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I've yet to see ANY AR come close to even shooting the same let alone out shooting an M1A at anything past 600 yards.

Mike
 

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Until you are engaging targets that shoot back, especially behind cover or at longer ranges. How many AR's own the longer ranges?

Why is it the Army is evaluating replacement rounds for the .223?

The AR is a good platform.

On milsurp ammo, I think the cost differential isn't that much.

On handloaded ammo, I don't care as I am loading specific purpose ammo and performance is more important than saving a penny or two.

:devil:
 

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Let's see they are contracting for new M-14's as a DMR and looking at replacing the M-16. So what does that tell you Sparky?
 

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andy said:
much money. M1A is a stupid choice, period.
Idiot.

M16/M4's are a pain in the ass, in the field. You carry one around in the dirt (won't even talk about sand) for a week or two, and see how reliable it is. The M1 is a tank (literally M1A1 Abrams and Figuratively, M1 Garand - yes, that was tongue-in-cheek humor.)

The 223 is just too small a round, mass wise, to be effective at distance like the larger 308. It's more likely to drift, unless you're in a dead wind... and how often does THAT happen?

Not only that, but how many people have you shot with a .223? I'm betting none. How many people post-SHTF do you think will have body armor on? Not that many. You shoot someone with a M16/M4 .223 at less than 75 yards, and they'll have a pencil size hole all the way through them. You have to aim for spine, head or heart. I've seen this first hand. If they're on any kind of drugs or alcohol, and you're going to be hurting.

A 308, on the other hand, will pretty much knock anyone down, kevlar or not unless they're got a damn good truama plate under their vest... and even then, they're only good for around 6 rounds of .308 Win at best.

Range and accuracy aside, you need to look at your round as well. The .223 overpenetrates soft targets.

I'm looking into a 6.8, right now... the Robinson Arms XCR.
http://www.robarm.com/xcrtm_modular_weapon_system.htm

-T
 

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Discussion Starter #6
just because YOU are too stupid to use SP handloads, doesn't mean EVERYBODY is as big an idiot as you are. Go ahead, fire that noisy 308, and call in every enemy withing 2 miles. Stupidity at your level SHOULD be fatal.

How'd you like to be the FIRST one shot with a canned 10" barreled 223, dumbass?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
hey, dumbass, check OUT the drift figures for the 80 gr vld 223. They drift LESS than your stupid, inaccurate 308 ball ammo.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
75 gr V max's still expand and have 500 ft lbs left at 500 yds, dumbass. That's PLENTY of power. You take a NON expanding such a bullet in the chest, at 600 yds, you won't be doing anything but crying for your mama.
 

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At one mile Federal Gold Match .308s get quiet. You cant even hear it 2 miles away. Id know because when I chilled with friends alot in okeechobee the neighbor shot all the time with 308s to 50 calls. Couldnt hear the 308s or the 7mm Mags, 50s made some noise though.

BTW, 308 is one of the most accurate cartridges you can get especially in a tuned rifle. As noted here: http://www.hdrifle.com/photos/details.php?image_id=4 And yess, that IS one of the small, "tac em up" 1 inch diameter targets.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
A good sp to the chest, at ranges where it will expand, will put you right on your stupid FACE, where an idiot like you BELONGS.
 

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andy said:
A good sp to the chest, at ranges where it will expand, will put you right on your stupid FACE, where an idiot like you BELONGS.
Uhh, right andy. And a good bowling pin to the point on your head will put you on your fat butt where an idiot like you belongs.

I can see it now. A girl scout creeps up while you're asleep and pulls your condom cap over your face and smothers you some. Then she bonks you over the head with a bowling pin.

RIKA :)
 

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andy said:
A good sp to the chest, at ranges where it will expand, will put you right on your stupid FACE, where an idiot like you BELONGS.
And the range at which one will expand is greater for which round, the .223 or the .308?

Yes, the sp .223 will expand within it's envelope. It's envelope is about 1/2 the size of the envelope for the .308 in sp. Plus, beyond the envelope, it still puts a BIGGER HOLE in what you shoot.

Oh wait, I forgot, .308 can only be shot with ball ammo - right? I mean that how you always frame the argument, .223 sp vs .308 ball.

:devil:
 

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Still, at least he is making a better comparison. Usually its .223sp vs .45 ball.
 

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The absolutely funny thing about the VLD's is he is now talking about a single shot.

So, he needs specialized ammo, and he ends up with a rifle that is LESS useful than the bolt action he hates so much...

:devil:
 

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Hard Rock said:
I've yet to see ANY AR come close to even shooting the same let alone out shooting an M1A at anything past 600 yards.

Mike

I see you are not a highpower shooter and you don't know much about long range service rifle shooting.

The AR is wining the 1,000 yard service rifles nationals and beating the .30 caliber service rifles.
 

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andy said:
75 gr V max's still expand and have 500 ft lbs left at 500 yds, dumbass. That's PLENTY of power. You take a NON expanding such a bullet in the chest, at 600 yds, you won't be doing anything but crying for your mama.
There's no such bullet as a .224 75gr Vmax.

How can you claim that it will still expand when the bulet doesn't exist?
 

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andy said:
hey, dumbass, check OUT the drift figures for the 80 gr vld 223. They drift LESS than your stupid, inaccurate 308 ball ammo.
Lets try more of an apples to apples comparison instead of comparing a specialty long range bullet to common ball ammo.

80gr VLD @2000fps (if it's even that fast from a 10" barrel) 10MPH wind ay 90 degrees
*Note 1 in 8 twist barrel will be needed for this bullet and it wil have to be single loaded.

** Model 1 Sales, Andys preferred AR parts maker doesn't have a 1 in 8 twist AR barrel

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2000 -0.5 0 0 711 0
50 1921 0.94 1.27 0.08 656 0.7
100 1846 0 4.91 0.16 605 1.49
150 1773 -3.49 11.11 0.24 558 2.83
200 1703 -9.77 20.09 0.33 515 4.76
250 1635 -19.04 32.07 0.42 475 7.3
300 1569 -31.58 47.31 0.51 437 10.47
350 1506 -47.64 66.08 0.61 403 14.31
400 1446 -67.55 88.7 0.71 371 18.85
450 1389 -91.61 115.46 0.82 343 24.1
500 1335 -120.17 146.73 0.93 317 30.09
550 1285 -153.6 182.86 1.04 293 36.81
600 1238 -192.26 224.23 1.16 272 44.29
650 1196 -236.55 271.23 1.28 254 52.5
700 1157 -286.89 324.27 1.41 238 61.44
750 1123 -343.65 383.74 1.54 224 71.07
800 1093 -407.24 450.03 1.68 212 81.35
850 1066 -477.99 523.49 1.82 202 92.24
900 1041 -556.29 604.49 1.96 193 103.7
950 1019 -642.46 693.37 2.11 184 115.71
1000 1000 -736.82 790.44 2.25 178 128.23

30cal 168gr LTB [email protected] 2500fps (an easy velocity)
This Bullet is designed to be used from the magazine.

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2500 -0.5 0 0 2332 0
50 2404 0.5 0.84 0.06 2156 0.64
100 2315 0 3.19 0.13 1999 1.25
150 2227 -2.13 7.16 0.19 1850 2.28
200 2141 -6.03 12.9 0.26 1710 3.76
250 2057 -11.82 20.54 0.33 1578 5.71
300 1975 -19.68 30.24 0.41 1455 8.16
350 1895 -29.78 42.18 0.49 1340 11.14
400 1817 -42.29 56.54 0.57 1232 14.69
450 1742 -57.45 73.54 0.65 1132 18.82
500 1669 -75.47 93.4 0.74 1039 23.58
550 1599 -96.62 116.39 0.83 954 29
600 1531 -121.16 142.78 0.93 874 35.1
650 1467 -149.4 172.86 1.03 803 41.92
700 1406 -181.68 206.98 1.13 737 49.48
750 1348 -218.33 245.48 1.24 678 57.82
800 1295 -259.75 288.74 1.35 626 66.93
850 1245 -306.32 337.15 1.47 578 76.82
900 1200 -358.44 391.12 1.59 537 87.49
950 1159 -416.56 451.08 1.72 501 98.93
1000 1123 -481.07 517.43 1.85 470 111.1

155gr [email protected] 2800FPS
*A superior bullet in the area of terminal ballistic performance.
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2800 -0.5 0 0 2698 0
50 2689 0.35 0.68 0.06 2489 0.62
100 2586 0 2.57 0.11 2302 1.18
150 2485 -1.66 5.76 0.17 2125 2.14
200 2387 -4.73 10.36 0.23 1961 3.5
250 2291 -9.33 16.5 0.3 1807 5.3
300 2198 -15.6 24.3 0.37 1663 7.55
350 2107 -23.66 33.9 0.44 1528 10.3
400 2017 -33.7 45.47 0.51 1400 13.56
450 1930 -45.88 59.18 0.58 1282 17.38
500 1846 -60.38 75.22 0.66 1173 21.78
550 1765 -77.45 93.82 0.75 1072 26.81
600 1686 -97.31 115.21 0.83 978 32.49
650 1610 -120.22 139.66 0.92 892 38.87
700 1537 -146.5 167.47 1.02 813 45.98
750 1468 -176.44 198.94 1.12 742 53.86
800 1402 -210.4 234.44 1.22 677 62.53
850 1341 -248.78 274.35 1.33 619 72.03
900 1284 -291.95 319.06 1.45 567 82.37
950 1232 -340.37 369.01 1.57 522 93.55
1000 1185 -394.47 424.64 1.69 483 105.57
 

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Just for fun lets compare 22ball ammo in a 10" 223 to a 30cal 175gr SMK
:flamethr:
All drifts are for 10mph 90 degree wind

223 55gr ball @2600fps (if that!)
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2600 -0.5 0 0 826 0
50 2412 0.5 0.8 0.06 711 0.82
100 2241 0 3.09 0.13 613 1.98
150 2076 -2.24 7.13 0.2 526 3.99
200 1918 -6.51 13.19 0.27 449 6.97
250 1769 -13.14 21.62 0.35 382 11
300 1628 -22.56 32.84 0.44 324 16.23
350 1498 -35.29 47.36 0.54 274 22.76
400 1379 -51.89 65.76 0.64 232 30.71
450 1274 -73.08 88.74 0.76 198 40.16
500 1184 -99.61 117.07 0.88 171 51.14
550 1112 -132.34 151.6 1.01 151 63.6
600 1054 -172.07 193.12 1.15 136 77.37
650 1007 -219.57 242.42 1.29 124 92.34
700 969 -275.57 300.21 1.44 115 108.36
750 936 -340.71 367.15 1.6 107 125.35
800 907 -415.63 443.87 1.77 100 143.22
850 881 -500.95 530.98 1.93 95 161.94
900 857 -597.23 629.06 2.11 90 181.5
950 834 -705.09 738.71 2.28 85 201.87
1000 813 -825.12 860.54 2.47 81 223.03

30cal 175gr [email protected] 2650fps (M118LR)

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2650 -0.5 0 0 2729 0
50 2556 0.42 0.75 0.06 2539 0.61
100 2469 0 2.84 0.12 2369 1.14
150 2383 -1.85 6.36 0.18 2207 2.03
200 2299 -5.24 11.41 0.25 2054 3.3
250 2217 -10.28 18.12 0.31 1910 4.97
300 2137 -17.09 26.6 0.38 1775 7.06
350 2058 -25.81 36.99 0.45 1646 9.6
400 1981 -36.58 49.43 0.53 1525 12.61
450 1905 -49.58 64.1 0.6 1410 16.12
500 1832 -64.99 81.17 0.68 1304 20.15
550 1761 -82.98 100.83 0.77 1205 24.72
550 1743 -83.68 101.55 0.77 1181 25.4
600 1673 -104.73 124.27 0.86 1088 30.71
650 1606 -128.89 150.1 0.95 1002 36.65
700 1540 -156.41 179.29 1.05 922 43.25
750 1478 -187.59 212.14 1.15 849 50.53
800 1419 -222.73 248.95 1.25 782 58.52
850 1363 -262.17 290.06 1.36 722 67.25
900 1310 -306.27 335.83 1.47 667 76.72
950 1262 -355.4 386.63 1.59 619 86.94
1000 1217 -409.94 442.84 1.71 576 97.91

*note that there is a known BC crossover point at 1800fs with this bullet thus there are two data points given for the range near that point.
 

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The AR has ruled the 600 yard line in highpower for a long time and now with the 90 and 95 grain bullets it is winning the nationals at Camp Perry at 1,000 yards.

This is two or three years in a row the AR took the 1,000 yard service rifle nationals.

If the top highpower shooters thought the M1a was still better they would still be using it.

I own the Garand, M1a and a competion AR. I shoot all three a lot. I use the AR in highpower competition because it is better for highpower competition.

For serious business I would take the M1a or Garand so screw you GunKid.
 

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300-800 yd rifles
 

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