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Discussion Starter #1
I guess we all know about Andy's shooting experiences from back in the 1970's. I too was shooting back in the day. I didn't shoot IPSC and frankly I thought bottom feeders were nonsense. I shot revolvers, mostly PPC and the now defunct National Shooter's League. The NSL was a novel idea but it fell on it's butt for several reasons. To hard for all but the elite precision shooters, the match founder wanted total autonomy but he also wanted industry support, the pissing match with Harlan Carter, his run in with John Bianchi, and the list goes on. I'll post about the NSL later in the week as time allows.

Anyhow, the type of shooting I did had nothing to do with self defense type of shooting. I used Smith and Wesson revolvers by Ron Power. My favorite was a model 28 he reamed out to .44 Special, 6 inch bull barrel, Bomar Rib, deep blue job, double action only smooth as butter.

We had a side match that we held after the qualification runs (only the top 40 could play) but before the finals. Speaking of the finals, I had 3 minutes of fame on ESPN. Oh, back to the side match. The side match was really simple. Doc (the founder) put a Zerox copy of a 100 dollar bill (8 1/2 by 11 paper) on a target frame at 100 yards. The competitor would fire six rounds, standing without support at the $100.00 dollar bill. Most hits on the $100.00 bill won, with ties being broken by hits on the paper.

I stoked up the .44 special, cranked off 6 rounds double action, and had 3 hits on the $100.00 bill and 3 just off the bill on the paper. I blamed in on the sun sucking my shots. Wow, I was in the running or so I thought. That's when I got schooled real hard. Royce took his kick at the pup. Double action only, .38 Special revolver of his making, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. I wasn't even close. Yeah, we didn't shoot fast, but we darn sure shot straight.
 

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what's the point? If you have all day,and a gun yoiu can't ccw, why not have a rifle, or get lots closer to the target. The NSL was a stupid luck shoot. The guy was too stupid to have enough scoring rings to separate out the shooters, and only the top man won anything. A guy who lucked out and get some hits on the half bullseye, and scattered other shots all over the paper beat out guys who had lots of nice shots, just .5" out of the half bullseye.
 

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Ankeny, more info on the NSL.
What were the allowed weapons?
Was there a minimum power level?
What was the typical range fired at?
 

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I want to hear more too. Thank you for posting.

RIKA
 

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No, I use a RIFLE for rifle type stuff. As I said, what's the point of moving slowly, trying to play golf with a ball bat?
 

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well, in some cases moving slow builds discipline. Mental discipline is important.

Instantly dismissing everything that does not fit your narrow view of things, may cause you to miss a few concepts that you may benefit from.

And most of the RIFLE stuff Andy touts tends to take place at pistol distances...

:devil:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
OK guys, since this is a shooting forum let’s talk about some shooting. I’ll keep this limited to one thread, but I’ll need to make multiple posts to discuss the course of fire, gear, targets, and the results. In the late 1978, Dr. Robert O. Burgess of Laramie, Wyoming founded the National Shooter’s League. I lived in Laramie at the time and I had the pleasure of watching the rise and fall of the NSL up close and personal. I spent a lot of hours talking about the NSL with Doc. I spent many more hours in training and competition shooting NSL courses in Colorado and Wyoming.

Here is a link to a scan of the course of fire.
The Course of Fire
I apologize for the quality and I know it’s hard to see so I’ll walk you through the course. The shooting was done from shooting pads. I don’t know the exact dimensions, but it seems like the shooting positions were about 4 feet by 4 feet. I just don’t recall. There were 10 targets, 2 shots per target for a total of 20 shots fired. The shooter started with hands at sides on the first pad. On the signal you would draw and fire two rounds at target number one, 16 yards distant, pivot and fire two rounds on target 2 at 33 yards. Two rounds and two rounds only were to be fired on each target.

After shooting at target 2 you were required to re-holster the gun. Leaving any position without the gun holstered resulted in a DQ. The shooter then moved to the position for target number 3 by jogging/walking/running (your choice) 33 yards up “the hill”. Upon arrival the shooter would draw and fire two rounds at target 3, 50 yards distant. Then it’s off to target 4. Target 4 was at 25 yards. The shooter was required to shoot with the gun in the weak hand, but a post was provided for support. Then to the corral for target 5 which was also weak hand but only 15 yards. Then we go around the corral to target 6. Target 6 was a tough shot. The target was 56 yards away. Then off to target 7, the last weak hand target, placed 22 yards away. Hop on over to target 8, a real easy shot at 20 yards. Hang a left and hump it over to target 9, a 30 yard shot, then up the hill to target 10, fire two rounds at the 60 yard target and sprint 51 yards to the finish line. The total distance covered by the shooter was 216 yards. You were allowed 3 ½ minutes to traverse the course.
 

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very interesting course

25yds weakhanded after running sounds tough

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Kretp:

Weak hand off a post is a standard position for PPC shooters. The Masters and High Masters pretty much dominated the weak hand shooting. In fact, revolver shooters dominated the match every year shooting double action only.

Let's talk about the gear. The gear for NSL was pretty simple. For handguns you could use a .38 or larger, no extension magazines, no shoulder stocks, conventional fixed sights. No divisions and no classifications. Dog eat dog and run with what you brung.

The targets were not exactly generous. The small target was used from 16 yards out to 33 yards. The target was round at the top. Like a tombstone. There were nine, ten and X rings. The 9 ring measured 3 inches wide and 2 ½ inches high. The 10 ring was 3 wide and a bit less than 2 high, the X ring was one inch by 1 3/8 inch. Here’s a link to the small target.

Small Target

The large target was used at 50, 56, and 60 yards. Again, there were nine, ten and X-rings. The 9 ring was 3 7/8 wide and 5 inches high to allow for vertical dispersion. The ten ring was 2 7/8 wide by 4 ½ high. The X-ring was 1 ½ wide by 3 ¾ high. Limiting the scoring rings to a nine and a 10 ring was done to make a miss as punitive as possible. This match was accuracy based. Here’s a link to the big target.

Big Target

During the twilight years of the NSL Doc was brow beaten into adding a five point score for any hit on the paper. This was done to appease the cry babies who couldn’t hit the 9 ring. The NSL was an ego crusher and the guys at the bottom of the heap whined when their pathetic scores were way off the pace. Adding five points for a hit on the paper made no difference for the top shooters but it narrowed the gap in reported scores and soothed broken egos
 

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It was a rich man's passtime, a real joke. That's why it died. If it had been someplace near a major population center,a nd if he'd spread the prize money around a bit more, it might have caught on, but he didn't and it didn't. It's a big waste of time and money to work on it, really, with 1 chance in 100 of winning back a dime of your expenses.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The NSL died a lingering death. The league started slowly, but eventually world class shooters came from across the planet from all of the accuracy based disciplines. The quality of marksmanship was phenomenal. To qualify, the shooter got three runs. The Top 40 were invited to play in the finals. The top hands shot remarkable scores on demand in all of their qualifying runs and in the finals too. The game even received National Television coverage. Then the sponsorship politics reared its ugly head.

Doc wanted a lot of money from corporate sponsors but he didn’t want their “cupie dolls”. Cash awards only. Major corporations offered their support, but they wanted recognition. What would be wrong with Smith sponsoring a target with a gun going to the best score on that target? Doc wouldn’t hear of it. Then he got pissed off at Harlan Carter and John Bianchi. Things got ugly. Doc screwed up.

Then there was the course of fire itself. This match tested two principles, wobble zone and fire control. The match frankly was dominated by guys who could shoot a group. The same guys placed in the top of the heap time and again because the average guy can’t hit the freaking targets. There was no room for growth. We started some farm clubs in Colorado and Wyoming, but we couldn’t get folks to shoot because the accuracy requirements were too restrictive.

On those occasions when I managed 16 hits in the black, I was delighted. In my last year I averaged 16 hits in the black in farm club matches and I often times finished the course with 17 or 18 hits. That’s good enough to finish in the cash. Is this match based on luck? No it is not. It’s based on a skill set that very few people possess and even fewer will ever understand. It was just too hard for the average shooter. The road to the top would be long and difficult so why bother? The match was for the shooting elite. News flash, that was the intent. Another bad decision.

For those who would have us believe the targets and distances are beyond human ability, look at the accomplishments of the top PPC and Bullseye shooters. Get on the web and look at the scores. How big is a slow fire NRA pistol target? How big is the ten ring on a B-27 target? Yeah, the very best can hit the targets.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Andy:

Running was never a prerequiste to winning, although the top guys didn't linger. I finished in the Top 20 each year that I shot the NSL and all I did was jog between the targets. The longest leg of the 216 yards was after the last shots were fired. Many shooters elected to start the run after target number 9, dump 2 rounds at ten then really sprint to the finish line. The NSL received a lot of bashing as being prohibitive and just plain luck. That opinion never came from those who had the required skill set because they knew better. It's too bad you have never shot the course of fire. I would like to have heard your first hand experiences.
 

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I'd never waste my time or money on it. It served no training function whatsoever. I'd rather shoot pool at the bar, frankly, and I don't care for that much at all. It would be a good match for the 22 rifle crowd, but the entire idea was just to make you waste 20,000 rds a year, and another $1000 on a trip out there. I wasn't ever interested.
 

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When I was competing, I was taking full time GI Bill college, and working full time. I had to do all my casting in winter, use the .22 unit wherever possible, have 10,000rds of brass that I could load all winter, etc. I'd try to practice in winter, but it was sporadic. I'd practice all day Sat's, when I could, and usually had a match on Sundays, 8 mos of the year. Gi Bill money and a $2000 Student loan is what funded my 4 years of competition, and 1980 was pretty sparse, matchwise. 1976, I hadn't yet figured out what was what. altho I delivered A class scores in nearly all of the Columbia matches, and won 2 of the 8, including the Cooper Assault. I'd actually won the night shoot, but the club's timer went on the blink, and they threw out the stage where I'd kicked everybody's butt.
 

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andy said:
so is hitting bumblee bees in flight, while standing on your head. Both are luck shoots.
You just can't say something positive, can you TARD? You always have to be disparaging!
 

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Stillwater said:
You just can't say something positive, can you TARD? You always have to be disparaging!
Holy granola bars!! If ever I have seen a pure case of the pot calling the kettle black, THIS has got to be it! :laugh01: :laugh01:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Over and over andy has posted about how he just wants to show people what can be done with a pistol. This thread was to show what can be done with a pistol in the accuracy arena. The NSL was one of the premeire accuracy events in the world, while it lasted.

One thing about it, my experiences in the precision shooting sports gave me the ability to go to any IPSC match anywhere, any time with the knowledge that I can easily make any shot presented. That's not to say I never miss because I do miss. But it's nice to know I didn't miss because of my technical ability to actually make the shot.

I started IPSC at the age of 45, well past my prime, and I will make Grandmaster. I might be a senior, but I'll have that GM card before I retire. I'll get that card because I can call every shot with certainty at the very instant the gun fires. I'll get the card because I can shoot a group and I know the fundamentals of shooting. I'll get the card in spite of my limited physical ability and my less than stellar speed. I'll get that card, in my golden years, because I know how to shoot and I am driven. I'll get the card because I am not a loser. In my view, continuing to strive for excellence sure beats waxing nostalgic about how things might have been.
 
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