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Discussion Starter #1
I just ordered a Savage Model 10FP-LE2 in .308.

I've heard about doing a barrel break-in.

Is it really worth the time and trouble to do one?

Those of you who have done a barrel break-in on some rifles and not on others, do you REALLY notice a difference in accuracy?

What is the proper technique for a barrel break-in for maximum accuracy?
 

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Everyone has their own views on barrel break-in. I think the most important key to keeping maximum accuracy is a bore brush, bore guide and a quality cleaning rod used carefully.

Gale McMillan (famous barrel maker, now deceased) had these ideas on the subject.

http://www.yarchive.net/gun/barrel/break_in.html

I'm sure that others will offer ideas that we can all benefit from.

RIKA
 

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From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Barrel break-in necessary?
Date: 7 Jan 1997 20:40:25 -0500

As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed break in method A very large number would do more harm than help. The reason you hear of the help in accuracy is because if you chamber barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from 1 to 2 hundred rounds to burn this bur out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smithe would. Another tidbit to consider, Take a 300Win Mag. that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break in procedure for ever 10 barrels the barrel maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break in. no wonder barrel makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please include what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

Gale McMillan

NBSRA IBS,FCSA and NRA Life Member

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From: Gale McMillan <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Good barrels for Rem 700 in .308?
Date: 10 Feb 1996 12:50:53 -0500

Consider this, every round shot in breaking in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break in firing. In other words to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who come up with the break in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel doesn't change because of the break in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion forget it.

Gale McMillan

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From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 700 break in
Date: 8 Aug 1997 00:01:07 -0400

Arthur Sprague wrote:
# On 29 Jul 1997 22:50:26 -0400, [email protected] (John W. Engel)
# wrote:
#
# #This is how (some) benchrester break in barrels, and it does work.
# #The mechanism is that the bore has pores in it (microns in size).
# #If you simply shoot a box or two through it without cleaning, the
# #pores fill up with gilding metal, and stay that way. If you
# #follow the above procedure (and they mean *clean* between shots!),
# #the pores are "smoothed over" with each successive shot. A barrel
# #correctly broken in is MUCH easier to clean than one that is
# #not. If it is a good quality tube, it will also be more accurate.
# #Regards,
# #whit
#
# Well, the range hours here are quite limited. On my first trip I
# managed to fire a whole fourteen rounds, with a thorough cleaning
# after each round. It couldn't hurt! Fun gun! Difficult to think of
# .223 as a battle round after experience with .30-06 and .45ACP, but it
# surely going to be a pleasure to shoot.
# Thanks to all for their advice.

This is total hogwash! It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was If they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point it defiantly will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset bench rest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with HighPower,Silloett,smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as posable preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear.I am even reading about people recommending breaking in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns.

Gale Mc.
 

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I spent about 4 hours on the phone with Gale arguing this subject about a year before he passed. We agreed to disagree but he did admit that break in would lower the flaws in a barrel created by the gun being fired dirty before the barrel was fire hardened...

As RIKA says, there are opinions all across the spectrum about break in. I look at it this way... it works for me and besides a bit of time doing it, it can't hurt.

One round, clean repeat 50 times...


Mike
 

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I tend to break in my barrels on a new rifle, although I really haven't done any testing to determine if it is beneficial or not.

Gut feeling is that group size seemed to shrink. In other words, the first five shots (cleaning between each shot) was substantially larger than with the next five shots (also cleaning between each shot). Would the same thing have happened just by firing five shots, then the next string without cleaning? Beats me.

Cleaning the barrel became noticeably easier and faster after a few firing/cleaning cycles. Again, would that be the case with just firing as much as I wanted and then cleaning? Beats me.

I checked Armalite's site about break in a while back, and they specifically state that using Moly coated bullets greatly helps the break in process. Others will specifically state DO NOT use moly coated bullets for break in. The logic both use seems sound, but no idea who is right. Personally, I use moly bullets whenever possible.

I guess the biggest question is: If you do NOT break in a barrel, can you ruin it? I have heard it stated that yes you will ruin a barrel if it is not properly broken in. But I can't say for certain it is the truth. Maybe a barrel that will only shoot .5 MOA groups is ruined in some people's eyes if it would have been capable of .25 MOA groups. Personally, for me, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. But it does give you pause to think about buying a used rifle, depending on what your attitude is about this situation.

Then on the other hand, I have had a cleaning rod that flexed too much but a mark on the rifling inside a barrel. So obviously due care is needed. This little incident has led me to look harder at using boresnakes exclusively, and ONLY using a rod when there is no other reasonable choice.

Again, buying a used rifle and having the previous owner tell you he cleaned the barrel religiously might not really be good news either.
 

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since nobody can hit 1MOA in the field

and only rarely can they hit better than `1.5 MOA, it's completely irrelevant if a rifle is "only" 1MOA capable, and it probably will never matter at ALL if it's only" capable of 1.5 MOA. A deer's vital zone is at least an 8" crcle, which would be a 500m shot for a 1.5 MOA rifle and an 800 yd shot for the 1 moa rifle. Both are bs, irresponsible SLOB hunter type shots to take. Men are even bigger marks, basically. unless you are taking out a hostage holder, which requires a sub 100m brain shot, basically, for enough likelihood of success, ANY hit on the man's torso suffices, and if it's shtf, any serious hit to the limbs is highly likely to EVENTUALLY result in his death. It might TAKE a week or so, but what do you CARE, hmm?
 

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Wise words of advice from the guy who doesn't care if his rifle rusts.

RIKA
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: since nobody can hit 1MOA in the field

223 fan said:
and only rarely can they hit better than `1.5 MOA, it's completely irrelevant if a rifle is "only" 1MOA capable, and it probably will never matter at ALL if it's only" capable of 1.5 MOA. A deer's vital zone is at least an 8" crcle, which would be a 500m shot for a 1.5 MOA rifle and an 800 yd shot for the 1 moa rifle. Both are bs, irresponsible SLOB hunter type shots to take. Men are even bigger marks, basically. unless you are taking out a hostage holder, which requires a sub 100m brain shot, basically, for enough likelihood of success, ANY hit on the man's torso suffices, and if it's shtf, any serious hit to the limbs is highly likely to EVENTUALLY result in his death. It might TAKE a week or so, but what do you CARE, hmm?
My idea is that you want the rifle itself as accurate as possible (at least 1 MOA capable), because this helps reduce the effect of one variable that can hamper accuracy, and is something that can be controlled by quality manufacture, unlike wind, breath control, trigger control, mirage, temperature, etc, which may change from shot to shot. It's simply a way of starting with the best equipment. In other words, a 1 MOA rifle fired in a light breeze will place the rounds closer together on the target than a 2 MOA rifle in the same breeze. Another example: a 1 MOA rifle might just have that little bit of extra accuracy potential that makes the rifle a little more forgiving of your less-than-perfect breath control.

True, the targets you mention are all larger than 1 MOA, but I am not a "sniper" nor am I a deer hunter, and so the ability to hit small targets even at great ranges is a part of my "sport." Knowing your rifle is more inherently accurate to begin with is a "confidence builder" that let's you know that a flyer is YOU and not the rifle. :)
 

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So does this count as shooting in the field? It should because I'm shooting using my field gear.

I can certainly get damn close to 1 MOA shooting this way consistantly.

Sometimes closer to 1/2MOA and that's even at 600yds.
 

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Nice pic... do yourself a favor... get in line behind that gun. You make yourself a smaller target and you can recover from recoil faster.

Mike
 

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damend close doesn't CUT it. I aint TALKING

group size, I'm talking 90+%, FIRST rd hits, on 1 MOA targets, with a FIGHTING rifle and TYPICAL positions. Prone doesn't work, most of the time, because when you go prone, you can't SEE the target. A bolt action will get you killed in short order, here in the US. The enemy won't be a bunch of ignorant rice farmers and *********, with nothing but iron sighted AK's, (in other words, UNABLE to hit an head on prone man, at 100 yds, except by pure luck. HERE, there are literally millions of men who can reliably hit such a mark at 300m,(given a "ready" firing position) and an exposed, stationary torso, at 500m, WAY too often to be risking BEING such a mark. So it's STUPID to be stationary and in the open, in daylight. At night, a bolt action is just a joke.
 

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blah blah blah BS!- We are talking about barrel break in in general and for a bolt action in particular.

Can't you manage to stick to the frgiin' original topic in some semblance?

If you don't like the topic than stay off the damn thread instead of hijacking and spamming it with your BS.

Here's a good example-If YOU ever REALLY used NIGHT SIGHTS on either a CAR or a regular AR you would know how limiting they are.
You know what happens on most ones on rifles? When you focus on the front one the two rear ponts blur out into 2 faint fuzzy dots. It's not much better on an AK which has the sights a little closer to the same focal plane. And this is from someone using them that has above normal vision.
Now imagine what YOU would end up seeing try to focus them through YOUR glasses. You would be better off using a scope set on low power at night with a thick crosshair.

OK we now return you to your regular GK SPAM-FEST.
:D
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: damend close doesn't CUT it. I aint TALKING

223 fan said:
group size, I'm talking 90+%, FIRST rd hits, on 1 MOA targets, with a FIGHTING rifle and TYPICAL positions. Prone doesn't work, most of the time, because when you go prone, you can't SEE the target. A bolt action will get you killed in short order, here in the US. The enemy won't be a bunch of ignorant rice farmers and *********, with nothing but iron sighted AK's, (in other words, UNABLE to hit an head on prone man, at 100 yds, except by pure luck. HERE, there are literally millions of men who can reliably hit such a mark at 300m,(given a "ready" firing position) and an exposed, stationary torso, at 500m, WAY too often to be risking BEING such a mark. So it's STUPID to be stationary and in the open, in daylight. At night, a bolt action is just a joke.
I almost don't want to join this s***t storm, but I do want to say one thing.

Sniping is a military and/or law enforcement discipline. The only sniping I'll do is against coyotes who have mastered neither iron-sighted AK's nor any other weapon for that matter.

As for the point of your discussion. In general, the sniper discipline can be summed up in one sentence: Visible = dead.

Snipers in Vietnam had an 80% casualty rate. Modern hi-tech computerized equipment can track the bullet path back to the sniper who fired it. The enemy will then open up with all manner of fragmentation ordnance and reduce your "sniper" corpse to small, easily digestible tidbits for the local cockroaches. The Israelis use this tactic to great effect on enemy snipers. Note that at no time will any of the enemy's weapons be rendered less effective by whatever rifle you happened to be holding when they opened fire.
 

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bs, that's IF they HAVE the electronic

crap,IF it'sfunctional, and IF they can bring the fragstuff to bear, in TIME. A good field man will never let that be the case.
 

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point IS, stupe,that OTHER factors matter

a LOT more than the diff between 1 MOA and .5 MOA, benchrest group size, for field shooting. In fact, it's EXTREMELY rare for there to be ANY noticable difference between a 3/4 MOA rifle and one that "only" groups 1.5 MOA, on big game or men. It only "matters" a LITTLE bit on crows and prairie dogs, and anyone who knows jack crap can take hundreds of prairie dogs a day with a .22 rifle, and dozens of crows a day with a shotgun. So much for "needing" long range precision for taking such varmints. I see dozens of prairie dogs within easy .22 PISTOL range, every day, as I drive. I see at least one road killed every day. I see a half dozen on the ROAD, every day. All they do when you drive by is scurry off into the weeds afew feet, stop,raise up and look at you. :)
 

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You really have no clue about long range shooting Tard. Stick to CQB... it's all you've got which isn't saying much.

Mike
 

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Hard Rock said:
Nice pic... do yourself a favor... get in line behind that gun. You make yourself a smaller target and you can recover from recoil faster.

Mike
Mike I am in that position. I'm the one in the background, sorry I should have mentioned that. The guy I'l refer to as "Junior" is the one in the fore ground trying to use my pack as a rest.

Some further things about our position, this is the 600yd line at one of our members farms. It's on the edge of a pasture and we were shooting from under some large trees in one corner on a slight rise.

One thing I found interesting is how little grass/hay will effect bullet travel as my sight picture through the scope was green tinted as we were shooting through the grass. Also having a good scope helps.

GK- Now wait a minute let me clear one thing up the thread here is about barrel break in. Now if you want to compare rifle to shooter when benched the rifle I'm using in that pic will do UNDER 0.5MOA with my handloads for it.
Yes I did break in the barel on that rifle which is a Remington Sendero in .300WM.
 
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