to not be worth much, on animals. Yes, such loads will kill them, but they take 10-30s seconds to do so. If the target was a man, trying to kill you,anything short of a .5 second drooping of his arms is a failure. A good 223 softpoint, from a rifle barrel, RARELY fails to drop men just like that. Maybe once in 50 shootings, with a chest hit. 12 ga slugs fail nearly as often, buckshot fails more often, mostly because a CENTERED hit with it is pretty unusual.