stall for a wee bit while it was ordered & shipped.With a bit of explanation I think that that would have made all parties happy.That is,of course,unless them item were unusual/obscure/offered @ a ridiculous price.

In my other hobby I've appeared to win a few times only to end up w/either a poor substitute or being just plain screwed.

If I were you I might ask,through Gun Broker,for the seller to try & come up w/another of the item.Unless the e-mails have turned nasty this might make the buyer happy & save a customer for the dealer.

Just a thought.
 

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He should not have listed it until it was back in his possession. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be too pissed, as he did return the funds. But it's really your wife that got screwed in the deal, as it was her Christmas present, and she knew it was coming, got all excited, and then it didn't show up. So she got bummed on her Christmas, didn't get the gift, even late, and I'm sure that hurt you too. In this case, yeah I'd be pissed.
 

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The seller was wrong to list the item without it being in his hands to ship to the winner. I would be angry too.

RIKA
 

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Raider said:
The seller was wrong to list the item without it being in his hands to ship to the winner. I would be angry too.

RIKA
Thats how I would look at it. From any angle.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
:headbang:
well this is the continuation/update
hope this is a learning expiriance for others as well as me.
:hot:

anyone else notice that the answers they have given
do not answer or address the entire complain or question?
:;puke02:



12/31/2004 11:22:12 AM
GBSupport1010
The ethics involved were both honorable and fair and broke no auction rules here. You just did not like the outcome. Same as returning a shirt to a department store for a flaw and they cannot replace the exact shirt. They do the best they can and refund your money. Sorry you had a bad experience but we wish we had many more sellers like "ton80" as he always does his best to address buyer's issues that come up. That’s why he has a rating of A+ on 1500 transactions. Again, we are sorry for what happened to you. There is nothing more we can do for you except apologize. Thank you, GunBroker.com



12/31/2004 1:35:23 PM
Sean Duval
your absolutely right i did and do not like it.
$$$ does talk but so do firearms forums and that is where all this will be posted if no wrong was done no worries right. i found out about GB on a forum so will others.
perhaps they can learn from my apparent mistake and i now believe that was not calling or emailing and asking specifically if the firearm was available....funny i thought thats thats why it was up for aution.
sean



12/31/2004 1:37:32 PM
Sean Duval
also the issue of my missing feedback has not been addressed. in other words you have not responded to that. was it erased? it was candid and gave an unbiased view on the transaction. this is a larger problem than the 1st.
sean




sean :headbang:
 

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Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Unless the buyer know's that the seller is trying to obtain the gun and does not have it in their possession it's at least false advertising and maybe a form of fraud. If I advertise a firearm of any sort I not only have it on hand I have it ready to ship the day the money order clears. Just good business. The tip off was the proud claim of Gunbroker that their client had made over "1500 sales." How much did Gunbroker make off that? How much have they made off of you? Sure they're going to back the other guy, right or wrong. $$$$ Talks. It was unethical. They had no right to take your money without the gun being in their possession. I won't do business with them. I have dealt through AuctionArms and would do so again. But to be perfectly honest it can be a crap shoot. I'm not that comfortable buying and selling over the Internet. Just me. Spread the word of this to other Forums, maybe it will have an effect on them in the future. About a year ago a certain distributor advertised Yugoslavian SKS's in Good to Very Good shape for $79.95. It turned out they were barely Fair with cracked stocks, pitted barrels, and a lot of rust scars. Word got around quickly and they ended up taking all of them back, plus paying shipping both way's. They have cleaned up they're act since. I don't know if it would help in your particular case, but I would do it for personal satisfaction. Hey! let's start an e-mail protest to Gunbroker and help a fellow Forum member out. I'm going to send one.
 

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If you really are upset about this issue then you could file a complaint in small claims court with or without a lawyer. The fact of the matter, based upon what you have presented, seems to be that Gun broker is full of shit about their own rules. I am sure if you were a buyer who reneged on a deal they would chatise you and maybe even terminate your account. Of course, as you pointed out, this guy probably makes a lot of money for them so my guess is they are overlooking his screw up. Legally however, I think you have them and him in a bind if you want to push it. The thing is, would that be worth all the bother?

Of course, sounds to me like his story was BS all the way. Did he ever show you the documentation to show he had actually sold it previously? Did Gun Broker ever verify that he sold it through one of their auctions? While I am not saying this seller did so, anyone can say: yeah I thought I would have it but wound up not having it because of some snafu, when in fact they had it all along and just sold it to someone elese at a higher price. I wonder if it was also listed on Auction Arms? If it had been me involved, I would have possibly left absolutely terrible feedback for that seller, and just never dealt with that seller again - but first I would have asked for further explanations or proof, and also checked his previous feedback. If there is no previous bad feedback well maybe he just messed up this one time by way of an honest mistake.
 

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I just checked out your auction. The seller had this listed at the bottom of the auction page:

We ensure this item is in stock at the beginning of the auction. However, inventories do shift and we cannot 100% guarantee immediate availability, some items are also available in the shop and may sell in shop therefore not being available. Please call shop to check before bidding.
Now to me that looks like a blatant violation of Gun Broker's rules, because he did not sell it to you and, because GunBroker repeatedly posts stuff like this on their site:
Once payment is received the seller will ship the item to the buyer, or to the Buyer's transfer dealer (FFL) in the case of modern firearms. This auction is a binding contract between the Seller and the Buyer(s).
I also consider it to be a bunch of bullshit on the seller's part, because as I understand this guy relisted the gun without having it in stock, and even his own ad assure it would have been in stock when listed. i have seen his ads before because I remember that BS sounding line about how it will be in stock but call us before you bid cause it maybe out of stock by that time. No where do the rules of GB allow such maybe I'll have it and maybe I won't kind of auctions.

I usually do not bid unless someone has very excellent feedback, 98% good or better. This guy had 98%, but when I looked at it, the first page alone had two rated as C in the red, which I was guessing was not good, and once having read I was sure it was not good.

Here are two from the first page:

kell1128 A+(4) 12/17/2004 03:53 PM 25129338 Seller
C: The auction listing did not indicate this was a "waiting list" transaction. Payment was sent, then I waited for three weeks for the guns to arrive
kapaa A+(5) 12/16/2004 07:57 PM 26082953 Seller
C: Did not have the gun he auctioned--hard to figure! But an alternative transaction went very well, with fast and professional service.
This was was a few pages into his feedback:

D: Item out of stock for 6 wks (fine). Seller falsely claiming in DAILY re-post of auction (each day for 6 wks) that item was in stock immediately prior to each day's auction (NOT fine)...misleading!
Now I tend to think this guy maybe got a better price for it during the middle of your auction and just sold it. Why not do some research of all of his negative feedback and show Gun broker how many times he allegedly has done likewise. Then show them their own rules again, then threaten both the seller and GB with legal action for fraud. Even if only a bluff, it may get you a great deal on a nice firearm - who knows!

Good luck.
 

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Heck, I have seen many instances of the same gun being on Gunbroker and AuctionArms at the same time. This in itself makes me suspect of the sellers moral fiber. I have toyed with the idea of placing winning bids on BOTH sites just to see what the seller would do about it.

Actually in my experience, I would rate gun dealers just a hair'd breadth above used car salesmen. I remember trading in a gun to a dealer and he was disappointed that I didn't have the manual in the original box. He said "It just makes it easier to sell a gun as a new gun when the manual and paperwork are all there." Which, of course, implies that he would have liked to sell an obviously used gun as new to someone else, if he could get away with it.

Anyway, I started a Board of Inquiry forum on one of my sites, in a completely different business, to try to deal with the scammers out there. I have actually thought many times that I wish there was a BOI for just about anything I had intentions to buy so I could check up on the sellers. I did set up a BOI on this site, but this site just isn't big enough, nor likely to, to make any dent in this sort of problem. I do have the domain name BoardOfInquiry.com, which I have toyed with the idea of setting up a general purpose site covering as many businesses as possible, but I'm not really sure I would want to tackle all of the headaches that particular site, if it got popular, would give me.

Push come to shove, the ONLY really effective way to go after a scammer is via peer pressure within their own industry. Especially if you try to make headway with a site they advertise on that is making money from THEM and not YOU.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
well as per gunbrokers request lol


12/31/2004 1:41:24 PM
GBSupport1010
You are free to do as you say, but please include all responses and be accurate (including our responses) when you post a forum message. We do the best we can and are the industry's and web's largest hunting and sport shooting site on the net (By a Factor of x10). We're not perfect, but we are working on it. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this issue with us. Respectfully, GunBroker.com


all of the discussion with gunbroker has been posted in an unadulterated fashion. as is fair. and must be relatively unbiased do to the fact that it was unchanged. this would just be annoying to me if not for GB's we will ensure that bad things don't happen on our site yadda yadda blah blah.....
seems thats a sales pitch and if you make 'em $$$ they have no desire to enforce thier own rules. would love for this to become a sticky lol.
i'm generally ticked enough thinking about setting up a GB's Expiriance site for all types of expiriances with them. just so the next person that finds GB on a search will also pull this up and have an idea of what to expect.

the court option....hmmmm....have the money.... can make the time....thinking about a lawyer...lol if i choose this option i will need a place to donate the settlement to if i win because i would just be looking at it from a punitive stand point not to get rich.

sean

P.S.
thank you all for your views on this and your feedback and happy new year.
 

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My only question would be what kind of settlement do you really expect? They did, after all, return your money. Would whatever else you could get make it worth the time and trouble?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
as i stated if. and you are right.
there are some problems with the if

i might not win
would likely cost more than settlement worth
gun industry of all kinds does NOT need more law suits
at this point thinking that suit would be for personal gratification..not a great reason.

alt view

suit might make things change on GB
nothing ever changes till it's forced..my complain wasn't effective.
sometimes things need to get heated to gain attention to a problem

end result
will do everything i can to get the word out so that others are not suprized by GB's actions
lawsuit most likely a pipe dream but a pleasing thought at the moment
thinking i will not be using GB's services again or if i find something i can not do with out will use an escrow service.
:rolleyes:
thank you again
sean
 
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