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A friend of mine emailed this to me. I thought you all would like to read it.



No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war,
this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of
background for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily
Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not
supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.

Tony Parsons... Daily Mirror...

One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass
murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the
pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol
Pot's
Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage
in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless
that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this
fate. Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the
perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's
comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.
There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country;
too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than
Europeans -- but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me.
More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally.
We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over
half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms,
as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago,
thousands of ordinary men, women and children -- not just Americans, but
from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious
fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the
planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's
son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.
And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for
their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or
Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The
anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the
Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering
from
power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes
without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
September 11.

Remember ... remember ... remember ... the gut-wrenching tapes of
weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were
burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning sky
scrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of
the planes with her mum.

Remember ... remember ...

And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the
way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray?
Pass the Kleenex ...
So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily
fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but
maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.
That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already
being raised against attacking Iraq -- that's what a democracy is for. How
many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered
innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that
the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -- and
didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most
powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not
provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell" if
America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of
hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the
face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than
perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these
wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or
in
the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand --
assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's
poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in
Riyadh.

Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be --
rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or
religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country
ever
had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the
burning towers.

Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the
hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell
it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York
Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.
Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and
set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save
me, Oh Mighty One!

Remember ... remember ... September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in
human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.
 
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Discussion Starter #2
I'm not against the war, but I feel we should be doing it for the proper reasons- oil not being one of them.
 
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Bush clings to dubious accusations

Bush clings to dubious accusations

Some U.S. claims about Saddam’s arsenal are hotly disputed

By Walter Pincus and Dana Milbank
THE WASHINGTON POST

WASHINGTON, March 18 — As the Bush administration prepares to attack Iraq this week, it is doing so on the basis of a number of allegations against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein that have been challenged — and in some cases disproved — by the United Nations, European governments and even U.S. intelligence reports.
 

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I do not believe for one minute that we are going to war against Iraq for oil (if that were our goal, why not just take it when we had the chance twelve years ago?). However, if it were the reason, I would still have no problems with that.

You may not like this fact, but it is true nonetheless. Oil is the life blood of this nation's (and, in fact, the world's) economy. We may all gripe and moan about this, but the fact is that oil determines how it is that we will be able to progress as a society. The very reason Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait was because of oil. The reason the French, Russians, Germans, and Chinese are unwilling to support regime change in Iraq is because of oil contracts they have with Saddam, which will be worthless under a new regime. Oil is what makes this world go around, and ANY dictator that is determined to cause America to fall (by military or economic measures) is a THREAT to our society! He needs to be taken out immediately, and we cannot tolerate him or others like him anymore.

The problem with this global community that we are all realizing in these modern times, is that we cannot get away from those who detest us. Fine, but we cannot allow their irrational judgments to stop us from being whatever in the world we want to be. We, the United States of America, are a nation built on the ideas of justice, freedom, and pride. We can have none of these things if we let some third-rate egomaniac tell us how our economy is going to be run.

War for oil? I don't think so at all. If it were, we'd nail Saudi Arabia instead. But even if it were the case, oil is reason enough in my book. If Saddam acquired an herbicide that wiped out our nation's grain production capabilities, would that be a reason to attack him? You bet it would, and oil is no different, except that it is even MORE important to our economy!

Just my opinions . . .take them or leave them as you determine is best.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
but I feel we should be doing it for the proper reasons- oil not being one of them.
I was unaware that oil was the reason this war was brought on. I dont think oil has much, if any, to do with the Iraqi problems.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
It has little to do with Iraqi problems, perhaps. But it has a lot to do with the motivating factors behind the US going to war.
 

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I'm sorry Stephen, but what evidence do you have of that? Again, I have no problem with that being the only reason if it were, but I just have not seen any evidence of that being the case. You are a fair minded person on the BOI, and I am not attacking you for your poinions here, but I just wonder why you actually think oil is a major factor in the Us foreign policy towards Iraq? If we really wanted the oil, would we not have just taken it twelve years ago? Also, when this war is over, if we do not take the oil for ourselves, what will you say about this country's motivations then?

I'm really not trying to fight with you abou this. I am just trying to understand why you believe as you do.

Thanks,
 
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It surprises me that so few realize what the motivating factor is. No offense, but thinking that it is oil is so shortsighted and unresearched as to be laughable. This country gets about 80% of its oil from places other than the middle east.

Be open minded for a minute.

I kept hearing people say taht what Bush is doing is stupid. I couldn't accept this. I kept thinking that the administration wouldn't have commited itself like it did unless ALL possible outcomes were beneficial to its goals.

If the US acts without UN support, then the US puts itself beyond UN control, and will achieve through military might what the UN couldn't in 12 years of efforts and resolutions.
End result: US is more powerful than the UN

The US says it will attack without UN support, and Saddam steps down due to this threat (which obviously isn't going to happen at this point). The threat of force from the US is so overwhelming that it accomplishes what the UN couldn't do in 12 years.
End result: US is more frightening and powerful than UN.

The US strongarms the UN into military action (also not a possibility now, but it was a week ago). The US is so strong, it can control the UN inspite of opposition from other UN countries.
End result: The US is more powerful than any and all UN countries, thus, more powerful than the UN.

IMO, the true aim of this war is to propel the US into a position of power on a global scale that even the UN cannot challenge. This would make the US the dominant power not only as far as individual countries, but would also make it dominant to all conglomerations of countries.

You have to remember, while it may seems stupid to you, the pres has a lot of extremely smart people working for him to help accomplish their goals. Nothing that is done in an official capacity is going to be done without a lot of forethought and they will do their best to make sure that all possible outcomes serve to further their goals. The trick is figuring out what the goals are.
 
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If I must cry for Americans lost, and I do cry (As much as I try not too) then I would much rather cry over Americans lost trying to stop that evil little worm, than over American civilians lost to terrorist attacks.

I don't really care if you, the world or our President think it is over Oil, Weapons of mass Destruction, or retaliation. To me, it's all about why I have to cry, and IF they intend to insure America must cry, well then I say we choose who we cry for.
 
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Is that link supposed to back your "War for oil" thoughts?

It did the opposite for me. I read it through a couple of times and I still dont see how GW is going to war for oil.
 
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No, actually it basically stated both sides of the argument and did a great deal to correct my own thinking.
 

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Washington post. I Liberal rag.

These "liberals" were ready to bomb Baghdad when Monica Lewinski was discovered on her knees with a liberal President in her mouth.

But know that all that hoopla is over......they all of a sudden want more "evidence".
 
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In light of the news, what do you say we let this discussion die and agree on "god bless america" (anyone that knows me knows just how hard it is for me to say that, lol)
 
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I think Darrin is closer to the target more than most tv commentators. Economic stability is what most of those in power would like to have happen. Without all the drama that has happened in the world the last few years the world economy is a cash cow for those in power (both those visible and those working behind the scenes). Removing the destabilizing factors (terrorists and those that bank role them) will increase consumer confidence. If consumer confidence is high then we spend money. As long as consumers are spending money then money is being made by those at the top.

9/11, Irag, Palestine/Israel conflict are all counter productive to the people running the world governments.
 
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One thing I think is funny,,,,
All the Saudis,,, All the Iraqis,,, AlL the middle eastern countries,,, send there best and brightest here to be educated by us,,,, then they use it against us,,,, in there eyes we are the scurge of the islam world,,, So why should we educate these people....

If we are as bad as they say we are,,, lets close our borders to them and to hell with educating them, to use it against us,,,


I guess we have to let them in,,, I mean after all,,, who would run all the second rate hotels,,, drive our taxis,,, and run our 7 elevens,,,,?

I am sorry for the way i feel if i have offended anyone,, but I can't stand the fact that We as Americans,Open our borders to these people, Educate them in the best schools we have, give them a chance we as Americans cherish( to be free to seek education where and when we like) and then they go home,,, ( one of the stans) and think of ways to use there educations against us,,,


I mean we taught the sept 11th guys how to fly jumbo jets , and when they didn't want to learn how to land,,, that didn't raise some red flags somewhere,,?
 
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Part of letting people in is what we stand for. It is America. Lets face it, at some time or another most of our ancestors came from somewhere else. People from all over deserve the same rights as we do.
As for the war, I have teetered on that before it started, I wound up falling in the pot that is for the war. I do tend to worry about the after effects, but as someone said in another thread, I believe it was Darin, we have to look at the after effects in all we do (not exact wording).
One part I am not liking is that we will help them re-build, then turn it over to someone else. I didn't see them coming over and helping us with 911. I know, I know we have to be better than they are, doesn't mean I have to like it.
 
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Part of letting people in is what we stand for. It is America. Lets face it, at some time or another most of our ancestors came from somewhere else. People from all over deserve the same rights as we do.
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I do agree we are just one big melting pot,,, and i do agree my ancestors came from somehwere else... but there has got to be some way to control who is coming into the US. Is it ok with you for all the people to be walking across the border with mexico everynight..?
is it ok with you for people from arab countries to come over here and do what they did to the twin towers..? and the thousands inside the towers..?

I am not against people "coming to America" but we need something in place to control who comes in... and the immigration service is not doing so hot..

Every one has the right to pursue happiness, i was in the armed forces to fight for it.. but everyone does not have the right to come here and kill the other people who pursue the right to be happy and live there lives,,,
That is My Only point.
 
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is it ok with you for people from arab countries to come over here and do what they did to the twin towers..?
INS and the 2000 Census estimates the population of Immigrants from Arab nations currently in the United states to be about about 1.5 Million...

After september eleventh, the FBI released the pictures and names of nineteen men they believed to be involved directly or indirectly, with the hijackings.

Which means for every hijacker there were about 78,947 Arab immigrants in the country who failed to crash airplanes into buildings.

It also means, rounded off to five signifigant digits, about 0.00126% of Arabs in the United States actually crashed airplanes into buildings.

Oh yeah... huge problem right there, we should ban them all from entering the borders because there's a one in eighty thousand chance they might be dangerous based on reccent history.
 
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Not everyone that comes here from the Middle East is here to get educated and then go back to try and use that education against us. I personally know SEVERAL people of Middle Eastern/Arabic/Persian descent that are very happy with being here and cherish the opportunities they've received in this country(is this where I get labeled a "sympathizer?"). They should not have been banned from coming here any more than many of our immigrant family members and ancestors were. Many of them came to America in search of something better, and many still do today.

Now Joe, you brought up the illegal border crossings in and out of Mexico. I am in total disagreement of that. Why would I be against that and for others coming to this country? Those crossing into the country illegally are breaking the law, they are not following proper channels to actually become resident aliens or naturalized citizens. Most of the people that are coming here from the Middle East(to my knowledge, I don't have stats in front of me so I might be wrong)to live and learn here do so through legal channels. They get the proper paperwork and green cards and they pay taxes to help support the country. Those slinking under the fence in the middle of the night are here to take advantage of the system without giving back. The majority don't pay taxes, yet are allowed to take advantage of the benefits the majority of us actually PAY for with our taxes. But, am I saying we need to banish these people or set up gun turrets on the border? No, but you are right in that SOMETHING needs to be done.

And one of my history teachers in high school put it best, "America is not the Melting Pot of the World. America is more of a Tossed Salad of the World, with many individual ingredients thrown together."
 
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